Halyards on Furled sails

[Nodak7]

Don, in your book there is a number of references about using the Halyards to trim the fore and main sails (for changing the draft position). Can you do the same with a furling head or main sail? Are there any considerations or cautions about doing that? Is it recommended or not? Is seems that it could be hard on the foil for the foresail. How about a furling main? Does anyone ever tighten or loosen the halyard for furling sails? I know that once I raise the main at the beginning of the season it very rarely gets touched until I take the main down in the fall. Am I missing a tool in my trim tools? Should I be using this trim tool or is it "out of bounds" for furling mains and jibs?

 

[capejt]

I wouldn't begin to call myself as knowledgable as Don on this, but I can speak from some experience. I was delivering a Jeanneau 51 to Puerto Rico from Annapolis. We hit some nasty weather on the way down and furling the main became so hard we were using a winch. THAT is NOT good! When we got to PR I had it looked at and as I suspected the bearings were shot. However, along the way we found it was an easier task to furl and unfurl if the halyard was eased off a little.
I've found the same to be true on my own H33. Of course my bearings were recently replaced so I rarely have trouble, but I have noticed a difference when I vary the halyard tension.
I eventually found a happy medium between easy control and sail performance.

 

[Nodak7]

Thanks for the reply Capejt. I was not referring to the furling but to easing the halyard as a means of sail trim control on a furling main. BTW what year was the 51? Hopefully it was not a newer one.

 

[Joe]

There's no reason you can't make halyard and backstay adjustments on a good quality furling unit, the same as you would a foil. Many of rhe popular furling units are equipped with twin grooved foils and removable drums that give the skipper a racing option.

The major limtation would be the make, model and style of furling unit.

Many race boats are equipped with furling headsails.... I can't imagine them hot being able make halyard and backstay adjustments.

 

[Joe]

v

 

[Nodak7]

The Main is a Furling Selden Unit on a B&R Rig. No backstay. The Foresail is a Furling Selden S200(?) Unit. I believe they are both pretty high quality units.

 

[Ross S]

There's no reason you can't make halyard and backstay adjustments on a good quality furling unit, the same as you would a foil. Many of rhe popular furling units are equipped with twin grooved foils and removable drums that give the skipper a racing option.

The major limitation would be the make, model and style of furling unit. Check with your unit's manufacturer if you suspect any limitations.(such as the amount of sag it will tolerate)

Many race boats are equipped with furling headsails.... I can't imagine them not being able make halyard and backstay adjustments.

I have a roller furling genoa on my boat as well. For my type of sailing the convenience of a roller furler over a hanked on sail is great but if I had it to do over again I'd go with a different model of furler. I feel as though my sail fits too tightly into the foil so I can see what Nodak7 is talking about. If I loosen my halyard it doesn't really affect it that much due to the friction of the sail in the foil. To have any real effect I'd have to loosen the halyard and go forward and physically pull the sail down a bit. Tightening the luff with the halyard would not be a problem...only loosening.

 

[alexco38]

Yes, we routinely use the jib halyard to trim the head sail to control the sail shape. For the main, it is not as easy because it is much heavier. We use a Cunningham. BTW the lowest hole on the mainsail is designed for Cunningham.

There are differences in the design of the furler drum. Harken has 70+ ball bearings thus making it easier to furl / unfurl under tight halyard tension.

Furlex (Seldon) has only 10 ball bearings inside the drum. The manual advise you to easy the halyard tension before furling. Furlex is still a good unit but unfortunately there is no easy way to lubricate the bottom bearings.

I have no experience with Pro-furler / Shaefer. It looks like it has a big hub for lots of ball bearings. The more ball bearings the easier to turn under heavy load.

 

[Don Guillette]

Nodak7: Here's my two cents of personal opinion plus I'm not familiar enough with the furling in boom or in mast system to comment on them.

Sail trim adjustments are primarily effective when the sails are fully deployed. Once you start furling your main and jib, adjustments become more difficult and less effective. In my case, once I start furling sails all I cared about was getting the boat back in one piece and I could care less how efficient the sails were or how they look. My jib was either in or out - it was not a roller reefer and unless you have that kind of a jib furling system, sail trim control adjustments are difficult.

