I recently purchased a Hunter 27. The head will fill up with sea water if I leave the seacock open. This happens no matter what position the small adjustment handle on the head. Is the head broken? I am new to this. Any help would be greatly appreciated! John Giaccio
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I don't think it should
fill up on dry bowl, but mine sometimes does if I don't make sure that the siphon action is broken by pumping a couple of times with the setting on dry bowl. A new 40 foot Beneteau nearly went down last weekend when the seacock for the head was left open and the bowl set on wet..... The boat had been unattended for 10 days before noticable list toward the bow caused alarm. Quick action by the marina and marine store owner (and good pumps) kept the damage to a minimum. Once the head was entirely below the waterline the water began to come in very quickly. Believe Peggie when she says to close the seacocks when you leave the boat. rb
fill up on dry bowl, but mine sometimes does if I don't make sure that the siphon action is broken by pumping a couple of times with the setting on dry bowl. A new 40 foot Beneteau nearly went down last weekend when the seacock for the head was left open and the bowl set on wet..... The boat had been unattended for 10 days before noticable list toward the bow caused alarm. Quick action by the marina and marine store owner (and good pumps) kept the damage to a minimum. Once the head was entirely below the waterline the water began to come in very quickly. Believe Peggie when she says to close the seacocks when you leave the boat. rb
Install a vented loop in the head intake.
It goes between the pump and the bowl, and should be at least a foot above the waterline at any angle of heel. And keep the seacock closed except when the head is in use! However, water should not come in when the toilet is set to the "dry" mode. Sounds like your dry/flush mechanism has failed and needs replacing. Yours is the perfec texample of why it's suicidal to rely on mechanisms that do have a nasty habit of failing...why you need the vented loop...and why you should ALWAYS keep the seacock closed.
It goes between the pump and the bowl, and should be at least a foot above the waterline at any angle of heel. And keep the seacock closed except when the head is in use! However, water should not come in when the toilet is set to the "dry" mode. Sounds like your dry/flush mechanism has failed and needs replacing. Yours is the perfec texample of why it's suicidal to rely on mechanisms that do have a nasty habit of failing...why you need the vented loop...and why you should ALWAYS keep the seacock closed.
Thank You!
Thank you for your reply to my question. One last thought; can I do without the vented loop and just continue to open and close the seacock only when the head is in use? Thanks again, John Giaccio
Thank you for your reply to my question. One last thought; can I do without the vented loop and just continue to open and close the seacock only when the head is in use? Thanks again, John Giaccio
Need Vented Loop - Maybe
If you're perfect, and never forget to close the thru-hull, you could skip the vented loop. We had this same thread about 2 months ago when I was re-doing my head. Peggy strongly recommended it. I decided to reinstall the vented loop, even though I only leave the thru hull open when pumping. I skipped the vented loop between the macerator pump and the thru hull (I know Peggy: Bad Boy!). I did that because I installed the switch to the macerator, under the dinette seat, right next to the holding tank and the thru hull for discharge. If I can't remember to close it after pumping, I shouldn't be on the water! A further note: The water between the head pump and the bowl should be clean, salty, but clean. So no odor there. Other than the expense, there's really no reason not to put a vented loop there. But that's also part of the reason why I skipped the vented loop after the macerator pump. I wanted to minimize the hoses that could hold waste, and stink. Since it is almost impossible to get all of the waste "over the hump" past the vented loop when using the macerator to discharge, I figured I might decrease smelliness (is that a word?), by skipping the discharge vented loop. Time will tell.
If you're perfect, and never forget to close the thru-hull, you could skip the vented loop. We had this same thread about 2 months ago when I was re-doing my head. Peggy strongly recommended it. I decided to reinstall the vented loop, even though I only leave the thru hull open when pumping. I skipped the vented loop between the macerator pump and the thru hull (I know Peggy: Bad Boy!). I did that because I installed the switch to the macerator, under the dinette seat, right next to the holding tank and the thru hull for discharge. If I can't remember to close it after pumping, I shouldn't be on the water! A further note: The water between the head pump and the bowl should be clean, salty, but clean. So no odor there. Other than the expense, there's really no reason not to put a vented loop there. But that's also part of the reason why I skipped the vented loop after the macerator pump. I wanted to minimize the hoses that could hold waste, and stink. Since it is almost impossible to get all of the waste "over the hump" past the vented loop when using the macerator to discharge, I figured I might decrease smelliness (is that a word?), by skipping the discharge vented loop. Time will tell.
