I am experiencing a lot of weather helm on my '93 H23.5, even in what I consider relatively light airs (15 knots). It get's pretty frustrating when I am out cruising along side another comparable boat and while it is tracking true, I am fighting with the main and spilling air to keep mine from rounding up. At other times, I seem to be the only boat on the lake that is reefed down. I tried lifting the keel a little while underway in an attempt to move the boat's CG aft a bit, but it did not seem to help. This is my fouth season with the H23.5 and I suspect that the OEM rudder is just not adequate. I would appreciate it if anyone could direct me to an after market high performance rudder that would help alleviate this unwelcome characteristic ... or any other suggestions to counter the H23.5's tendency to weather helm. Thanks very much in advance. Scott
- Status
I forgot to ask another important question in my post. Since the H23.5 is about as big as the lake I am on can handle(about 3400 acres), I was wondering if Hunter improved the H240's handling characteristics when they introduced the model? Thanks again, Scott
How much mast rake and pre-bend do you have?
Reducing those will decrease weather helm as it moves the effort further forward. Try hardening up the jib while easing the main, (just don't close the slot!) to also move the effort forward. The further aft the effort is beiong applied, the more weather helm you will have.
Reducing those will decrease weather helm as it moves the effort further forward. Try hardening up the jib while easing the main, (just don't close the slot!) to also move the effort forward. The further aft the effort is beiong applied, the more weather helm you will have.
Sail balance
Think of your boat as mounted on a turntable at the keel. If the apparent wind is right off the beam then consider the following: The jib is applying forces that try to turn the boat down wind (lee helm) while the main is applying forces that try to turn the boat into the wind (weather helm). If you have too much weather helm then the jib is too weak or the main is to strong in its' contribution to the mix. On a run the situation is that the main is "out over the water" and tends to turn the boat still to windward but because the forces are "off to one side of the boat" and not because the forces are "behind the keel". I've seen this a thousand times and still don't understand why folks do it but since all the sailing photos have the boat "close hauled" there seem to be a need to "make my boat look like that too". My experience is that you go faster with the boom let out more than you see in the photos. You heel less too. If you have a windex look at the angle the top of the main makes with the apparent wind. The two should be almost lined up or the windex should point slightly "aft" of the sail entry angle. I'll bet that if you check you are grossly over sheeted in the main and under sheeted in the jib. On what point of sail do you notice the problem most/least?
Think of your boat as mounted on a turntable at the keel. If the apparent wind is right off the beam then consider the following: The jib is applying forces that try to turn the boat down wind (lee helm) while the main is applying forces that try to turn the boat into the wind (weather helm). If you have too much weather helm then the jib is too weak or the main is to strong in its' contribution to the mix. On a run the situation is that the main is "out over the water" and tends to turn the boat still to windward but because the forces are "off to one side of the boat" and not because the forces are "behind the keel". I've seen this a thousand times and still don't understand why folks do it but since all the sailing photos have the boat "close hauled" there seem to be a need to "make my boat look like that too". My experience is that you go faster with the boom let out more than you see in the photos. You heel less too. If you have a windex look at the angle the top of the main makes with the apparent wind. The two should be almost lined up or the windex should point slightly "aft" of the sail entry angle. I'll bet that if you check you are grossly over sheeted in the main and under sheeted in the jib. On what point of sail do you notice the problem most/least?
