I got a H27/83 and I will like to start next season with a marine movil station on it. Somebody with experience on the practical problems of insulating the backstay, ground plane, power supply for a 100 watts Yaesu and tuner? Changing alternator on the 1GM? Any real life experience will be appreciated. Thanks!
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Ed Schenck
See current "HAM" thread. . .
on the "Ask All Sailors" forum here on HOW. And in Photo Forum see the pictures Ron Pearson placed there. These show how to eliminate the need for a counterpoise.
on the "Ask All Sailors" forum here on HOW. And in Photo Forum see the pictures Ron Pearson placed there. These show how to eliminate the need for a counterpoise.
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DICK MCKEE
Aldo.... I'm in the same position...
and I'm leaning to a ICOM SSB with ham capabilities. My first choice was a Yeasu ham radio too. I posted the question on the eHam.net site. If you go to the forums and then to elmers (the folks who give advise) look for New Guy Help question. I got some good advise. Seems that Ham is not the best way to go on a boat,most recommend a HAM enabled SSB. If you want to e-mail me at McKee119@hotmail.com I'll forward you all the researach I've done to this point. Dick McKee S/V Constellation
and I'm leaning to a ICOM SSB with ham capabilities. My first choice was a Yeasu ham radio too. I posted the question on the eHam.net site. If you go to the forums and then to elmers (the folks who give advise) look for New Guy Help question. I got some good advise. Seems that Ham is not the best way to go on a boat,most recommend a HAM enabled SSB. If you want to e-mail me at McKee119@hotmail.com I'll forward you all the researach I've done to this point. Dick McKee S/V Constellation
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Ed Schenck
Keep the discussion here guys, . . . .
because I think it has general appeal. I know that I am interested. Dick, can you summarize what I just read on "New Guy"? Is the only reason for a Ham set the cost? In other words, do you get the marine channels AND all ham bands with the right marine SSB radio(at four times the price)? Which make and model?
because I think it has general appeal. I know that I am interested. Dick, can you summarize what I just read on "New Guy"? Is the only reason for a Ham set the cost? In other words, do you get the marine channels AND all ham bands with the right marine SSB radio(at four times the price)? Which make and model?
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DICK MCKEE
Good Idea Ed...
The reason for the SSB over the HAM is that in the US by FCC regulation is is illegal to transmit on Marine SSB channels from a Ham set. Seems the marine SSB has finer tolerances that the HAM bands. All HAM sets sold in the US must have the Marine SSB frequencies blocked. You can however use a SSB to broadcast on the HAM nets. Thats why I'm in the process of obtaining my HAM technician and then general license. You do loose some HAM bands with SSB, but from what I'v been told not enough to worry about. One additional point. The SSB is apparantly more difficult to use on HAM, but there is a company that modifies the ICOM 710 to make it easier. It has a web site hfradios.com that explains it much better than I can. And finally from all I've read the ground plane is the most important item we will install. We own a 430 and are going to run a 4" copper strap from the stern to mid ships and attach it to a keel bolt. Addditionally I'm gona solder brass screen to the copper under the aft bed and under the galley table. It seems the screen makes the ground plane double in porportion to the size of the screen ie: in our case two 5'x5' sections of screen will act like two 10'x10' sections and provide a great ground plane...Hope this helps Dick McKee S/V Constellation
The reason for the SSB over the HAM is that in the US by FCC regulation is is illegal to transmit on Marine SSB channels from a Ham set. Seems the marine SSB has finer tolerances that the HAM bands. All HAM sets sold in the US must have the Marine SSB frequencies blocked. You can however use a SSB to broadcast on the HAM nets. Thats why I'm in the process of obtaining my HAM technician and then general license. You do loose some HAM bands with SSB, but from what I'v been told not enough to worry about. One additional point. The SSB is apparantly more difficult to use on HAM, but there is a company that modifies the ICOM 710 to make it easier. It has a web site hfradios.com that explains it much better than I can. And finally from all I've read the ground plane is the most important item we will install. We own a 430 and are going to run a 4" copper strap from the stern to mid ships and attach it to a keel bolt. Addditionally I'm gona solder brass screen to the copper under the aft bed and under the galley table. It seems the screen makes the ground plane double in porportion to the size of the screen ie: in our case two 5'x5' sections of screen will act like two 10'x10' sections and provide a great ground plane...Hope this helps Dick McKee S/V Constellation
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Ken Palmer
It's called "Type Acceptance"
