H34 Head Water Tank

[Dan Johnson]

As mentioned in the H34 Water Tanks thread, I installed a Todd water tank and ball valve to feed fresh water into the head's intake rather than draw raw water in from the thru-hull.

Attached are two pics of the installation. It is located in the starboard v-berth storage bin. The first pic is of the tank and PVC fiill/vent hose set-up. The second shows the ball valve and hose leading to the head.

 

[VINN]

looks like a great job dan, i may try something like that over the winter. another improvement ive been holding out for some time is to have all of my sole replaced. i figured it would be a easy installing all the plumbing to the rear tank. since money is tight right now, your solution looks to be the answer. thanx

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

There are much easier ways...

The simplest way to install a separate flush water tank: buy an UNvented bladder (smallest seem to be 10-12 gallons)...tee the fill into the sink drain with a y-valves, connect the head intake to the bladder. No other plumbing needed. To refill the bladder, turn the y-valve, run water down the sink into it. All other times, use the sink normally.

Or, it really isn't necessary to flush with fresh water all the time in order to avoid sea water odor problems and mineral buildup...you only need a means of rinsing the sea water out of the entire system before it can sit and stagnate. This previous thread in the Head Mistress forum describes an easy way to do that: http://forums.hunter.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=105546

 

[Dan Johnson]

Thanks, Peggy...

for the advice. On the H34, the head's sink is on the opposite side of the boat from the head itself, in its own vanity cabinetry. There's barely enough room for the thru-hull valve in the cabinet below the sink. The "T" hardware above the valve would have stuck out too far and interfered with the sliders. Routing another water line across the hull would not have been an easy chore either.

I did use a bladder tank on my last boat, separate from the water supply bladder to the sinks. It had a common deck fill hose with a ball valve for isolation and a check valve in the line to the head (a Raritan PHII with the wrap around holding tank I might add!). I didn't like the connections on the bladders and find the rigid Todd tank works better in this installation. The hose from the tank to the head is less than 3 feet long.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

What if...

I see the problem. And without seeing the boat, I'm not sure this would work...but what if the bladder were installed on the keel, so neither the fill line from the sink nor the head intake line would be more than a couple of feet long? I THINK that would also allow gravity to work.

However, when the sink and the toilet are on opposite sides of the keel, what most people do is just put a y-valve in the head intake line, a couple of feet of hose and a gallon milk jug...filling the milk jug with fresh water only to rinse the sea water out of the system before the boat will sit.

 

[Dan Johnson]

Peggy, you must...

be a mind reader. I keep a gallon jug of fresh water at the foot of the head for a jiffy rinse after use (boat rule: liquids only in the head!). The head is a Groco unit that is full size and flushes like your home toilet, which does use a fair amount of water.

As far as the keel placement of a bladder, the boat would have to give up the shower sump to accomodate a bladder tank there. Because Hunter uses a backbone skeleton framework for reinforcement, there is no easy access below any of the cabin soles. It would be a major job to fit anything into the bilge spaces below any of the soles.

Some owners have dissassembled the v-berth woodwork and installed a large water or holding tank in the space available once the fiberglass was opened up. Others have put their AC unit there. It does offer a lot of storage space but it's not easy to access.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Which Groco toilet?

'Cuz the only two full size Grocos are the EB (discontinued) and the Model K...and neither flushes like a household toilet--or at least they aren't supposed to. Both have a foot pedal that controls the flush water separately from the discharge pump, allowing the user to control the amount of flush water used... to bring in water ahead of solids or not..or dry flush. However, if some fool PO converted the toilet to electric, that could explain it the excessive flush water use...in which case I'd remove the motor, 'cuz putting motor on a manual toilet does nothing but replace the pump handle (and foot pedal if there is one)..it's still a manual toilet pump, just one that doesn't work anywhere NEAR as well as it was originally designed to work.

Why would you limit toilet use to urine only? Would you do that at home? It doesn't make a bit of difference in the holding tank, nor to the hoses when it comes to odor elimination...nor does it matter in the tank whether the toilet is flushed with salt water or fresh.

 

[Dan Johnson]

Peggy...

it is a manual model K. By saying it flushes like a home toilet I meant that there is a water flow around the whole inner rim, which seems to use a lot of water to get a full rinse. Teaching guests to use the petal to control the water amount used became a PITA as it's not like a home toilet at all.

We found that "full use" meant doing some "unclogging" of TP after use on occassion when too much was used. It also filled the 15 gallon holding tank much quicker and required a visit to the pump out more frequently. Marinas have much nicer facilities, and we have made exceptions in emergencies. And, contrary to what you stated, it does make an odor difference to our noses, and requires the use of more head treatment stuff to control it.

To each his own...

 

[Vinny]

Peggy wrote "Why would you limit toilet use to urine only? Would you do that at home? It doesn't make a bit of difference in the holding tank, nor to the hoses when it comes to odor elimination...nor does it matter in the tank whether the toilet is flushed with salt water or fresh."
Peggy,

I'm sorry but I have to agree with Dan. Ours is for the most part urine only as well. I say for the most part because there have been times when getting to the on shore head was next to impossible so the head on the boat was used. But in no case is there ever toilet paper used in the head. There is a trash container, lined with a plastic bag, under the sink that is emptied daily if needed. TP sooner or later clogs vents plain and simple. Also both heads are freshwater flushed due to the oder of the sea water if left in the head for any length of time. The water in our marina is very dark in color with low salt and high tannin. It has an oder sometime.