I don't know how abusive mainsail adjustment would be on a furling mainsail but they would not be abusive on a furling jib.

The main halyard only adjusts draft position. It has no effect on angle of attack, twist or draft depth. Consequently, I suggest to beginners and intermediates to almost forget about draft position. Master the 3 other elements first and then deal with draft position. In preparation for mastering draft position, hook up a cunningham and bring your halyard to full hoist and then back off a tad. I don't think that that is an option on the furling main - I just don't know.

The jib halyard is another matter. It is used to adjust two elements - draft position and draft depth. To get around using the jib halyard I installed a jib cunningham. Once I started furling the jib on my boat I was stuck from a halyard adjustment standpoint because part of the sail is wrapped around the front stay and I couldn't crank on the halyard if I wanted to. In my case, I didn't care about adjusting it anyway - all I wanted to do was roll it up and get the boat under control. On a masthed rig it's like shutting the engine off.

From a general sail trim control adjustment standpoint - all the sail trim controls for the main and jib were put there for a reason and if they all arn't used the answer is yes you're missing that tool but if you don't have the control or your sail plan does not permit its use then you have to improvise a way to get around the absense of the missing sail trim control.

Sailors ask me why I prefer cunninghams over halyards. Here's why. My jib and main halyards were not led back to the cockpit so I'd have to make the adjustment at the mast. It was a pain because I ended up with line all over the deck and the weight of the sail made adjustment difficult. Sailors (and humans) will do what's easy and not what's hard. Halyard adjustment was too hard for so I didn't mess with it but realized I needed too. The cunnigham was the answer for me - with it I could "dial" in the adjustment I was looking for.

 

[Ross S]

I was actually just coming here to ask this question! I just got the Sail Trim Guide and Chart and have been reading it. It seemed to me that the Cunningham and Halyards accomplish the same adjustment and I was going to ask if one is preferred over the other.

So please correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm comfortable adjusting my halyards (which is pretty easy since they're lead aft to the cockpit) then there is no need for a Cunningham?

 

[alexco38]

Pulling up the halyard is harder in a blow as you have to work against gravity and wind load. Cunningham is assisted by gravity and affect the bottom half of the main sail more, which is what you want.

 

[Wanderer138]

Hi Ross:

The cunnigham is more effective on the lower portion of the mainsail, which is where most of its power is generated (more sail area for a given height). The halyard is less effective because of all the friction in the mast track and masthead sheave that has to be overcome to get its tension to the lower part of the sail. Turning blocks to run the halyard to the cockpit add even more friction. In addiition, even if there is no friction in the system, the maximum pull that can be applied to the luff of the sail is the halyard tension.

Most cunninghams are rigged with a line from a cleat on the deck or low on the mast up to a hook or cringle on the luff of the sail above the boom then back down a point below the boom on the opposite side of the mast. Sometimes the boom slides on a vertical track and the cunningham is rigged under the gooseneck. This setup applies double the line tension to the luff of the sail, i.e., a 2:1 purchase so you don't have to pull as hard to get the desired effect.

Luff tension adjustment with the cunningham is less demanding and less sensitive than with the halyard (inverse of the purchase). You also don't have to worry about supporting the weight of the sail while adjusting the luff tension. The cunningham can be led back to a cleat in the cockpit using a single turning block so it can be adjusted easily while under way. It's a simple addition that will improve mainsail trim significantly. Racers use blocks to rig 4:1 purchases or higher and use a single line with blocks and cleats on both sides of the cockpit so they can adjust luff tension on either tack.

Best regards,
Peter
H23 "Raven"

 

[Don Guillette]

Ross S: Thank you for purchasing my products.