An SSB marine transceiver must be approved by the FCC for use aboard a vessel. Ham radio equipment does not require this "type acceptance", but can only be used on frequencies set aside for hams. Most ham transceivers can receive marine SSB frequencies, but they are set up not to transmit on them. It used to be that an FCC certified technician had to install and test the SSB marine radio, but I don't know if that rule is still valid. Ham radio though, can be installed by anybody. I receive e-mail often from a fellow sailor making his way to Florida. He is a ham, and has a radio and laptop computer. He is able to use them together to send an e-mail message to me via another ham that receives the message and resends it via normal e-mail. It is really quite the thing that many cruising hams are doing now. You can communicate day or night, close in or far out, makes no difference. With the reduction of morse code requirements to 5 words-per-minute for all ham classes, it is now easy for anybody to get their ticket. Good luck, and hope to "see" you on the air some day. Ken Palmer, S/V Liberty W2IMO http://www.LakeOntarioSailing.com
An SSB marine transceiver must be approved by the FCC for use aboard a vessel. Ham radio equipment does not require this "type acceptance", but can only be used on frequencies set aside for hams. Most ham transceivers can receive marine SSB frequencies, but they are set up not to transmit on them. It used to be that an FCC certified technician had to install and test the SSB marine radio, but I don't know if that rule is still valid. Ham radio though, can be installed by anybody. I receive e-mail often from a fellow sailor making his way to Florida. He is a ham, and has a radio and laptop computer. He is able to use them together to send an e-mail message to me via another ham that receives the message and resends it via normal e-mail. It is really quite the thing that many cruising hams are doing now. You can communicate day or night, close in or far out, makes no difference. With the reduction of morse code requirements to 5 words-per-minute for all ham classes, it is now easy for anybody to get their ticket. Good luck, and hope to "see" you on the air some day. Ken Palmer, S/V Liberty W2IMO http://www.LakeOntarioSailing.com
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Patrick Ewing
Other considerations to think about
are that with ham radio you are limited to non-commercial / non-business uses. You are not supposed to do banking, check on rental property, buy things or sell things etc. on the ham bands. Commercial marine SSB does allow for these uses but generally the services charge some fee and your boat must be licensed with the FCC for this purpose. Email is possible using either service but you will need a radio interface (called a terminal node controller or tnc) which is a type of modem to connect it to a computer. Ham radio services are all free (see arrl.org). There are also some amateur satellite services available. Commercial SSB email is $200 per year for Sail Mail (sailmail.com) more for some other services like Globe Wireless. All things considered, it is probably better to get a commercial marine SSB which can also be used for the ham frequencies. You can get a ham radio which can be modified to transmit on the commercial marine frequencies but to do so is technically illegal except in an emergency. Most radios can receive all of the hf frequencies for weather fax and message services with a tnc and computer. Boat modifications usually include a ground system and an automatic tuner. If you are technically competant, you might consider using a manual tuner. You can look at the SGC web site for some ideas about the installation (sgcworld.com) or Icom, SEA, Furuno, etc. may have sites also. You will probably need to insulate your backstay. Insulators are expensive. I used Stay-loc brand insulators which can be installed by most competant sailors using ordinary tools. Stay-loc makes a variety of adapters (study a catalog and shop carefully to save money) which allow you to attach an eye or fork directly to the insulator and that saves money and reduces the number of connections you have to make using rigging wire. You should fill the connection to reduce corrosion. I used wax in mine since it can be melted out for later inspection or re-use. Brion Toss has a rigging web site for advice on rigging topics (briontoss.com I think). Grounding is a big topic. Generally, you can tie all of the big metal items (engine, metal tanks, etc.) in the boat hull together with copper ground strap and use that for the ground of the radio system. You can also use metal thru hulls as well depending on your particular boat. You should consider electrolysis and bonding in doing this. There are differences of opinion about this so just know that in advance. If necessary, you can use copper screen against the hull to increase the coupling area and tie that into the ground as well. Finally, you may need to add filters and battery and or alternator capacity to the system. You may notice interference problems if the transmitter couples to the other boat systems. My friends boat has a problem with the autopilot steering off course when he transmits. You probably should learn about ferrite beads if you have these kinds of problems. They are clip on devices which reduce interference problems from device wiring.
