Head backflow problems

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IanJ

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Nov 7, 2008
152
Hunter 31 Port Royal, CA
I have a regular hand pump head on my H31, that was new about a year ago. I am noticing that, although flushed and pumped dry, after about twelve hours a backflow is coming, whereas the yellow water is filling up the bowl again. Anyone any ideas on this one?
 

IanJ

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Nov 7, 2008
152
Hunter 31 Port Royal, CA
I am not sure what the joker valve is, but the head was brand new about two years ago. Does that make sense?
 

IanJ

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Nov 7, 2008
152
Hunter 31 Port Royal, CA
Ok, just read up on it. So this is almost an annual refit?
Thanks guys
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
Was the head a Jabsco? If it is you probably need to plan on replacing the "joker" every year or two. You need to be very careful with the Jabsco's not to strip out the screws from over tightening.
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
7,090
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
.....or you can purchase a quality manual head like a Raritan Marine unit.
That's a pretty good impersonation of Peggy Hall!

Could be that there's just something stuck across the valve; or, the vent is clogged, and you're pressurizing the tank when you flush, and the pressure is pushing the tank contents back.

I would:

a. check that the vent it clear;
b. flush a bunch of water through - like a few gallons.

My joker valve is at least 12 years old, and works fine. It could be older. When I go the boat there was an unused rebuild kit included.

When you flush, flush lots of water.
 
Dec 2, 1999
15,184
Hunter Vision-36 Rio Vista, CA.
Jviss: We have an owner that has spent over $600 on rebuilding these crap-o toilets. This just has been the majority of the Jabsco-crap-o toilets on this site.

Everyone gets lucky sometime. :)
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
7,090
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Jviss: We have an owner that has spent over $600 on rebuilding these crap-o toilets. This just has been the majority of the Jabsco-crap-o toilets on this site.

Everyone gets lucky sometime. :)
Mine's a Wilcox Crittenden Headmate (now owned by Thetford).

I had a running argument with Peggy about this, and now I'm just seeing how long this thing lasts with just normal use: normal being always flushing lots of water. We flush with sea water. I have a rebuild kit if I ever need to rebuild it. Meanwhile it just keeps going and going....

The only issue is that the cam/vacuum breaker finger (13,14) is worn, and you occasionally have to cycle it to make it work. Not usually though. Those parts are not in the kit. Some day I'll take it all apart and fix it.

http://www.thetford.com/HOME/PARTS/PermanentToilets/HeadmatePartsNEW/tabid/739/Default.aspx

But anyway, why would a Jabsco joker valve be any worse than a W-C joker valve?
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,204
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
OK, do you pump it about five times after it is dry to get the flow really out?
I use the head about 150 + days per year. I replace the joker about every six to nine months or when I notice backflow or poor pumping action. I have used a variety of joker valves but prefer the Jabsco. I lubricate the pump every four to six months. I use a cup of white vinegar when I leave the boat and flush it through after a minute or so with fresh water.
BTW, I am the guy Steve refers to and yes, I have over $600 in the Jabsco aft head in about 12+ years. Like, way over; try a grand. In fact, only the bowl is original. However, I must say that the newer pumps are working great and have a couple of years on them without issues, so I am in no big rush to replace the heads. Besides, you get kinda attached to them after having to hug them during the many repairs...
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
7,090
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
OK, do you pump it about five times after it is dry to get the flow really out?
I use the head about 150 + days per year. I replace the joker about every six to nine months or when I notice backflow or poor pumping action. I have used a variety of joker valves but prefer the Jabsco. I lubricate the pump every four to six months. I use a cup of white vinegar when I leave the boat and flush it through after a minute or so with fresh water.
BTW, I am the guy Steve refers to and yes, I have over $600 in the Jabsco aft head in about 12+ years. Like, way over; try a grand. In fact, only the bowl is original. However, I must say that the newer pumps are working great and have a couple of years on them without issues, so I am in no big rush to replace the heads. Besides, you get kinda attached to them after having to hug them during the many repairs...
Wow. I've spent $ZERO on mine in twelve years.

I flush it with lots of water - meaning, while it's wet, not after it's dry. I only pump in dry mode enough to empty the bowl.

I don't get the vinegar part. Why does that help?

I don't use mine as much as you - less than 50 days per year.
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,204
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Answers

Wow. I've spent $ZERO on mine in twelve years.
I flush it with lots of water - meaning, while it's wet, not after it's dry. I only pump in dry mode enough to empty the bowl.
I don't get the vinegar part. Why does that help?
I don't use mine as much as you - less than 50 days per year.
1. Yours isn't a Jabsco. That Wilcox is a pretty decent head.
2. Pumping dry will move waste a long way if the pump is in good shape. It conserves holding tank capacity; makes no difference if overboard.
3. Vinegar helps control calcium build up and will make the hoses last longer & the components like the joker valve too. Just flush it after using and don't let it sit for more than a minute or so in the lines. FYI: I also use it once a year in the raw-water intake of the engine.
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
7,090
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
2. Pumping dry will move waste a long way if the pump is in good shape. It conserves holding tank capacity; makes no difference if overboard.
I don't get that. How can it move waste without water?

3. Vinegar helps control calcium build up and will make the hoses last longer & the components like the joker valve too. Just flush it after using and don't let it sit for more than a minute or so in the lines.
What calcium? I don't buy that a spritz of vinegar does anything good. How does vinegar help rubber components? And make them last longer? Baloney! And, it has apparently not been helping the longevity your joker valves! :)

I also don't get the fresh water thing.

