We have owned our Legend 37.5 for about 2 months now. On 2 occasions, after leaving the boat unattended for over a week, we returned to find the toilet full of liquid waste (thankfully it did not over flow). I have not measured,, but think the holding tank is slightly higher then the toilet. All the hoses and holding tank are new. Among the spare parts the previous owner left on the boat was a head rebuild kit. I have never had this problem with other boats I have owned, so have never looked into this. Is ther an anti back-flow valve of some type built into marine toilets? Could this also be a clogged vent problem? It won't be difficult to install a valve in the waste hose between the toilet and the holding tank, but if possible I would rather fix it the correct way, then have rube-goldberg valves all over the boat.
- Status
Let's apply a little logic...
Unless the tank is full to overflowing, waste cannot jump up into the tank intake fitting and run back toward the toilet. Therefore, water is coming in from somewhere and either fillling up the tank, or filling up the toilet. Now...where on earth do you suppose that water is coming from? Water outside the boat will always try to seek its own level INside the boat when it can find an open hole in the boat below the waterline in which it can rise. How do you prevent this problem? Well...holes below the waterline are equipped with valves called seacocks. When seacocks are open, the holes are open...when seacocks are closed, the holes are closed. So how do you prevent your toilet or holding tank from filling up with seawater, and possibly sinking your boat? Altogether now, class..YOU tell him...
Unless the tank is full to overflowing, waste cannot jump up into the tank intake fitting and run back toward the toilet. Therefore, water is coming in from somewhere and either fillling up the tank, or filling up the toilet. Now...where on earth do you suppose that water is coming from? Water outside the boat will always try to seek its own level INside the boat when it can find an open hole in the boat below the waterline in which it can rise. How do you prevent this problem? Well...holes below the waterline are equipped with valves called seacocks. When seacocks are open, the holes are open...when seacocks are closed, the holes are closed. So how do you prevent your toilet or holding tank from filling up with seawater, and possibly sinking your boat? Altogether now, class..YOU tell him...
Joy of Learning
One of the joys of boat ownership is learning all the little things that keeps your boat operating. One of these is to locate all of your through hulls and their associated sea cocks and close them when you leave the boat and open them when you are getting ready to go out. I have a set routine of checking the sea cocks, oil levels, raw water strainer etc. I try to accomplish these things before everyone else arrives at the boat. A good place to get a list of things to check for your boat is a charter company that has a boat like yours in charter, they will have a check list that they put their customers through prior to handing the keys over.
One of the joys of boat ownership is learning all the little things that keeps your boat operating. One of these is to locate all of your through hulls and their associated sea cocks and close them when you leave the boat and open them when you are getting ready to go out. I have a set routine of checking the sea cocks, oil levels, raw water strainer etc. I try to accomplish these things before everyone else arrives at the boat. A good place to get a list of things to check for your boat is a charter company that has a boat like yours in charter, they will have a check list that they put their customers through prior to handing the keys over.
Well, darn...
It looks as if the class is gonna let me down...by now I expected a whole chorus of: "close the seacocks when you leave the boat!!" Lord knows I've worked hard enough at teaching 'em that.
You've already experienced the reason why you should NEVER leave the seacocks open (seacocks are the valves that open and close underwater thru-hulls in the boat) when you're away from the boat. As I pointed out in my first reply, water outside a boat will always try to seek its own level INside the boat when there's an opening through which it can rise. You're extremely lucky that either your macerator slowed down the water rising in your tank, or the top of your toilet bowl is a little above the waterline...'cuz water will rise in both the tank discharge line and the head intake line to waterline on the boat...and if it succeeds in starting a siphon, will keep on flowing even longer. A seacock left open has sunk more than one boat in its slip. There is something you can do to protect your boat from a siphon--install two vented loops: one in the head intake between the pump and the bowl (if you put it between the thru-hull and the pump, the toilet can't prime), and one in the tank discharge line between the macerator and the thru-hull. Both should be at least a foot above the waterline at any angle of heel. However, a vented loop will not protect the boat if water is being forced up a hose. So the ONLY safe course is to keep all seacocks closed except when actually in use...and especially while underway. "Ram water" can fill the tank or the toilet in minutes, and vented loop won't stop it. And NEVER rely on the dry/flush valve in your toilet to prevent water from coming into the bowl...dry/flush valves have a higher failure rate than dot.com startups. Yes, I know it's a PITA to open and close seacocks, and Hunter doesn't make it any easier by putting them in inaccessible places ('cuz seacocks aren't "pretty"). So rely on the vented loops while you're aboard, but *religiously* close ALL the seacocks before leaving the boat.
