Handling the Jib while tacking

Don Guillette · Aug 10, 2011

Jiml: First, there are no neophite questions on the sail trim forum. This forum is designed to provide sail trim info to beginners and intermediate sailors and that is the way I set it up over 12 years ago. Where do you think I get most of the topics that are discussed on the forum - they come from beginners and intermediates. I don't know how many beginner saillors have gained sail trim info from the forum but I'll bet there is at least a few.

On to your question - I have NO idea because I'm not familiar with the configuration you're describing. I've only been on ONE Hunter sailboat in my life and that was Steve Dion's out of Long Beach, Ca BUT there is a resident Hunter sail trim forum expert here that will help you. Alan are you out there and can you help this ship mate?

Alan, why would he have to furl the jib on every tack? Sounds like a lot of extra unneccesary work and suppose he had to tack in an emergancy - like when a cargo ship just came up over the the horizon and is steaming at you at over 35 knots!! Crossing the inbound and outbound shipping lanes coming out of Long Beach, Ca was always a scary experience. Those suckers came out of nowhere and were on you in a flash. Remember how easy it was to race the fat kid in grammer school? These fat boys are a bit different. Fool with them and you're in trouble.

Joe · Aug 10, 2011

Your boat is Cutter rigged.

Don Guillette · Aug 10, 2011

Correction - I don't know where the name Steve came from. I was referring to Rick D who sails a Hunter 40.5 out of Shoreline Marina in long Beach, Ca

RichH · Aug 10, 2011

jimlay said:
Dom;

If it helps, the Jib is on a stay forward to the bow, but there is a secondary stay about halfway between the forward stay and the mast. The first couple of times I tacked with this configuration the jib layed across that secondary stay and it made me uncomfortable because I thought I might be stressing the riggin out.

Might just be a little sail--big sail issue, but if what you described is the way to do it I'll be more comfortable....

Thanks

Jim

Your Hunter 450 is designed and sold as a sloop - single forestay and the mast at about 30% of the overall length back from the bow.
That you have 'a secondary stay' is surprising or may have been added by a previous owner.

FWIW when there are two stays in front of the mast, the one immediately in front of the mast is called the FORESTAY (and the sail used on that stay is called a STAYsail (forestaysail or Stays'l) .... and the stay immediately in front of the forestay is called the headstay (where you fly either the 'topsail' or 'yankee' or (in light winds) a genoa.

Problems with forestay + headstay rigs:
Unless you have a staysail flying (on the forestay) you will have great difficulty in tacking as the headsail will invariably 'catch' or snag on/across the bare forestay. With a bare forestay and jib/genoa flying from the headstay the only way to "tack" is to GYBE through 270° and with the jib/genoa's sheets configured 'out and around' ... so that the jibsheets doent also foul on the forestay and on the headstay. What makes this a BAD configuration is that in attempting to gybe through 270° in a heavy seas state is that its going to 'get exciting' as the boat goes 'across' the eye of the wind and you also have to SIMULTANEOUSLY gybe the main sail. Note - this is how you 'tack' of full rigged 'ship' ... you 'wear it around' by doing a 270° GYBE.
Second biggest problem with 2 forward stays is that there will be a continuous 'tension problem' where each stay will load and unload in response to how much windloading changes on each jib, etc. ... and usually the more forward 'headstay' will become more slack and that in itself will cause 'poor pointing' ability (the boat will heel over, slow down, and begin to skid off of leeward, etc.) and you need running backstays to correct all this 'imbalance' between the two 'forward stays'.

If you can, consider to remove or detach that 'forestay', so that the rig has only one forward stay (the headstay now becomes the forestay) for sailing in 'normal conditions' ... and sail the boat like a sloop. Only when overpowered and needing to significantly reduce sail area, and you need to use the forestay + staysail (lower heeling moment) such as in higher wind ranges and extreme seas then you can furl the headsail, deep reef the mainsail, REATTACH the forestay/stays'l ... and you should have the best combo of both worlds.

If you MUST keep the forestay attached, the you MUST keep the staysail flying for tacking purposes: Begin the tack, TIGHTEN the staysail sheet, turn the boat and allow the headsail to 'lay onto' the staysail and become 'backwinded' or 'windloaded' ... AFTER the bow passes through the eye of the wind, then release the headsail sheet (and it will 'slide across' the staysail and through the 'slot' between the forestay and headstay .... immediately trim the staysail followed by the headsail and then re-trim the staysail. If you had a clubfoot or Hoyt-boom on the staysail which makes the staysail 'self tacking', then all the better as you only have to concentrate on the headsail and its trim.

