Pretty basic questions here. I am progressively doing more and more DIY on my boat. I am learning it is easier to ask questions and avoid mistakes. I plan to change my 20 year old main sail halyard and jib halyard. Jib is roller furling and main sail is not. I am a day sailor/cruiser. First question, I was considering New England Ropes Sta-Set but looked in the forum archives and am now considering using the Sailboat Owners store. They use Samson XL S3. It seems for my sailing the Samson XL S3 is fine. Opinions? Second question, Sailboat Owners store will splice in a shackle and whip one end. The boat is a Beneteau 323, main halyard runs in the mast and cleats aft to the cockpit. If I didn't have them splice in a shackle I would have just whipped both ends of my line and sewn and taped the original halyard to the new halyard, pulled in through the clutch in the cockpit enter the base of the mast, run in the mast and out the top of the mast then attached a shackle with a halyard knot and be done. If I purchase the halyard with the shackle spliced in already it would mean I reverse the process? Remove the shackle from the old halyard, sew the whipped end to the old halyard and then as I pull the old halyard out through the clutch the new halyard would be entering the mast at the top and following in mast to the base and back to the cockpit. Am I likely to run into more trouble ( jam a sheave or jump off a sheave) as my new line will being entering via the top of the mast as opposed to the base of the mast? As I read this it sounds confusing but the halyard ends up rigged correctly either way. The issue is the same with the jib halyard, with a shackle spliced (reversing the process). Thanks for reading this and hope I haven't confused everyone.
halyard questions
- Thread starter Mike8193
- Start date
I highly recommend using the SBO store. I used them for my halyards a couple years back and their price was excellent and service as well.
Your choice of line is fine. Running the halyard in either direction I've never seen matter. I prefer using a halyard knot rather than a hard splice as it's easier to redo if needed. But that's your choice.
dj
Your choice of line is fine. Running the halyard in either direction I've never seen matter. I prefer using a halyard knot rather than a hard splice as it's easier to redo if needed. But that's your choice.
dj
Sewing the end of the old halyard neatly to the new one should avoid any problems with the sheave(s) at the top of the mast. Like @dLj we used a knot to attach the shackle and sewed that too.
I upgraded our OEM dacron halyards to New England T-900, over 20 years ago. They are still in "new" condition. 8 mm for main, jib, and spinn. Great great product, and they hold in our Lewmar D2 clutches.
Personally I would never advise Sta-set or start-setX. Too much stretch.
I use a "halyard Knot" on each one to secure the business end to a shackle, and this makes it pretty easy to reverse the halyard every couple years when they are brought down (with the use of tag lines) for laundering.
The B-323 model displaces over a thousand # less than our boat, so the line strength and diameter (for handling) should not be an issue at all.
Of course, this is all "IMHO."
Personally I would never advise Sta-set or start-setX. Too much stretch.
I use a "halyard Knot" on each one to secure the business end to a shackle, and this makes it pretty easy to reverse the halyard every couple years when they are brought down (with the use of tag lines) for laundering.
The B-323 model displaces over a thousand # less than our boat, so the line strength and diameter (for handling) should not be an issue at all.
Of course, this is all "IMHO."
I buy the line with not wipped ends. To put the line through, I pull the outer cover back 6" exposing the inners. Then cut off the inner core. Then fold over the cover to on itself and sew it. Do the same to your old halyard. Then run your waxed sewing line several times through the ends that you just made. This makes a flexible hinge. Then pull upwards through the mast and let it drop down from outside. Cut the end and wipe. Put it through the shackle and tie a bowline and sew the extra length to the halyard. Then wipe the cockpit end and tie a figure 8, you are done.
Higher performance rope is not much more than old polyester, and your sails will benefit from it. Stay away from StaSet and particularly StaSetX.
Consider upgrading to Samson's MLX3, Robline's Globe Pro, or NER's Viper. If 3/8" isn't too big, here is a great deal on a high performance SK78 core line: AMSTEEL II PLUS ROPE | Tallman Equipment Company
One advantage is splicing these core-dependent lines is much easier than double braid polyester.
Mark
Consider upgrading to Samson's MLX3, Robline's Globe Pro, or NER's Viper. If 3/8" isn't too big, here is a great deal on a high performance SK78 core line: AMSTEEL II PLUS ROPE | Tallman Equipment Company
One advantage is splicing these core-dependent lines is much easier than double braid polyester.
Mark
No opinion on the rope itself other than lower stretch that still fits the budget is better for halyards and it does not need as much ‘feel’ on the cover like working lines such as sheets.
Meanwhile, for the work itself and thinking about longevity and maintenance - I would skip the spliced and shackle and the splice and just halyard knots. Sort of like a bowline with an extra loop…
Over the years this allows you to end-for-end the halyards and also simply cut 8” off to move the chafe points.
For the work itself, strongly suggest crossing the rubicon and buying a some basic sail thread, needle and palm. It is quite easy to sew the two ends together (and I wrap with a little duct or masking tape to smooth the link) and pull it through with the old halyard.