It looks as if the class is gonna let me down...by now I expected a whole chorus of: "close the seacocks when you leave the boat!!" Lord knows I've worked hard enough at teaching 'em that.
You've already experienced the reason why you should NEVER leave the seacocks open (seacocks are the valves that open and close underwater thru-hulls in the boat) when you're away from the boat. As I pointed out in my first reply, water outside a boat will always try to seek its own level INside the boat when there's an opening through which it can rise. You're extremely lucky that either your macerator slowed down the water rising in your tank, or the top of your toilet bowl is a little above the waterline...'cuz water will rise in both the tank discharge line and the head intake line to waterline on the boat...and if it succeeds in starting a siphon, will keep on flowing even longer. A seacock left open has sunk more than one boat in its slip. There is something you can do to protect your boat from a siphon--install two vented loops: one in the head intake between the pump and the bowl (if you put it between the thru-hull and the pump, the toilet can't prime), and one in the tank discharge line between the macerator and the thru-hull. Both should be at least a foot above the waterline at any angle of heel. However, a vented loop will not protect the boat if water is being forced up a hose. So the ONLY safe course is to keep all seacocks closed except when actually in use...and especially while underway. "Ram water" can fill the tank or the toilet in minutes, and vented loop won't stop it. And NEVER rely on the dry/flush valve in your toilet to prevent water from coming into the bowl...dry/flush valves have a higher failure rate than dot.com startups. Yes, I know it's a PITA to open and close seacocks, and Hunter doesn't make it any easier by putting them in inaccessible places ('cuz seacocks aren't "pretty"). So rely on the vented loops while you're aboard, but *religiously* close ALL the seacocks before leaving the boat.Peggy and folks, Duh! For some reason I expected a real answer on this forum. Just because I said I have owned this boat for about 2 months, doesn't mean I am new to boating. The last time I have been boatless was 1969. I am a CG licensed captain ( I know, my license and a token wil get me on a nyc subway ). I know where all the seacocks are, and would never leave one open. Probably would be easier to call the toilet mfgr and ask about a backflow valve. Chris
You got a real answer
There should be a joker valve--a cup shaped piece of rubber with a slit in the bottom and "lips" on the outside of the bottom--in the discharge fitting of your toilet. It's a backflow preventer...but I wouldn't rely on it. Over time--and not that much time--as waste goes through it from the toilet, the "lips" stretch...it doesn't close tight any more, which means that any backflow can seep through it. But whether the joker valve is doing its job in your case is beside the point. Unless you left the boat--TWICE--with a holding tank that was so full it was overflowing (and unless your tank vent is blocked, it would overflow out the vent before it backed up to the toilet), an open seacock is the ONLY thing that can cause your holding tank to fill up and back up into your toilet There's no way that liquid below the tank intake fitting can jump up into it and flow back into the toilet. However, just because it's ugly is no guarantee that what you saw in the toilet came from your holding tank. Seawater might not stink in the bowl, but the first couple of flushes will...'cuz dead and decaying sea organisms trapped in the intake line and the rim of the bowl smell like rotten eggs. After two weeks, even fresh water can turn pretty rank. If it didn't stink like sewage, and if your toilet uses onboard pressurized fresh water, AND you didn't turn the fresh water off at the breaker, there's a good chance that the water valve has failed and filled up your system with fresh water...in which case be glad if your joker valve is leaking, 'cuz otherwise you'd have come back to a major mess--most of the water in your water tank all over the cabin. You may have a 6-pack license, but I've got 15 years experience with heads and boat owners...and I'll bet a dollar on an open seacock. It may be one that you didn't open, and didn't realize the previous owner did--so it never occured to you to close it...but open nonetheless.