Alexo38 and Wanderer138 pretty much answered your question. The Cunningham and the halyard pretty much do the same thing - one works from the top and the other from the bottom. I personally prefer the cunningham for the reasons I mentioned. Tugging on the halyard at the mast while looking up was a pain. I could have led the halyards back to the cockpit - in my case to the helm - but the cunningham is just so much easier for me to handle and as I mentioned I can dial in the adjustment I want. I used a modified Garhauer soft boom vang. I had enough mechanical effort from that vang that I could have pulled the tack cringle out of the sail had I wanted to. I didn't need a winch to operate it either.

 

[Joe]

I have a roller furling genoa on my boat as well. For my type of sailing the convenience of a roller furler over a hanked on sail is great but if I had it to do over again I'd go with a different model of furler. I feel as though my sail fits too tightly into the foil so I can see what Nodak7 is talking about. If I loosen my halyard it doesn't really affect it that much due to the friction of the sail in the foil. To have any real effect I'd have to loosen the halyard and go forward and physically pull the sail down a bit. Tightening the luff with the halyard would not be a problem...only loosening.

When is the last time you removed your headsail from the furler's foil? You might try rigging a cleaning trolley to run up down the groove, you could apply some dry lubricant the same way.

 

[Ross S]

The boat is on the trailer for the winter. So the sails are off and the mast is down. I try to lube the groove with Sailkote before I put the mast up. Any recommendations for an alternative lubricant?

 

[Sam Salter]

Although halyard and Cunningham do similar adjustments: halyard tends to be more effective at the top end of the main and Cunningham at the bottom end. I think the preferred method is the Cunningham as it only pulls on the luff.
When you pull the halyard you pull the luff and the leech. This tends to cup the leech which is not what you want when the wind picks up.

 

[RichH]

The boat is on the trailer for the winter. So the sails are off and the mast is down. I try to lube the groove with Sailkote before I put the mast up. Any recommendations for an alternative lubricant?

Simple paraffin (candle) wax is probably the 'best' for sail tracks, sail slugs, foil grooves .... and especially rubbed onto/into the 'continuous luff support tape' that fits into the 'groove' on headstay furlers; just carve a 'slug' of the wax and run it up and down the track a few times.
For sail tracks you can carve a 'slug sized' piece of wax and place it between the first two sail slugs as you load the sail into its mast track .... will add 'lube' to the track every time you raise the sail.

A light 'sanding' of a groove in a furler foil or mast track is sometimes needed to remove the aluminum oxide 'flowers' that tend to grow once the anodizing becomes worn ... 600 or finer grit will do the final job but be careful not to remove adjacent anodizing.

.... of course, then follow with a dry PTFE lubricant such as SailKote, etc.

If you want *really slick* get a StrongTack slug system made from molded UHMW Polyethylene .... then it doesnt matter which you 'pull', either halyard or cunningham .... its that 'slick' and with virtually NO friction so the sail luff will 'equilibrate' along the track very easily and fast. .

 

[William12213]

We had something happen during this years Port Huron to Mackinaw race that taught me a thing or two. I have a furling headsail and we were in some heavy winds. So we had pulled the sail in a couple of wraps then the halyard broke at the top of the mast. We were expecting the sail to come crashing down so we were ready with a spare halyard. The sail never came down. We actually finished the last 12 hours of the race with no halyard. I am sure the couple of wraps and the strong (30+) winds amounted to a ton of force holding it up.

 

[sandpiper10471]

On the headsail you can use halliard tension to adjust sail shape. However, with the furling main on the Selden rig, if you slack the halliard to increase and move aft the draft, furling can become problematic. Either the luff won't furl into the mast easily by the tack or the tack loop webbing will come off the furling hook. Very common problems with this rig. So for the main, set up the tension you want and then leave it.

 

[Nodak7]

On the headsail you can use halliard tension to adjust sail shape. However, with the furling main on the Selden rig, if you slack the halliard to increase and move aft the draft, furling can become problematic. Either the luff won't furl into the mast easily by the tack or the tack loop webbing will come off the furling hook. Very common problems with this rig. So for the main, set up the tension you want and then leave it.

Sandpiper, this is the response that I was expecting. Unfortunately it is another sail trim tool not available. I will still take the furling main though and live without it.