Oh well, to each his own.
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
I don't get that. How can it move waste without water? What calcium? I don't buy that a spritz of vinegar does anything good. How does vinegar help rubber components? And make them last longer? Baloney! And, it has apparently not been helping the longevity your joker valves! :) I also don't get the fresh water thing. Oh well, to each his own.
Somebody has to say it: You should go over and read all of the posts on the Marine Plumbing and Sanitation forum before you make your next post on this topic. There seems to be alot you do not know, and before you poo off everything/everyone, you should know a bit more than you appear to- according to your responses.
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
7,090
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Somebody has to say it: You should go over and read all of the posts on the Marine Plumbing and Sanitation forum before you make your next post on this topic. There seems to be alot you do not know, and before you poo off everything/everyone, you should know a bit more than you appear to- according to your responses.
There's no need to get nasty just because someone doesn't buy into the conventional wisdom on marine sanitation. I've read all of that and more. I refute all of that nonsense about flushing vinegar through the head, and using fresh water, etc., based on 12 years of experience trouble free operation. Why don't you make a statement of substance that you can back up rather than trying to be a bully?

You should put up or shut up.

Really, I don't get the nastiness and hostility. I don't think personal attacks are appropriate in this forum.
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,204
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
I don't get that. How can it move waste without water?

What calcium? I don't buy that a spritz of vinegar does anything good. How does vinegar help rubber components? And make them last longer? Baloney! And, it has apparently not been helping the longevity your joker valves! :)

I also don't get the fresh water thing.

Oh well, to each his own.
1. Air pressure will move the waste.
2. If you don't get any build up, you can certainly skip it. I do find if every time I leave the boat and give it the vinegar treatment, I get a lot less build up over time. The vinegar most certainly does not 'help' the rubber components, probably the opposite, but it does help keep the build up on the joker valve that effectively reduces the efficiency of the seal.
3. You are entirely correct about fresh water. Certainly, Peggie used to remind us it made no difference at all. But, I find it helps to leave the head in better shape when I return and a cup of fresh water instead of salt won't hurt anything, so in my mind, why not?
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
There's no need to get nasty just because someone doesn't buy into the conventional wisdom on marine sanitation. I've read all of that and more. I refute all of that nonsense about flushing vinegar through the head, and using fresh water, etc., based on 12 years of experience trouble free operation. Why don't you make a statement of substance that you can back up rather than trying to be a bully? You should put up or shut up. Really, I don't get the nastiness and hostility. I don't think personal attacks are appropriate in this forum.
You alreay denied sensible/factual input, so as my dad used to say, "to argue with a fool only proves there's two of them". My 2 cents, over and out.
 

jviss

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Feb 5, 2004
7,090
Tartan 3800 20 Westport, MA
Here's my view on this. Caveat: based on experience in the Northeast - Buzzards bay, Rhode Island Sound and environs.

Unless the joker valve or other rubber components are really junk, they should last quite a long time.

The key to keeping a marine head working, trouble free, is to flush it thoroughly. Lots of water. Salt water works fine.

A cup of vinegar flushed into the head and left to sit for a minute or so - is a waste of vinegar. It will do exactly nothing. If you have salt or calcium deposits clogging the hoses, you are probably not flushing with enough water. If you doubt this, take the hose off and scrape some of the deposit out and out it in a glass with vinegar. After 60 seconds at room temperature, how much of the salt and calcium deposits have dissolved? Nearly none. If you wanted to dissolve these deposits in the head parts and hose, you'd have to fill it and leave it for quite some time. The vinegar might have a bad effect on the head parts, depending in what they are made of. Some rubber-like compounds not so bad, some bad.

Likewise, the final flush of fresh water is a waste of fresh water. You would have to fill the passages with fresh and leave it for a long, long time to have any impact on salt or calcium deposits.

Backups can be caused by failed joker valves. Failures can be caused by a breakdown of the material of the valve; by an object or deposit preventing it closing fully; or too much back pressure, as in a pressurize holding tank, due to a clogged air vent, or a too-full holding tank. The first is unfortunate. Apparently the W-C parts are pretty good. The second - flush with lots of water. Might have to disassemble to clear in an extreme case. The last, clear the vent or pump it out. Ours will back up a bit when the tank is nearly full, say to 17 of the 18 gallon capacity.

In my experience I've never had to take the thing apart. I've always been abel to fix backups by flushing more water (to clear an obstruction holding the valve open) or pumping out the holding tank (because it was nearly full). Once we had a clogged vent and the plastic tank was pressurizing when we flushed, and the pressure was causing a backup. Clearing the vent fixed it.

Now, it could well be that in different places, with different water and temperatures you would end up with chronic salt and calcium deposit problems. But, in that case, a cup of vinegar for one minute once a week will not cure it, in my estimation.

As far as pumping in dry mode moving waste through the plumbing - I don't think so. If it works, I'd like to hear the explanation.

(My salt deposit dissolving experience is based on real experiments I have performed while evaluating methods of cleaning and maintaining SCUBA equipment, and evaluating the effectiveness of commercial salt dissolving products, like Salt-X. Acetic acid works, but at room temperature at vinegar dilutions it will do nothing significant).
 
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