There should be a joker valve--a cup shaped piece of rubber with a slit in the bottom and "lips" on the outside of the bottom--in the discharge fitting of your toilet. It's a backflow preventer...but I wouldn't rely on it. Over time--and not that much time--as waste goes through it from the toilet, the "lips" stretch...it doesn't close tight any more, which means that any backflow can seep through it. But whether the joker valve is doing its job in your case is beside the point. Unless you left the boat--TWICE--with a holding tank that was so full it was overflowing (and unless your tank vent is blocked, it would overflow out the vent before it backed up to the toilet), an open seacock is the ONLY thing that can cause your holding tank to fill up and back up into your toilet There's no way that liquid below the tank intake fitting can jump up into it and flow back into the toilet. However, just because it's ugly is no guarantee that what you saw in the toilet came from your holding tank. Seawater might not stink in the bowl, but the first couple of flushes will...'cuz dead and decaying sea organisms trapped in the intake line and the rim of the bowl smell like rotten eggs. After two weeks, even fresh water can turn pretty rank. If it didn't stink like sewage, and if your toilet uses onboard pressurized fresh water, AND you didn't turn the fresh water off at the breaker, there's a good chance that the water valve has failed and filled up your system with fresh water...in which case be glad if your joker valve is leaking, 'cuz otherwise you'd have come back to a major mess--most of the water in your water tank all over the cabin. You may have a 6-pack license, but I've got 15 years experience with heads and boat owners...and I'll bet a dollar on an open seacock. It may be one that you didn't open, and didn't realize the previous owner did--so it never occured to you to close it...but open nonetheless.
to anwer your question, Bill...
You find each seacock by following the respective hoses to their thru-hulls--which may not be easy if the path is over, under, around and through. But it's important that you do so nonetheless. Not only do you need to find them to open and close them as necessary, but seacocks should be checked regularly to make sure the bedding is in good shape, that hose clamps are still doing their job...and seacocks need to be lubricated occasionally. And there's nothing wrong with taking an indelible market and writing "head," sink," etc on the hose, hull or the seacock itself...'cuz six months from now you prob'ly won't remember which is which.
You find each seacock by following the respective hoses to their thru-hulls--which may not be easy if the path is over, under, around and through. But it's important that you do so nonetheless. Not only do you need to find them to open and close them as necessary, but seacocks should be checked regularly to make sure the bedding is in good shape, that hose clamps are still doing their job...and seacocks need to be lubricated occasionally. And there's nothing wrong with taking an indelible market and writing "head," sink," etc on the hose, hull or the seacock itself...'cuz six months from now you prob'ly won't remember which is which.
Head mistress, but obviously not Miss Manners
You know, I sympathize with Mr. McLoughlin. I found your initial response, Ms. Hall, insultingly pedantic, perhpas evern sarcastic. You do the forum no favor by treating participants this way, and discouraging their future involvement. jv
You know, I sympathize with Mr. McLoughlin. I found your initial response, Ms. Hall, insultingly pedantic, perhpas evern sarcastic. You do the forum no favor by treating participants this way, and discouraging their future involvement. jv
Maybe the Neighbor is Using It
Why use your own when you can go to the boat next door? Hell, they will never figure it out. Ooops I guess I just gave it away.
Why use your own when you can go to the boat next door? Hell, they will never figure it out. Ooops I guess I just gave it away.