Buy the new halyards about 2 feet longer than the as-built/design lengths for room to trim and move the chafe points.
Meanwhile, for the work itself and thinking about longevity and maintenance - I would skip the spliced and shackle and the splice and just halyard knots. Sort of like a bowline with an extra loop…
Over the years this allows you to end-for-end the halyards and also simply cut 8” off to move the chafe points.
For the work itself, strongly suggest crossing the rubicon and buying a some basic sail thread, needle and palm. It is quite easy to sew the two ends together (and I wrap with a little duct or masking tape to smooth the link) and pull it through with the old halyard.
Buy the new halyards about 2 feet longer than the as-built/design lengths for room to trim and move the chafe points.
I don't know why you would run your line thru the clutch. That's just asking for more friction & trouble. I think the most trouble-free way is your "reverse" option. Run the tail end of the new line over the top first - but, of course, remove the tail end of the old line from the clutch first! You don't need to run the tail end of the new line thru the clutch until it is all in place thru the mast.
I wouldn't use xls3 for your halyard. It's heavy and it stretches. It's just a little better than sta set, which I would never use. I installed N.E. Viper on my boat but I should have installed N.E. Endura. When I do it again, that's what I will probably use. It is stronger, less elastic, much lighter and has a nice feel (like Viper does). If you are considering 10 mm XLS, you will be much better off with 8 mm Endura. I used 10 mm Viper and that was a mistake. I should have installed 8 mm Endura (or 8 mm Viper for that matter). In any case, with Endura, you should be over 2 pounds lighter and much less elastic. The price difference for the advantages is not significant.
I probably would like to use a halyard knot, but the shackle is easier for me because I like to remove the halyard from the head while on anchor or at the dock to eliminate halyard slap. I know you can mitigate halyard slap while not removing the halyard, but I think it's a hassle.
I had WarpSpeed for halyards on my previous boat and hated it. Won't buy it again. I like Viper, but I don't need 10 mm (made that mistake) and I like Endura more. I'm using Endura for a few control lines and it is my favorite. I also have MLX3 for sheets and controls and like it
as well. I think it kinks a bit more than I like, so I wouldn't use for halyard.
If you do consider an 8 mm line, be sure to verify that the clutch will work with it.
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I think the choice of halyard line depends upon how you are sailing. I choose a mid-range, low stretch line as I'm sailing long distances and don't want the stretch. I certainly don't need high end no stretch as I'm a cruising boat. And the price jump was notable. If you are doing day sails/weekend trips and the like, I don't think you need the lower stretch halyards, unless you also plan on racing.
One of the best blurbs on lines was done by APS - it it a bit dated but the concepts are all the same. APS is no longer in business. But their youtube video is still available.
dj
One of the best blurbs on lines was done by APS - it it a bit dated but the concepts are all the same. APS is no longer in business. But their youtube video is still available.
dj
Opinions vary, but I think that, for most sailors, not a lot of thought needs to be put into which rope to use. It just doesn't matter, much. If you are racing or plan lots of heavy-weather sailing, that can make it matter more. But, your sail material and construction are the first consideration. If you don't keep your sails pretty new and/or use laminate sails, your choice of halyard isn't going to make any appreciable difference.
Although you didn't mention it, others did - halyard weight should not be a consideration for a day-sailor/cruiser on your boat. Outside of racing, halyard weight aloft is a second-order effect that quickly drops below the noise floor of real sailing variables. The physics is technically real, but the magnitude is imperceptibly small.
Low-stretch is only slightly less unimportant - again it has some theoretical benefit, but that benefit is eclipsed or erased by other decisions - like 10-year old dacron sails.
Although you didn't mention it, others did - halyard weight should not be a consideration for a day-sailor/cruiser on your boat. Outside of racing, halyard weight aloft is a second-order effect that quickly drops below the noise floor of real sailing variables. The physics is technically real, but the magnitude is imperceptibly small.
Low-stretch is only slightly less unimportant - again it has some theoretical benefit, but that benefit is eclipsed or erased by other decisions - like 10-year old dacron sails.
I think the silence is clear....
Kevlar and Technora are both aramids, quite similar properties. Vectran I don't know much about. I was involved in research on Kevlar a long time ago. Fun project assessing different bullet proof vest designs - got to shoot a lot of guns at stryofoam dummies wrapped in different garments...
dj
@FastOlson mentioned he uses T-900, which is a technora core. We used this for halyards for years, but I got tired of the way it retains twist from a winch, and how difficult it is to remove that twist each time, as well as how stiff it is. So we switched to dyneema core line. Otherwise, T-900 is an excellent performance rope in terms of strength and stretch.
But I think mainly people understood the OP has a smaller boat and was price sensitive, so the discussion centered around better lines in similar price ranges as double braid polyester.