The best recommendation (if your configuration of double stays in front of the mast is correct) is to: sail the boat like a sloop (as it was designed) by 'storing' that forestay when sailing in normal conditions and only use the forestay/staysail combo in 'snot' weather and with the headsail furled/dowsed AND the mainsail 'deep reefed' ... or when you are on looooooooong tacks (days on end). Otherwise when tacking youre going to have to furl that damn headsail each and every time you tack, or suffer to gybe through 270° instead of tacking. Tacking 'bareheaded' (furled jib/genoa) in 'rollicking' or 'lump' seas is not a good way to tack and can lead to 'getting rolled' in 'blammo sea states'.

If you have an actual pic you can post of this probably 'modified' rig, it would be helpful for any further discussions. I doubt very much that Hunter built a cutter rig on the 450 and probably this was an 'add-on' by a previous owner; a 'true' cutter rig has the mast somewhat near 'amidships' or 40-50% of deck length back from the bow (or bowsprit) to be 'really' effective, otherwise the 'staysail' usually doesnt have enough sail area to be 'truly' effective even in 'blammo' conditions.

Ed Schenck · Aug 11, 2011

I sail a cutter-rig and most often, being very lazy, do not fly the staysail. I have never had a problem tacking the boat in what I consider a "normal" manner. I do my 90 degree turn and hold the original, now windward, sheet tight. What I call backwinding the yankee. About halfway to the new course I release and pull in the new leeward sheet. Easy on my boat because of the narrow cockpit and winches right at hand.

Now this would not be possible with a big jib, something over 120 and close to the deck. For that you are going to have to remove that "forestay". They do make kits for attach/detach so that you can move it back next to the shrouds.

My yankee is oversized, might be 115. But with the high cut clew it slides right through the slot even in light winds. I don't know that I have heard the term forestay used for what I call the baby stay or mid-stay.

Mark Price · Aug 11, 2011

Ed Schenck said:
I sail a cutter-rig and most often, being very lazy, do not fly the staysail. I have never had a problem tacking the boat in what I consider a "normal" manner. I do my 90 degree turn and hold the original, now windward, sheet tight. What I call backwinding the yankee. About halfway to the new course I release and pull in the new leeward sheet. Easy on my boat because of the narrow cockpit and winches right at hand.

Ed- Funny what you consider Lazy and what I consider Lazy...When I'm lazy I furl the jib and only fly the staysail and main. Both then become self tending and I just point the boat where I want to go and do not have to worry about adjusting sheets. I fly all three sails most of the time as I really do not get to do a lot of sustained down wind runs (days on end) when the staysail would blank the jib. I use the same method to tack as you described and in 6 years of sailing the boat (60-70 days per year) I have only had crew 7 times so it is not hard to handle the cutter sail plan single handed.

Don- I might be way off base here but in my experience most people who have Cutter rigged boats do not sail them as cutters and think that the extra sail is a pain in the A**. They seem to want to sail them as sloops and with the exception of Blase they do not seem to get the most out of thier boats. Any insights you have on adjusting the sails on a Cutter verses a sloop would be most welcomed by the strong H37C following we have here.

Mark

Ed Schenck · Aug 11, 2011

But Mark, the staysail is hanked on number one and a bear to flake number two. Then you have to cover it. I would much rather just unfurl/furl. Not to mention that my staysail is original and only of use when sheeted in real tight.

P.S. - just noticing in the photo how small that slot is. Looking at the front of the staysail cover to the headstay, that's a pretty small gap to tack the oversize yankee through. Yet I don't have a problem with it.

Don Guillette · Aug 11, 2011

Mark: I'll have to defer to RichH, Joe from San Diego and Alan as I've only sailed ONCE on a cutter rig and it was a trip!!

A freind of mine and dock neighbor from Long Beach, Ca had a Newport 30 and he wanted to set it up with a cutter rig, which we did. On the day we decided to test it the wind was starting to blow and it had every indication of ending up blowing like stink - which is exactly what happened. We had no idea what we were doing but when we set out the sails the silly boat took off like it never had before. Off in the distance was one of the oil islands that look like condo's so we pointed the boat at it. Eventually the island got bigger and bigger but it seemed like it took forever to get behiind it. We dropped the cutter and sailed back with the main and jib. I never got to go out with him when he was flying the cutter. Frankly and personnaly, I really didn't miss the not having the second experience!!

Joe · Aug 11, 2011

When this subject was discussed recently in another thread, it was suggested that you could rig a second set of lightweight sheets, (like a "jackline") to the headsail's foot near (or just forward of) the inner stay.... kind of like a sheet helper... that would allow the crew to pull the the middle part of the sail through the slot until the wind takes effect.