Mine does the same thing
I think you are right that the tank in the 37.5 is higher than the head and the seacock closed or open makes no difference on mine. I find that a little vegetable oil fixes things for a while. It also makes little or difference how full the tank is. I would like to know if your boat has a Y valve or if it is like mine and will not pump via the macerator with the deck fitting loose. I rebuilt mine once and replaced it once before I found that out.
I think you are right that the tank in the 37.5 is higher than the head and the seacock closed or open makes no difference on mine. I find that a little vegetable oil fixes things for a while. It also makes little or difference how full the tank is. I would like to know if your boat has a Y valve or if it is like mine and will not pump via the macerator with the deck fitting loose. I rebuilt mine once and replaced it once before I found that out.
Same Solution
Chris, I have had the same solution in our head. It is NOT seawater for sure. The waste line form the head to the tank is an upward incline. I think it is standard procedure to take the path of least resistance. It is logical to me, if a line that is inclined is full of sewage and the check / joker valve seeps or leaks, the sewage will appear in your head after it sits a while. The cure for this would be to have the line go straight up to a height above the entrance to your tank and then downhill the rest of the way. The hose would then drain into the tank. From what I can see on our 37 the line is run in a fashion you would anicipate. As straight as possible, but up and down. I read, in the info that came from JABSCO, calculate so many flushes per foot of sewer hose. This displaces any sewage with seawater in the hose. Maybe next week you will return to seawater instead. If so, your joker valve is seeping. As you said in your original post, I would also double check the vent. A blocked vent will cause pressure in the tank. You would know this though by the presence of pressure when removing your pump out screw cap fitting. A scary thought, if pressure was present! We have tales of horror about this. I'm sorry you didn't get more positive responses about this issue. It would also be nice for you to get some input from owners of the same exact boat that have had similiar problems. good luck Mike D
Chris, I have had the same solution in our head. It is NOT seawater for sure. The waste line form the head to the tank is an upward incline. I think it is standard procedure to take the path of least resistance. It is logical to me, if a line that is inclined is full of sewage and the check / joker valve seeps or leaks, the sewage will appear in your head after it sits a while. The cure for this would be to have the line go straight up to a height above the entrance to your tank and then downhill the rest of the way. The hose would then drain into the tank. From what I can see on our 37 the line is run in a fashion you would anicipate. As straight as possible, but up and down. I read, in the info that came from JABSCO, calculate so many flushes per foot of sewer hose. This displaces any sewage with seawater in the hose. Maybe next week you will return to seawater instead. If so, your joker valve is seeping. As you said in your original post, I would also double check the vent. A blocked vent will cause pressure in the tank. You would know this though by the presence of pressure when removing your pump out screw cap fitting. A scary thought, if pressure was present! We have tales of horror about this. I'm sorry you didn't get more positive responses about this issue. It would also be nice for you to get some input from owners of the same exact boat that have had similiar problems. good luck Mike D
Patrick, Mike,Chris...and "MA"
Your tank isn't backing up. If the head discharge hose runs uphill from the toilet, flush water--and waste, if you don't flush long enough to send bowl contents "over the top" and rinse the hose every time--will be left in the hose. If the joker valve is leaking, it will seep back into the bowl. Even if you do flush completely every time, the inside of the hose gets dirty...sea water calcium carbonates and urine crystals build up in the hose, creating a rough surface that collects bits of waste...so whatever is backing up into your toilet will be dirty. And because it's dirty, it misleads you into believing that your tank is backing up. Ideally, in any head installation that goes overboard, whether before or after a tank, there should be a vented loop immediately after the toilet. Water/waste will always be left between the bowl and the top of the loop. If the joker valve is leaking, it can seep back into the bowl. The cure in both cases is at least annual--more often if necessary--replacement of the joker valve. In either situation, unless the uphill hose run is long enough for the volume left standing in it to equal a bowlful, there shouldn't be enough left standing in it to fill up the bowl. Even a pressurized tank can't cause the tank to back up unless the tank is full to overflowing. But it CAN create enough backpressure to keep the head discharge hose full...and if the joker valve is leaking, it will seep back into the bowl. However, that much backpressure when flushing should be obvious to anyone using the head. Pat, I don't see how putting oil down the head can have any effect on either of the above situations unless your joker valve is so old, dry and brittle that the oil temporarily softens it up enough to close for a while. Chris, my first reply was an attempt at humor that failed. We had so many questions this summer from new boat owners about why holding tanks are filling up (they were leaving the seacocks open) that after a while, at least 3 people had answered "close the seacocks!" before I saw the question. I was inviting 'em to do it again, but it didn't quite come off the way I intended. As for you "MA," I do step in it occasionally...but at least I sign my name to it.