Re: Sail Balance
Thanks for the response, Bill. The tendency to weather helm occurs anywhere from a close reach to a close haul. If I pinch into the wind a little, there is less tendency to weather helm, but at the same time, I lose efficiency and sometimes it is not the direction I want to go. I'd hate to have to tack between a closely pinched haul and a broad reach every time the wind comes up and my course is perpendicular to the blow. Since the H23.5 does not have a jib or main sheet traveler, I can not do a lot of fine adjusting. I have tried boom positions from what I would consider too tight to where the sail is almost luffing. I have tried jib positions in tight where the main is back sailing to where the jib head is luffing and the foot is not. I thought of a larger jib, but with a fixed fairleed on the deck, I don't think it would work. I have tightened the vang as tight as possible in the higher winds to no avail. As a matter of fact, the vessel will weather helm even with the main reefed down and flying a full working jib... just depends on the velocity of the gust dejour and the amount of resulting heel (normally about 40 degrees it starts getting squirrely). Would old blown out sails influence the tendency to head up? Thanks again, Scott
Thanks for the response, Bill. The tendency to weather helm occurs anywhere from a close reach to a close haul. If I pinch into the wind a little, there is less tendency to weather helm, but at the same time, I lose efficiency and sometimes it is not the direction I want to go. I'd hate to have to tack between a closely pinched haul and a broad reach every time the wind comes up and my course is perpendicular to the blow. Since the H23.5 does not have a jib or main sheet traveler, I can not do a lot of fine adjusting. I have tried boom positions from what I would consider too tight to where the sail is almost luffing. I have tried jib positions in tight where the main is back sailing to where the jib head is luffing and the foot is not. I thought of a larger jib, but with a fixed fairleed on the deck, I don't think it would work. I have tightened the vang as tight as possible in the higher winds to no avail. As a matter of fact, the vessel will weather helm even with the main reefed down and flying a full working jib... just depends on the velocity of the gust dejour and the amount of resulting heel (normally about 40 degrees it starts getting squirrely). Would old blown out sails influence the tendency to head up? Thanks again, Scott
Re; Rake & Prebend
Thanks Chris, I'm not sure how much I can tune the H23.5 mast since it does not have a back stay. I raise the mast following Hunter's recommendations to have about a two inch rake from a plumb bob hanging from the top of the mast. I guess I just do not know how to tune the mast of a fractional rig with swept spreaders and no back stay. Best Regards, Scott
Thanks Chris, I'm not sure how much I can tune the H23.5 mast since it does not have a back stay. I raise the mast following Hunter's recommendations to have about a two inch rake from a plumb bob hanging from the top of the mast. I guess I just do not know how to tune the mast of a fractional rig with swept spreaders and no back stay. Best Regards, Scott
What is the condition of your sails?
If weather helm is due to streched, blown out sails there is not much you can do but to re-cut them or replace them.
If weather helm is due to streched, blown out sails there is not much you can do but to re-cut them or replace them.
Sail shape
Well a blown out baggy main will make things harder no matter what else is messed up. Since you have the problem "going to windward" where a flatter main is nice to have, try tightening the halyard, cunningham, and outhaul if you have them. The traveler will help too. If I understand you right, you are sailing with a lot of heel. That is always going to make weather helm and cause lots of "rudder don't work well" issues. As the boat heals the rudder force gets pointed upward and has less effect at countering weather helm. That is one of the major reasons you see racing boats have two rudders and they stick out at an angle to the keel. They only use one at a time and it is pointing straight down when on that tack. Have you tried putting the crew on the windward rail? You can make a dandy traveler by adding an additional sheet tackle and placing the boat end of both the old and new tackle on opposite sides of the boat at the toe rail. Use the windward tackle as a traveler and the leeward one as a sheet.
Well a blown out baggy main will make things harder no matter what else is messed up. Since you have the problem "going to windward" where a flatter main is nice to have, try tightening the halyard, cunningham, and outhaul if you have them. The traveler will help too. If I understand you right, you are sailing with a lot of heel. That is always going to make weather helm and cause lots of "rudder don't work well" issues. As the boat heals the rudder force gets pointed upward and has less effect at countering weather helm. That is one of the major reasons you see racing boats have two rudders and they stick out at an angle to the keel. They only use one at a time and it is pointing straight down when on that tack. Have you tried putting the crew on the windward rail? You can make a dandy traveler by adding an additional sheet tackle and placing the boat end of both the old and new tackle on opposite sides of the boat at the toe rail. Use the windward tackle as a traveler and the leeward one as a sheet.
