H33 Hadling Characteristics under Sail

[H33CRich]

Sunday, I had the pleasure of meeting another H33 owner at the US Sailboat Show in Annapolis and during one of our conversations, he mentioned that he moved the fore-stay forward and onto his bowsprit and this improved handling. To me this implied that handling of the H33 could be improved. What does moving the forestay forward do for the H33? I had read prior to making the decision to buy the H33, that the H33 was a good sailing vessel. Have I missed something or is it a preference to a particular balance not adjusted with sail area or mast rake? On my current boat (Tanzer 26), I can really load up the rudder with poor trim or too much cloth, but I can also adjust things to de-power the sail plan and balance things out. Just curious.

 

[bugaloo]

Rich, I don't have a bowsprit, and am not sure what he is talking about handling better, however I can tell you the boat handles wonderfully. I personally feel like if you moved the forward stay any more forward and had the water tank full, in the ocean I sail in, your bow would stay under, and you would not be a happy sailor. see if you can get a picture of his bowsprit. I will tell you this the rudder is deeper than the keel and I am in the process of cutting mine and putting a wing on it. I will let you know how that works out

 

[SamLust]

The deep keel H33C and shoal keel H33C are two ENTIRELY different animals. The Superb reputation is based on the deep keel. The shoal draft, which is what Rich and I own tend to round up early and often. Using the traveler is a help and necessity, but the occasional heavy gust will get you if you're already on the edge. Possibly dependant on year of production the rudder of the shoal 33 is about 2 inches higher than the shoal keel, and considerably shorter than the deep rudder. I HAVE measured this. I learned from an old Hunter guy this weekend at Annapolis that if you were racing a shoal draft back in those days and complained they would replace the rudder with a deep rudder. Mostly on San Francisco Bay, but who knows what happened elsewhere?

The object of moving the head stay forward was to move the center of effort forward a bit to "improve manners" as I put it, that is , make the boat steer a bit more neutral and less sensitive to rounding up. There are plenty of manufacturers who have moved the head stay forward on a sprit when, after production started, found they had too much helm. Com-Pac comes immediately to mind

My head stay is now 18" forward of the original tack piont. Is it a major difference? Not so much. Did it improve manners a wee bit? I believe so. I already had the anchor platform so adding some fittings made up by Gauhauer (think Island Packet) and some wire and fittings from Rigging only, and some fiberglass work inside the bow wasn't a real big deal. Pictures of my bow platform have been posted several times so I'd guess they can be located. If need be I can post again.

I've had the boat out on the ocean in 30 knots with sizable seas with a brimm full water tank (52 pluss gallons) with two seasick people laying on that and I can assure you the bow does NOT bury.

I found the picture. Cherubini Forum, "excessive rounding up ....." , 12-07-2010, reply numbetr 17.

 

[bugaloo]

Re: Handling characteristics under sail

Sam, I found your post to be most imformative, You answered most of the questions I was going to ask, I have been useing way too much sail and pushing the boat too hard. When I get back in the water in a couple of months I'll do better. With the water tank full I have dipped the bow numerous times here around Cape Lookout where I mostly sail That is why I figured with the genny any futher foward it would be worse. The seas are about 26 to 30 feet apart here and when the wind gets up some of them have no back and you tend to drop off one and dive into the next one. I also charter fish and broke an arm last summer almost stopped dead in the water when we came off of one. I am new to sailing but not to boats. My 33 is also shoal draft and the rudder was 2" deeper than the keel it is now a foot shorter. We are going to wing it on the bottom and I will post a photo of it when we do. I have also ordered the cables for the aft stays like you suggested. Thanks for the info and keep up the good work.

 

[DianaOfBurlington]

The most important thing you can do is to keep the forestay TIGHT. Most people with furlers don't notice that within the aluminum extrusions the stay itself is actually sagging-- both from poor tension and from the weight of the extrusions hanging on it. Headsail furlers add plenty of weight! And the drum often makes it hard to get at the turnbuckle, so people neglect it.

(Forum 'oldies' like Ed are already rolling their eyes at seeing me go off on one of my oldest rants.)

The other thing that helps is allowing the boat to have its as-designed mast rake. Many people with furlers end up having the stay shortened to accommodate toggles and whatever else and end up with actual forward rake (yes-- I have seen it). This absolutely sucks for windward performance.

Back off on the forward lowers, and a little on the uppers. Draw in on the backstay and see if you can make the aft lowers a little loose. Then, assuming level fore-and-aft, dangle the main halyard down to the top of the boom. On a 33 you should have about 16-18". That would be about 1-1/2% or 2%. (Someone check my trig here.) If your performance to windward sucks, and your forestay is arguably tight, I would say you have less than that now.

Mast rake moves the center of effort a little farther back. This causes a boat to 'weathervane' into the wind more easily. Hard on the wind, all boats should carry a little weather helm (hard to tell with most wheel steering these days). Left alone they should slowly round up. This is desired, for safety, and is a feature of a roundish hull shape (boat being shaped like a football at the waterline plane). Modern boats (including Hunters) with their 'sled' shapes don't do as well. They're harder to hold on course and harder to get to point under sail alone. The more they heel the skitterier they get.

I don't know why someone would move the forestay forward; it would do the reverse. Maybe it just adds more sail; and with a big long genny the weather helm (here desired, to a degree) is always exaggerated. I may be a purist; but that's not the only reason I wouldn't mess with the rig design on one of these boats. They really are at least as good as anything ever produced in such quantity, especially today.

 

[sandpiper10471]

Good entry, JC. I was surprised at the 16-18 inches for the H33. I always thought cruising boats were designed to have a pretty plumb mast. Any chance of a table for recommended (designed) mast rake for the whole Cherubini line? Of course, being selfish, I only want to know about the 37C but for once decency requires me to expand the request.

 

[H33CRich]

The most important thing you can do is to keep the forestay TIGHT. Most people with furlers don't notice that within the aluminum extrusions the stay itself is actually sagging-- both from poor tension and from the weight of the extrusions hanging on it. Headsail furlers add plenty of weight! And the drum often makes it hard to get at the turnbuckle, so people neglect it.

(Forum 'oldies' like Ed are already rolling their eyes at seeing me go off on one of my oldest rants.)

...
I don't know why someone would move the forestay forward; it would do the reverse. Maybe it just adds more sail; and with a big long genny the weather helm (here desired, to a degree) is always exaggerated. I may be a purist; but that's not the only reason I wouldn't mess with the rig design on one of these boats. They really are at least as good as anything ever produced in such quantity, especially today.

Moving the forestay forward would open the slot (moves the head sail away from the main) just as adding rake does. The down side of moving the head stay is that the CE also goes up which could lead to more heel, as opposed to adding rake which will lower the CE and heeling force. You are right that you want some weather helm or you can get into a world of hurt. The trick is to keep it as balanced (efficient) as possible with a touch of weather helm. My choice is to leave the stays where they are (tightened to 25% of breaking strength) and to set the rake for balance and a touch of weather helm. I did not buy the H33 to race on the circuit. Its a cruiser that I can enjoy heading down to Cape May or favorite anchorage, and race 4-5 times a year just for the heck of it.