Your tank isn't backing up. If the head discharge hose runs uphill from the toilet, flush water--and waste, if you don't flush long enough to send bowl contents "over the top" and rinse the hose every time--will be left in the hose. If the joker valve is leaking, it will seep back into the bowl. Even if you do flush completely every time, the inside of the hose gets dirty...sea water calcium carbonates and urine crystals build up in the hose, creating a rough surface that collects bits of waste...so whatever is backing up into your toilet will be dirty. And because it's dirty, it misleads you into believing that your tank is backing up. Ideally, in any head installation that goes overboard, whether before or after a tank, there should be a vented loop immediately after the toilet. Water/waste will always be left between the bowl and the top of the loop. If the joker valve is leaking, it can seep back into the bowl. The cure in both cases is at least annual--more often if necessary--replacement of the joker valve. In either situation, unless the uphill hose run is long enough for the volume left standing in it to equal a bowlful, there shouldn't be enough left standing in it to fill up the bowl. Even a pressurized tank can't cause the tank to back up unless the tank is full to overflowing. But it CAN create enough backpressure to keep the head discharge hose full...and if the joker valve is leaking, it will seep back into the bowl. However, that much backpressure when flushing should be obvious to anyone using the head. Pat, I don't see how putting oil down the head can have any effect on either of the above situations unless your joker valve is so old, dry and brittle that the oil temporarily softens it up enough to close for a while. Chris, my first reply was an attempt at humor that failed. We had so many questions this summer from new boat owners about why holding tanks are filling up (they were leaving the seacocks open) that after a while, at least 3 people had answered "close the seacocks!" before I saw the question. I was inviting 'em to do it again, but it didn't quite come off the way I intended. As for you "MA," I do step in it occasionally...but at least I sign my name to it.
Peg, Patrick, Mike, and JV Thanks to all, That was great feedback. problem sounds like the joker valve, but I like Mikes idea about raising a loop in the hose. Patrick, I have no "Y" valve. Overboard from tank via mascerator. What did you mean by "loose fitting on deck"? The tank may have been close to full the first time, but certainly not the second, and I am sure there were no seacocks left open. Again, thanks to all!
?
Peggy, I don't understand you comment; my initials are jv; MA is my state. If you care to pursue this, email me at jvisser@altavista.net. jv
Peggy, I don't understand you comment; my initials are jv; MA is my state. If you care to pursue this, email me at jvisser@altavista.net. jv
Deck pumpout fitting cap
is what I meant. -- " if it is like mine and will not pump via the macerator with the deck fitting loose. I rebuilt my "mascerator pump" once and replaced it once before I found that out." Apparently, if the cap is loose and leaks air, the mascerator pump will not pump out the holding tank - it sucks air instead. I mentioned this as something to check in the event that you have trouble pumping out the tank. I think that the problem you originally described is a result of a problem with the joker valve leaking (as someone else mentioned before). I wonder if an additional check valve would fix this or if I should just let it be and replace the joker valve.
is what I meant. -- " if it is like mine and will not pump via the macerator with the deck fitting loose. I rebuilt my "mascerator pump" once and replaced it once before I found that out." Apparently, if the cap is loose and leaks air, the mascerator pump will not pump out the holding tank - it sucks air instead. I mentioned this as something to check in the event that you have trouble pumping out the tank. I think that the problem you originally described is a result of a problem with the joker valve leaking (as someone else mentioned before). I wonder if an additional check valve would fix this or if I should just let it be and replace the joker valve.