Ron, intake seawater does stink...
And what to do about intake odor is a major issue for boats in salt water. Sea water is alive with animal and vegetable micro-organisms. When the boat is left to sit, water trapped in the head intake stagnates...the little critters in it die and decay...and stink. A cure for it is described in the article "Intake Odor" in the Head Mistress Reference Library. As for your not wanting to leave sewage in your discharge line after dumping you tank...you don't put enough flush water through your toilet to rinse the tank after you dump it? And then dump that? Shame on you...
Holding tanks need to be rinsed! And as for omitting the vented loop in that line...you'll never pass an insurance survey. But if you want to risk losing your boat till you need one, that's up to you.
And what to do about intake odor is a major issue for boats in salt water. Sea water is alive with animal and vegetable micro-organisms. When the boat is left to sit, water trapped in the head intake stagnates...the little critters in it die and decay...and stink. A cure for it is described in the article "Intake Odor" in the Head Mistress Reference Library. As for your not wanting to leave sewage in your discharge line after dumping you tank...you don't put enough flush water through your toilet to rinse the tank after you dump it? And then dump that? Shame on you...
Holding tanks need to be rinsed! And as for omitting the vented loop in that line...you'll never pass an insurance survey. But if you want to risk losing your boat till you need one, that's up to you.It's your boat, but...
I'd install the vented loop. Humans are far too fallible and Murphy was an optimist.
I'd install the vented loop. Humans are far too fallible and Murphy was an optimist.
Peggy, you amuse me!
Peggy, do you really think an insurance survey will catch the missing vented loop between macerator and thru-hull? I wish the surveyors were that good, my experience is rather the opposite, with a few (very few!) exceptions. But more importantly, this is a squabble, without merit! The intake water, between the thru hull and the head hand pump cannot be through a vented loop, due to the fact that the vented loop would break the vacuum that is needed to bring raw water in. All life is risk. So I have to trust that that the toilet valve works. NOT! I close that thru hull. And I will trust myself to close a thru hull, especially one that doesn't have to be open except for a very short, specific purpose, like pumping out. It seems much safer than the intake-headpump-hose, that has to be opened any time you want to flush. Of course, to be perfectly safe, I could leave my boat on jack-stands! However, as I stated in my original post, the experts (including, respectfully you) recommend the vented loop. PS: On a boat the age of mine, the insurance company doesn't even require ongoing surveys, unless I claim my boat is worth over $40,000. I wish!
Peggy, do you really think an insurance survey will catch the missing vented loop between macerator and thru-hull? I wish the surveyors were that good, my experience is rather the opposite, with a few (very few!) exceptions. But more importantly, this is a squabble, without merit! The intake water, between the thru hull and the head hand pump cannot be through a vented loop, due to the fact that the vented loop would break the vacuum that is needed to bring raw water in. All life is risk. So I have to trust that that the toilet valve works. NOT! I close that thru hull. And I will trust myself to close a thru hull, especially one that doesn't have to be open except for a very short, specific purpose, like pumping out. It seems much safer than the intake-headpump-hose, that has to be opened any time you want to flush. Of course, to be perfectly safe, I could leave my boat on jack-stands! However, as I stated in my original post, the experts (including, respectfully you) recommend the vented loop. PS: On a boat the age of mine, the insurance company doesn't even require ongoing surveys, unless I claim my boat is worth over $40,000. I wish!
You don't amuse me, Ron.......
...I believe Peggy said the vented loop goes between BETWEEN the PUMP and BOWL, not between the intake seacock and the pump. Please, get your information right before you lecture another, and mis-inform those learning to be better sailors.
...I believe Peggy said the vented loop goes between BETWEEN the PUMP and BOWL, not between the intake seacock and the pump. Please, get your information right before you lecture another, and mis-inform those learning to be better sailors.