are that with ham radio you are limited to non-commercial / non-business uses. You are not supposed to do banking, check on rental property, buy things or sell things etc. on the ham bands. Commercial marine SSB does allow for these uses but generally the services charge some fee and your boat must be licensed with the FCC for this purpose. Email is possible using either service but you will need a radio interface (called a terminal node controller or tnc) which is a type of modem to connect it to a computer. Ham radio services are all free (see arrl.org). There are also some amateur satellite services available. Commercial SSB email is $200 per year for Sail Mail (sailmail.com) more for some other services like Globe Wireless. All things considered, it is probably better to get a commercial marine SSB which can also be used for the ham frequencies. You can get a ham radio which can be modified to transmit on the commercial marine frequencies but to do so is technically illegal except in an emergency. Most radios can receive all of the hf frequencies for weather fax and message services with a tnc and computer. Boat modifications usually include a ground system and an automatic tuner. If you are technically competant, you might consider using a manual tuner. You can look at the SGC web site for some ideas about the installation (sgcworld.com) or Icom, SEA, Furuno, etc. may have sites also. You will probably need to insulate your backstay. Insulators are expensive. I used Stay-loc brand insulators which can be installed by most competant sailors using ordinary tools. Stay-loc makes a variety of adapters (study a catalog and shop carefully to save money) which allow you to attach an eye or fork directly to the insulator and that saves money and reduces the number of connections you have to make using rigging wire. You should fill the connection to reduce corrosion. I used wax in mine since it can be melted out for later inspection or re-use. Brion Toss has a rigging web site for advice on rigging topics (briontoss.com I think). Grounding is a big topic. Generally, you can tie all of the big metal items (engine, metal tanks, etc.) in the boat hull together with copper ground strap and use that for the ground of the radio system. You can also use metal thru hulls as well depending on your particular boat. You should consider electrolysis and bonding in doing this. There are differences of opinion about this so just know that in advance. If necessary, you can use copper screen against the hull to increase the coupling area and tie that into the ground as well. Finally, you may need to add filters and battery and or alternator capacity to the system. You may notice interference problems if the transmitter couples to the other boat systems. My friends boat has a problem with the autopilot steering off course when he transmits. You probably should learn about ferrite beads if you have these kinds of problems. They are clip on devices which reduce interference problems from device wiring.
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Ed Schenck
Great thread.
Especially for those of us considering a HAM license. Patick brings up an additional good point, battery capacity. Did I read correctly, some of these SSB units use 30 amps on transmit?! That should keep the discussions to a minimum. And what do you really miss by not(legally anyway) having access to the SSB bands with a HAM set?
Especially for those of us considering a HAM license. Patick brings up an additional good point, battery capacity. Did I read correctly, some of these SSB units use 30 amps on transmit?! That should keep the discussions to a minimum. And what do you really miss by not(legally anyway) having access to the SSB bands with a HAM set?
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Patrick Ewing
What you will miss with ham radio only
is the ability to (legally) contact other boats which do not have ham capability using commercial marine frequencies. You are also limited to an extent in what you can legally discuss on the ham bands ie: nothing that the FCC considers a commercial use or for that matter any station which links your traffic (email or phone patch). I suggest that you get set up to use either. It will cost more (effort as well as money for fees and equipment) but is also a safety issue. For what it is worth, I would value the ham service more than commercial. My experience is that hams are generally a more helpful, willing, reliable, and competant source of assistance. Getting licensed is a hurdle that filters out the unmotivated and incompetant to an extent and a licensed ham is more likely to be someone that I would want to depend on than someone who has simply paid for the privelage. There are "marine nets" ie: ham operators who periodically and routinely communicate at preset times and frequencies and have done so for many years. These "nets" are an institution which exists because of the interest, generosity, and dedication of the participants. I am unaware of any equivalent on the commercial marine hf frequencies. I have heard of some vhf nets which operate in various local areas where there are cruisers but vhf is generally very limited in range. On the other hand, a commercial marine radio is likely to be more simple to operate for the crew who may not understand or get confused when operating the typical ham radio in an emergency. That may make it easier for them to contact the Coast Guard in the event that you are not available to operate the equipment. As I said before, you can use any means and any equipment to contact anyone in an emergency without you or the equipment being specifically licensed for that purpose. If you do this, you may have some explaining to do if you have such an incident.
is the ability to (legally) contact other boats which do not have ham capability using commercial marine frequencies. You are also limited to an extent in what you can legally discuss on the ham bands ie: nothing that the FCC considers a commercial use or for that matter any station which links your traffic (email or phone patch). I suggest that you get set up to use either. It will cost more (effort as well as money for fees and equipment) but is also a safety issue. For what it is worth, I would value the ham service more than commercial. My experience is that hams are generally a more helpful, willing, reliable, and competant source of assistance. Getting licensed is a hurdle that filters out the unmotivated and incompetant to an extent and a licensed ham is more likely to be someone that I would want to depend on than someone who has simply paid for the privelage. There are "marine nets" ie: ham operators who periodically and routinely communicate at preset times and frequencies and have done so for many years. These "nets" are an institution which exists because of the interest, generosity, and dedication of the participants. I am unaware of any equivalent on the commercial marine hf frequencies. I have heard of some vhf nets which operate in various local areas where there are cruisers but vhf is generally very limited in range. On the other hand, a commercial marine radio is likely to be more simple to operate for the crew who may not understand or get confused when operating the typical ham radio in an emergency. That may make it easier for them to contact the Coast Guard in the event that you are not available to operate the equipment. As I said before, you can use any means and any equipment to contact anyone in an emergency without you or the equipment being specifically licensed for that purpose. If you do this, you may have some explaining to do if you have such an incident.