Replace the joker valve, Pat
At least annually...more often if necessary. And btw...a y-valve in the pumpout line, instead of just a wye or tee fitting, would solve the problem of the macerator sucking air if the deck plate cap is loose. A y-valve, unless it's left in the "dump" position, would also act as backup in case the seacock is accidentally left open.
At least annually...more often if necessary. And btw...a y-valve in the pumpout line, instead of just a wye or tee fitting, would solve the problem of the macerator sucking air if the deck plate cap is loose. A y-valve, unless it's left in the "dump" position, would also act as backup in case the seacock is accidentally left open.
Not the answer I wanted Peggy
but thanks for the info. We do appreciate your help. Any tips on how to do the job? Meanwhile - I will check the archives.
but thanks for the info. We do appreciate your help. Any tips on how to do the job? Meanwhile - I will check the archives.
Replacing a joker valve is easy, Pat
It's in the head discharge fitting...in fact, forms the gasket between the fitting and the pump. All you have to do to replace it is removing the fitting--no need to take the hose off it--by removing a couple of screws...take the joker valve out, put a new one in, and put the fitting back on. Joker valves cost about $8...should take you all of 10 minutes to do. However-- If you've never even replaced your joker valve in several years, how long has it been since you've rebuilt the toilet? Your comment and question lead to believe, never. If the head is more than 2-3 years old, the pump seals have to be just about worn out by now....but you prob'ly don't notice that your head has gotten less and less efficient, because you use it ever day...kinda like you don't notice your wife is getting older 'cuz you see her every day. But if it's been several years since you've seen your brother, you see a big change in him. Same is true of machinery...One day, you use a new head on someone else's boat and notice how much better it works than yours does, especially if you've put solids or paper in it. If it's another brand or a later model of the one you have, you prob'ly write it off to a "better toilet" or "big improvements in newer models"...when in fact, the only difference is: yours is badly worn and theirs is working to specs. As a head becomes less and less efficient--less flush water, less pump pressure due to seals that don't seal completely any more--the greater the potential for clogs. A rebuild kit includes a new joker valve...I strongly urge you to bite the bullet and do the whole job--if for no other reason than it's a LOT more pleasant to do when the toilet is clean than it is when the bowl is full and won't go down.
It's in the head discharge fitting...in fact, forms the gasket between the fitting and the pump. All you have to do to replace it is removing the fitting--no need to take the hose off it--by removing a couple of screws...take the joker valve out, put a new one in, and put the fitting back on. Joker valves cost about $8...should take you all of 10 minutes to do. However-- If you've never even replaced your joker valve in several years, how long has it been since you've rebuilt the toilet? Your comment and question lead to believe, never. If the head is more than 2-3 years old, the pump seals have to be just about worn out by now....but you prob'ly don't notice that your head has gotten less and less efficient, because you use it ever day...kinda like you don't notice your wife is getting older 'cuz you see her every day.
But if it's been several years since you've seen your brother, you see a big change in him. Same is true of machinery...One day, you use a new head on someone else's boat and notice how much better it works than yours does, especially if you've put solids or paper in it. If it's another brand or a later model of the one you have, you prob'ly write it off to a "better toilet" or "big improvements in newer models"...when in fact, the only difference is: yours is badly worn and theirs is working to specs. As a head becomes less and less efficient--less flush water, less pump pressure due to seals that don't seal completely any more--the greater the potential for clogs. A rebuild kit includes a new joker valve...I strongly urge you to bite the bullet and do the whole job--if for no other reason than it's a LOT more pleasant to do when the toilet is clean than it is when the bowl is full and won't go down.- Status