Explanation for Joe:
I don't want to get involved in personal attacks. I'm not going to respond to this thread after this post, since apparently some have taken offense by my discussion, despite my attempts to give meaningful advice, and credit to Peggy for her help. I've enjoyed the participation in this site and don't want that to end. If there is confusion, it is perhaps because some have not followed all of the prevous discussions about the vented loop and head upgrading, much of which was on site a month or so ago. As I stated in my post, Peggy has previously stated (look it up in archives if you don't believe me) that you cannot put a vented loop between the intake and the pump. I agree. It's a matter of simple physics and gas laws. The vacuum that the head pump creates to suck in the water, would be defeated by the vented loop. You can put one between the pump and the bowl. Good idea. But, it means that there is no vented loop protecting the water between the intake and the valve and pump. Not a good idea, but there's no choice. Solution: Keep thru hull closed. My comment is that the lack of a vented loop between a macerator pump and thru hull, is no more dangerous than between the intake and head pump. In either case, keep the thru hull closed and there is no danger. Keep it open, and there is risk. Rather simple. Just my opinion, worth at least what what you paid for it.
I don't want to get involved in personal attacks. I'm not going to respond to this thread after this post, since apparently some have taken offense by my discussion, despite my attempts to give meaningful advice, and credit to Peggy for her help. I've enjoyed the participation in this site and don't want that to end. If there is confusion, it is perhaps because some have not followed all of the prevous discussions about the vented loop and head upgrading, much of which was on site a month or so ago. As I stated in my post, Peggy has previously stated (look it up in archives if you don't believe me) that you cannot put a vented loop between the intake and the pump. I agree. It's a matter of simple physics and gas laws. The vacuum that the head pump creates to suck in the water, would be defeated by the vented loop. You can put one between the pump and the bowl. Good idea. But, it means that there is no vented loop protecting the water between the intake and the valve and pump. Not a good idea, but there's no choice. Solution: Keep thru hull closed. My comment is that the lack of a vented loop between a macerator pump and thru hull, is no more dangerous than between the intake and head pump. In either case, keep the thru hull closed and there is no danger. Keep it open, and there is risk. Rather simple. Just my opinion, worth at least what what you paid for it.
Ron, the idea is to keep water out of the bowl...
It's the bowl that overflows, not the pump, so it doesn't matter that water can rise in the intake as far as the pump. However, about 90% of the time, whether or not a vented loop is installed in the intake isn't nearly as important as having an arch in the intake line that's at least a foot above the waterline so that water rising IN the intake can't get over the arch and down into the bowl. Only in the event a siphon tries to start does a vented loop become important. And siphons do occur. Although a vented loop can't stop "ram water" while it's being rammed up a hose, it will prevent a siphon started by ram water from continuing to flood the bowl after the pressure ceases. Fwiw, I've been in the marine sanitation business for about 15 years. If you think some of my advice is amusing, some of "creative sanitation system solutions" I've seen boat owners come up with over the years are downright hilarious! As for insurance surveys...insurance companies are kinda picky about the surveyors they use 'cuz they're betting thousands of dollars against a few hundred in premiums that a boat a) isn't likely to sink or fall apart, and b) is actually worth what they've agreed to pay off if it does. In fact, if you want a good surveyor for a pre-purchase, one of your best sources is a major yacht insurance carrier (NOT State Farm, Allstate etc).
It's the bowl that overflows, not the pump, so it doesn't matter that water can rise in the intake as far as the pump. However, about 90% of the time, whether or not a vented loop is installed in the intake isn't nearly as important as having an arch in the intake line that's at least a foot above the waterline so that water rising IN the intake can't get over the arch and down into the bowl. Only in the event a siphon tries to start does a vented loop become important. And siphons do occur. Although a vented loop can't stop "ram water" while it's being rammed up a hose, it will prevent a siphon started by ram water from continuing to flood the bowl after the pressure ceases. Fwiw, I've been in the marine sanitation business for about 15 years. If you think some of my advice is amusing, some of "creative sanitation system solutions" I've seen boat owners come up with over the years are downright hilarious! As for insurance surveys...insurance companies are kinda picky about the surveyors they use 'cuz they're betting thousands of dollars against a few hundred in premiums that a boat a) isn't likely to sink or fall apart, and b) is actually worth what they've agreed to pay off if it does. In fact, if you want a good surveyor for a pre-purchase, one of your best sources is a major yacht insurance carrier (NOT State Farm, Allstate etc).
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