Mark
Actually, the T-900 core has two components in the core. https://www.neropes.com/product/t-900/
As for it getting a bit stiff, yeah, it can if left un-laundered for a couple seasons; but I always kinda attributed that to our YC marina being close to the final approach to PDX! We do get some jet exhaust mixed artfully into the mold on the decks and lines around here...
Good call to Mark for reminding us about the hierarchy of price. My take on it was to spend more and plan to keep the boat for a long time -- and I did both!
Note B: way back when I replaced all four halyards, I was also prompted by finding some meathooks in the wire portions of the original wire-to-rope spliced halyards with their fat dacron tails. Different topic, but I did also noticeably reduce weight aloft ---- those four coils of leftover ss wire were Heavy! I did get a few bucks for 'em at the recyclers, tho.
As for it getting a bit stiff, yeah, it can if left un-laundered for a couple seasons; but I always kinda attributed that to our YC marina being close to the final approach to PDX! We do get some jet exhaust mixed artfully into the mold on the decks and lines around here...
Good call to Mark for reminding us about the hierarchy of price. My take on it was to spend more and plan to keep the boat for a long time -- and I did both!
Note B: way back when I replaced all four halyards, I was also prompted by finding some meathooks in the wire portions of the original wire-to-rope spliced halyards with their fat dacron tails. Different topic, but I did also noticeably reduce weight aloft ---- those four coils of leftover ss wire were Heavy! I did get a few bucks for 'em at the recyclers, tho.
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All statements true when you have an "I don't give a shit" attitude about everything except the price tag. Just checking Defenders prices differentiating between 8 mm Endura vs. 10 mm XLS3 (which is probably the appropriate comparison for the Bene 323) ... the difference is about $140 per halyard. Is that significant? Maybe, maybe not for an item that will be in use for, say, 10 years min. Everybody's criteria for evaluation is personal. I always consider first: product quality; and, second: price. I don't ignore price, but I don't let it get in the way, either. I make rational comparisons. After I've chosen the product I want, I then look for ways to economize. For instance, the genoa halyard doesn't need to come back to the cockpit so I can save length there. Also, the recommended lengths are generally over-stated. I eliminated 10' from my mainsail halyard length simply because there was way too much line at the tail end cluttering up the cockpit no matter where I stored the head shackle. The manual said I need 115'. I have no problems with 105' (that's a $24 savings right there).
Take all things into consideration. The more lines you have running up the mast, the weight compounds. Line diameter (and stretch) adds friction when hauling the mainsail up the mast. I like to think the small performance differences add up to more sailing pleasure. That's pretty much how I look at it.
Original poster here. Thank you for all the input. I think using the halyard knot and skipping the splice is good advice for several reasons. Appreciate all the input on line selection. Price does factor in and type of sailing does also.
My first use of Kevlar was the replacement of a wire/rope halyard.Actually, the T-900 core has two components in the core. https://www.neropes.com/product/t-900/
As for it getting a bit stiff, yeah, it can if left un-laundered for a couple seasons; but I always kinda attributed that to our YC marina being close to the final approach to PDX! We do get some jet exhaust mixed artfully into the mold on the decks and lines around here...
Good call to Mark for reminding us about the hierarchy of price. My take on it was to spend more and plan to keep the boat for a long time -- and I did both!
Note B: way back when I replaced all four halyards, I was also prompted by find some meathooks in the wire portions of the original wire-to-rope spliced halyards with their fat dacron tails. Different topic, but I did also noticeably reduce weight aloft ---- those four coils of leftover ss wire were Heavy! I did get a few bucks for 'em at the recyclers, tho.
a. I learned about the effect of wire burs on rope
.b. I learned that the core did not like fatigue and actually failed while the polyester cover was still intact. Very odd. But this took about 10 years.
I had to use a high mod line because there was no room for polyester. If I were the OP I would use polyester with reeving eye on the ends.
Endura braid and XLS3 are at opposite ends in performance and price, for sure. Many of us were suggesting dyneema cored MLX3 and similar instead of polyester cored XLS3. Looking at Defender, the price difference is only $0.40/foot instead of $1/ft for 10mm. An upgrade in performance, for little difference in price.
Mark
Mark
Getting into the weeds of core construction ... MLX3 is similar to N.E. Ropes Viper in that both have a HMPE blended core. Endura has a dyneema core, which (supposedly) is a superior brand-named HMPE product. That is why there is a difference in price. I have all 4 of the named products (Endura, Viper, MLX3, and XLS3) on my boat and I can definitely say that I prefer Endura and would probably be most satisfied if I had it for all my lines. It has the best combination of performance, feel and coiling behavior in my opinion.
Also, a significant reason why I would choose a higher-performance line for @Mike8193 's boat (which is almost identical to my own boat) is
to reduce the line diameter from 10 mm to 8 mm. When you have all that line coiled up in the cockpit with the sail raised, the smaller line has far less bulk. (every time I coil up the 10 mm Viper that I bought for halyards, I think about how bulky it is)