Some more thoughts
When you balance the sails the rudder is not even needed. In fact you can steer the boat just using the sails and leaving the rudder amidships. Given that fact, I can't see it being the rudder. It has to be the sail balance. Some specific questions so I can get in my mind what the boat looks like In 10 kts of wind on a beam reach what angle does the boom make with the boat centerline? on a close reach? close hauled? Do you have the problem on both tacks?
When you balance the sails the rudder is not even needed. In fact you can steer the boat just using the sails and leaving the rudder amidships. Given that fact, I can't see it being the rudder. It has to be the sail balance. Some specific questions so I can get in my mind what the boat looks like In 10 kts of wind on a beam reach what angle does the boom make with the boat centerline? on a close reach? close hauled? Do you have the problem on both tacks?
Bill
Some specific questions so I can get in my mind what the boat looks like In 10 kts of wind on a beam reach what angle does the boom make with the boat centerline? Answer: About 30 degrees on a close reach? 20 degrees close hauled? Near centerline Do you have the problem on both tacks? Yes, but probably more pronounced on a port tack. Scott
Some specific questions so I can get in my mind what the boat looks like In 10 kts of wind on a beam reach what angle does the boom make with the boat centerline? Answer: About 30 degrees on a close reach? 20 degrees close hauled? Near centerline Do you have the problem on both tacks? Yes, but probably more pronounced on a port tack. Scott
Benny
I agree. I should probably try new sails. Still, would be nice to know if anyone knows of a good after market high performaance rudder.
I agree. I should probably try new sails. Still, would be nice to know if anyone knows of a good after market high performaance rudder.
Rudder Position?
Scott, have you confirmed your rudder is completely "down"? I have extreme weather helm on my H26 after my rudder creeps up. I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I sailed several times and experienced a sore shoulder before thinking to check on my rudder position. When I checked it and readjusted... magic! BrianW
Scott, have you confirmed your rudder is completely "down"? I have extreme weather helm on my H26 after my rudder creeps up. I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I sailed several times and experienced a sore shoulder before thinking to check on my rudder position. When I checked it and readjusted... magic! BrianW
Brian
Thank you for the idea. I am 99.9% sure the rudder is down. When I drop it, I ensure the bracket is very loose, pull the line until it hits the stops, get a visual on the rudder, then tie it off. The lake I sail has very few shallow spots and I grew up on it so I do not have to be concerned about it kicking up. I have sailed with the rudder less than full down on purpose (as well as the center board retracted) while entering a bay that was dicey depth wise. I know what you mean that the rudder is a handful when not fully down. Best Regards, Scott
Thank you for the idea. I am 99.9% sure the rudder is down. When I drop it, I ensure the bracket is very loose, pull the line until it hits the stops, get a visual on the rudder, then tie it off. The lake I sail has very few shallow spots and I grew up on it so I do not have to be concerned about it kicking up. I have sailed with the rudder less than full down on purpose (as well as the center board retracted) while entering a bay that was dicey depth wise. I know what you mean that the rudder is a handful when not fully down. Best Regards, Scott
The balance on my 23.5...
Is perfect, I can sail in 15 knots breezes with just a pinky holding the tiller and riding along at a 30 degree heel. I have found the OEM rudder to be excellent. My sails are original 1993 but was rarely used before I bought it. Try standing the mast up if its raked back a bit by loosening the side stays and tightening the head stay. Also make sure there are no stops holding the rudder from going down all the way.
Is perfect, I can sail in 15 knots breezes with just a pinky holding the tiller and riding along at a 30 degree heel. I have found the OEM rudder to be excellent. My sails are original 1993 but was rarely used before I bought it. Try standing the mast up if its raked back a bit by loosening the side stays and tightening the head stay. Also make sure there are no stops holding the rudder from going down all the way.
- Status