You would need to insert a cringle or loop to the foot of the sail... attach a couple of light sheets that will pull the clew forward to the stay, allowing the middle of the sail to feed into the slot... the wind will do the rest.

RichH · Aug 11, 2011

Jimlay - from your pic it looks like you have a Hyfield lever - detachable stay connection. If so just detach the forestay and tie it, etc. to a cap shroud, etc. when sailing 'normal'. When you need the staysail instead of the jib/genoa because you cant roll/furl a genoa much beyond 30% area reduction and have any 'good' sail shape, simply dowse/furl the jib/genoa, reconnnect the forestay/staysail ... and youll be 'good-to-go'.

RichH · Aug 11, 2011

Joe said:
When this subject was discussed recently in another thread, it was suggested that you could rig a second set of lightweight sheets, (like a "jackline") to the headsail's foot near (or just forward of) the inner stay.... kind of like a sheet helper... that would allow the crew to pull the the middle part of the sail through the slot until the wind takes effect.

You would need to insert a cringle or loop to the foot of the sail... attach a couple of light sheets that will pull the clew forward to the stay, allowing the middle of the sail to feed into the slot... the wind will do the rest.

This 'line' is called a Tricing Line. If you have any videos of the 1987 Americas Cup series all the boats had tricing lines to help the genoa 'around'. A tricing line is a lightweight line that is attached to somewhere along the foot of a headsail and the tricing line then goes to a block on near the stem ... as you release the sheet you pull the tricing line to 'bunch' the jib/genoa forward (usually around a 'baby stay', etc.). Although tricing lines work, most times they are great PITA ... as it adds 'complexity' to the tacking maneuver; it usually much better to 'roll tack' and 'throw' the jib/genoa across to the other side. The 'problem' with the usage of a tricing line, especially on a BIG sail and small distances between forestay and head stay is that the 'bunched' headsail can inadvertently 'catch' a lot of wind when 'bunched' (and become like a small 'spinnaker' at the very worst time) & bring the boat to a momentary stop (not a good thing in BIG waves).

Mark Price · Aug 11, 2011

Ed Schenck said:
But Mark, the staysail is hanked on number one and a bear to flake number two. Then you have to cover it. I would much rather just unfurl/furl. Not to mention that my staysail is original and only of use when sheeted in real tight.

P.S. - just noticing in the photo how small that slot is. Looking at the front of the staysail cover to the headstay, that's a pretty small gap to tack the oversize yankee through. Yet I don't have a problem with it.

Ed
I'll give you number one but I have a line attached to the hanks and threaded thur the sail so the sail will lay flat and the luff pulls away from the stay when you flake the sail. I just got a new staysail last year and it is loose footed. New main is rigged the same way. It has worked out quite nicely. North Sail is trying to talk me into a larger head sail and a lower cut but I like the current size and cut of the old jib. Will think about it a bit more before I commit.

abaco01 · Aug 22, 2011

My two cents:
Although I didn't order one, my 2001 Hunter 460 (and I assume the 450 series) had a factory option of installing a detachable inner stay. I'm betting your boat came that way from the factory and it should have had all the necessary hardware and running rigging for handling a staysail. Maybe the previous owner removed it. Your mast may still have a messenger line which you could use to install a staysail halyard and then if you have a staysail made you could complete your sail inventory.

I think Hunter's idea was not so much to sail cutter-style with double headsails as it was to give you the ability to sail comfortably in heavier conditions under staysail and reefed main, rather than with a partially furled jib which, I know from experience, doesn't work very well. I wish I'd ordered the inner stay.

I agree with the suggestion to disconnect and stow the inner stay if you don't need it. It will make tacking a lot easier and reduce wear and tear on your headsail. If you're going to leave the inner stay in place, I have one other suggestion to make cleaner tacks: send a crew member up to the bow to stand forward of the head stay and gather in the Genoa as it comes across to get it around the inner stay. I've done this often racing on boats with big Gennys to get the tack done more quickly.

Of course, the downside is you have to have a person leave the safety of the cockpit, so I wouldn't recommend it in rough conditions. Otherwise you'd better be proficient in your MOB drill!

Warren "Doc" Blanchard, S.V. "Banana Wind"

red_dolphin · Aug 22, 2011

Yet another option is available to those lucky enough to have agile foredeck crew members:
** Station one of them at the bow during a tack
** Have them pull like crazy to get the jib through the slot between the stays.
We did that for the Screacher on a Gemini 10.5.
Well, that works for racing.
It should work for cruising as well, assuming you have that agile crew member on the foredeck.

Handling the Jib while tacking

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