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Aldo Lozano-WA2IST
With my thanks...to all..
Perhaps I should mention I am a Ham now for 57 years and with all kind of experience on fix and movile installations, including cars and airplanes, since I also own a small aircraft and I am an aircraft mechanic and inpector. What I am not and I don't have experience on, is with being a sailor and installations aboard small boats. You guys cover almost everything I had doubts and Patrick sugestions and thoughs are right to the point, including the detail about the legality of transmitting in an emergency. For the kind of sailing I am planning to do, I think the best bet is stick with VHF for the marine stuff, and have the ham set up for its intented purpose and the ability to listen to the marine frequencies. I will prefer to go with the long wire configuration (backstay)but I don't see myself hanging from a small pulley and a VERY thing wire to install those insulators. Did you sent somebody up there, Patrick, or did it yourself? I think Dick have some confusion on what is SSB and its applications on ham and marine service. Seem like we can go on this for a long time, which is great. Thakns again, guys!
Perhaps I should mention I am a Ham now for 57 years and with all kind of experience on fix and movile installations, including cars and airplanes, since I also own a small aircraft and I am an aircraft mechanic and inpector. What I am not and I don't have experience on, is with being a sailor and installations aboard small boats. You guys cover almost everything I had doubts and Patrick sugestions and thoughs are right to the point, including the detail about the legality of transmitting in an emergency. For the kind of sailing I am planning to do, I think the best bet is stick with VHF for the marine stuff, and have the ham set up for its intented purpose and the ability to listen to the marine frequencies. I will prefer to go with the long wire configuration (backstay)but I don't see myself hanging from a small pulley and a VERY thing wire to install those insulators. Did you sent somebody up there, Patrick, or did it yourself? I think Dick have some confusion on what is SSB and its applications on ham and marine service. Seem like we can go on this for a long time, which is great. Thakns again, guys!
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Ed Schenck
OK, SSB with HAM bands it is.
Thanks to all for the enlightenment. Now off to find an affordable radio(hah!).
Thanks to all for the enlightenment. Now off to find an affordable radio(hah!).
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Bill Boyke
Commercial aspects of Amateur Radio (ham)
The FCC simplified its rules on 'commercial usage' by hams a few years ago. The rule of thumb is simple. You can not make money using amateur radio. Using an autopatch (radio to phone connection) to order a pizza is ok. A pizzaria accepting an order over their radio is verboten. Calling for a tow is ok. Calling to report an emergency or to support in an emergency is almost always ok. This was simplified because of the confusion resulting from hams volunteering communication services to events that charged admission or entrance fees, (fun runs, marathons). Bill Boyke (N8OZV)
The FCC simplified its rules on 'commercial usage' by hams a few years ago. The rule of thumb is simple. You can not make money using amateur radio. Using an autopatch (radio to phone connection) to order a pizza is ok. A pizzaria accepting an order over their radio is verboten. Calling for a tow is ok. Calling to report an emergency or to support in an emergency is almost always ok. This was simplified because of the confusion resulting from hams volunteering communication services to events that charged admission or entrance fees, (fun runs, marathons). Bill Boyke (N8OZV)
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Aldo Lozano-WA2IST
Ed, they are cheap!!!
You can have a very good radio covering all the bands, amateurs, marine, etc, between 5 and 10 year old, en VERY good condition, for an average of 400/500 bucks, or less. Kenwoods 430's, Icoms 735's and the like make for a fine all around radio for general purpose in the boat. Check your local ham club. They can give you the info related to your area, although you also can get them used radios from the big mail order houses. If you need more info, be glad to help...Ham radio and boats are a natural mix. Bill's comments are rigth up to date. alozano@monmouth.com
You can have a very good radio covering all the bands, amateurs, marine, etc, between 5 and 10 year old, en VERY good condition, for an average of 400/500 bucks, or less. Kenwoods 430's, Icoms 735's and the like make for a fine all around radio for general purpose in the boat. Check your local ham club. They can give you the info related to your area, although you also can get them used radios from the big mail order houses. If you need more info, be glad to help...Ham radio and boats are a natural mix. Bill's comments are rigth up to date. alozano@monmouth.com
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Dick McKee
Check out H F Radio...
It is a company in San Francisco that specalizes in Marine installations ...espically SSB. Their site is HFRADIO.COM...a lot of good infromation about Ham on the SSB.. Dick McKee
It is a company in San Francisco that specalizes in Marine installations ...espically SSB. Their site is HFRADIO.COM...a lot of good infromation about Ham on the SSB.. Dick McKee
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