Here are the instructions given to everyone that comes aboard. They are also posted in the head.

INSTRUCTIONS ON THE USE OF THE HEAD

1. THE ONLY THINGS THAT GO INTO THIS HEAD MUST HAVE GONE INTO YOUR MOUTH, THROUGH YOUR BODY AND THEN INTO THE HEAD.​

THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS TO THIS RULE​

2. ALL PAPER PRODUCTS ARE TO BE PLACED IN THE TRASH CAN UNDER THE SINK. YES THIS INCLUDES USED TOLIET TISSUES.​

THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS TO THIS RULE AS WELL.​

3. TO FLUSH, SIMPLY TAKE THE FIXTURE FROM THE SINK TO THE BOWL, TURN ON THE COLD WATER, NOW PUMP THE HANDLE UP AND DOWN UNTIL THE BOWL IS DRY, CONTINUE TO ADD SOME WATER AFTER PUMPING IS STOPPED. REPLACE THE FIXTURE AND SHUT OFF THE WATER.​

4. CLOSE THE LID​

NOW THAT WASN’T HARD WAS IT?​

THANKS

Capt. VINNY​

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Vinny...

T.P cannot clog a vent unless a) the tank is allowed to overflow into the vent, and b) the TP isn't quick-dissolve TP...and c) a complete lack of tank vent maintnenance.

Nor is there any reason to leave sea water in the head for any length of time, when there's choice of simple mods to the toilet intake that allow all the sea water to be flushed out of the WHOLE system before the boat sits.

Fwiw, just because you've eaten it first does NOT guarantee it won't clog the system. Otoh, even if an overload of quick-dissolve TP clogs the system, the clog will dissolve on its own in about an hour.

But as Dan said, to each his own...so if you want to jump through all those hoops that a little bit of modification to the plumbing--including the tank vent--and just a little preventive maintenance would make totally unnecessary, it's ok with me. I just want to discourage others from doing the same things.

 

[Vinny]

Nor is there any reason to leave sea water in the head for any length of time, when there's choice of simple mods to the toilet intake that allow all the sea water to be flushed out of the WHOLE system before the boat sits.

Otoh, even if an overload of quick-dissolve TP clogs the system, the clog will dissolve on its own in about an hour.

But as Dan said, to each his own...so if you want to jump through all those hoops that a little bit of modification to the plumbing--including the tank vent--and just a little preventive maintenance would make totally unnecessary, it's ok with me. I just want to discourage others from doing the same things.

Peggy,

When I got this boat the rear tank would not pump out. I'm not sure what kind of paper was used nor do I care. The clog was paper. A Catalina just four slips down from me just had a similar problem this past spring and I do know that only quick dissolve paper was used in that boat. So maybe it is just a North Carolina problem but it really isn't any problem to use the trash container under the sink. Also you didn't quite read what I said about the water. It sometime has an oder from the get go, it doesn't have to set for a week. So we use fresh water to flush and fresh water only.

As Dan said to each his own.

 

[Dan Johnson]

Like Vinny...

we have a plastic bag-lined small trash can next to the head for all paper and anything else non-liquid. It may sound like an inconvenience, but I'm the only plumber on board when things get clogged, so it doesn't inconvenience me.

 

[VINN]

hey dan, i performed a makeover to the h34 head this summer. looks like all teak doesen't it. i think i heard somewhere, if you want it to smell good, its gotta look good. how do you like it?

 

[Dan Johnson]

Thanks, VINN...

I'd show you a pic of mine, but I don't have an "after" one. Will have to remember to take one this weekend when I go back down to take the last of the stuff off for the winter.

We don't have a shower curtain as we don't shower aboard. Where did you find one so short, or was that a modification made to a normal length one?

The wood panel adds a nice touch. The inner rim of my original white one has lost its trim. I've found some "iron on" stuff at the home center, but haven't applied it yet. I used it on the stove support I made so it should work well in the head bulkhead as well.

 

[VINN]

believe it or not, thats the original painted white plywood dan. the paint was peeling so i removed all of it, and stained the grain behind it with minwax, and used some orange oil to keep it sort of waterproof. it took allot of sanding, but it was worth it. my late father fabracated the shower curtain? he loved teak as i mentioned before, and his touch can also be seen in the front stateroom.

 

[Dan Johnson]

VINN...

nice teak trimwork in the v-berth--a true tribute to your late father's good taste and craftsmanship! Half our household furniture is of Danish teak manufacture--they have a way of making unique furnishings that can be acquired KD and easily assembled. We love its gaining and warm hue.

Refinishing a panel may be hard work, but is certainly easier than replacing it. Your work looks outstanding.

On my last boat, an older 27, the main cabin bulkhead was a shabby, dark walnut laminate. I sanded it lightly and applied a coat of Cetol--the result was more teak-like with the graining showing through, and much more satisfying to look at regularly.

The reverse side was the head, finished in the same dark laminate on both bulkheads, with a solid wood teak door. It was too dark and claustrophobic for my wife so the interior bulkheads got white polyurethane paint, and the teak door was lightened and clear satin varnished. Made a big difference.