Grounding
- Thread starter Milton.Audas
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<<you mention the word "grounding" when talking about the mast, which is incorrect.>>
Actually, the term is used correctly. Here is the first line from a Wikipedia article about electrical grounding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_ground) that explains it well: In electrical engineering, ground or earth is the reference point in an electrical circuit from which other voltages are measured, or is a common return path for electric current, or a direct physical connection to the Earth.
In grounding a mast for lightning protection, we're talking about the third definition above -a direct physical connection to the Earth. This is the same type of ground you'll find outside your house next to where your electric service comes in to the panel. There will be a steel or copper rod pushed into the dirt with a copper wire clamped to it and running inside to your electric service panel. On our boats, the mast ground for lightning protection goes into the water since there is (hopefully) no dirt close to the bottom of your boat.
You may argue that the negative post of the battery bank is the common return path for electric current (ground definition #2 above) and you are technically correct, but in practice, we don't wire all the circuits to the battery post, we wire to the negative bus at the electric service panel which is in turn, connected to that post.
Actually, the term is used correctly. Here is the first line from a Wikipedia article about electrical grounding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_ground) that explains it well: In electrical engineering, ground or earth is the reference point in an electrical circuit from which other voltages are measured, or is a common return path for electric current, or a direct physical connection to the Earth.
In grounding a mast for lightning protection, we're talking about the third definition above -a direct physical connection to the Earth. This is the same type of ground you'll find outside your house next to where your electric service comes in to the panel. There will be a steel or copper rod pushed into the dirt with a copper wire clamped to it and running inside to your electric service panel. On our boats, the mast ground for lightning protection goes into the water since there is (hopefully) no dirt close to the bottom of your boat.
You may argue that the negative post of the battery bank is the common return path for electric current (ground definition #2 above) and you are technically correct, but in practice, we don't wire all the circuits to the battery post, we wire to the negative bus at the electric service panel which is in turn, connected to that post.
Thanks, except for the fact that I think we'll agree boats and houses are different when it comes to A.C. All I'm sayin' is that it's called bonding (per the referenced link) on a boat to avoid the repetitive confusion that seems to stem, especially from small boat owners with outboards, so as to attempt to avoid confusing D.C. grounding and mast bonding for lightning strikes. Your techniques is correct.
You are also again correct on the negative wiring routing - different end of the same wire!
You are also again correct on the negative wiring routing - different end of the same wire!
Oh Lerd. All this madness. Bonding and grounding.
I thought my boat was grounded when I ran it up on "Dead Mans Reef" last year.
Anyway, I understand the diff between ground and bond. Other boat has 10 thru-hulls, and everyone of them, plus the vents, etc. are bonded, and they are also grounded. It would make zero logical sense to bond every one of the silly things together, if they were not grounded as well. All that would do is insure the even rate of decay, or destruction due to electrolysis. So I'm considering unbonding, ie: ungrounding the whole thing, as apposed to replacing every thru hull in the boat if they start dying. If I'm not mistaken, the AC, and DC panels are also grounded together at the engine. It is ALL grounded, (and bonded), for the exception of minor deck hardware pieces.
I digress. Hook the radio to the minus post on the battery.
And Gregg, the Grand Supreme Dictator for Life is an English major,
so I've been getting some real good book lernin...
I thought my boat was grounded when I ran it up on "Dead Mans Reef" last year.
Anyway, I understand the diff between ground and bond. Other boat has 10 thru-hulls, and everyone of them, plus the vents, etc. are bonded, and they are also grounded. It would make zero logical sense to bond every one of the silly things together, if they were not grounded as well. All that would do is insure the even rate of decay, or destruction due to electrolysis. So I'm considering unbonding, ie: ungrounding the whole thing, as apposed to replacing every thru hull in the boat if they start dying. If I'm not mistaken, the AC, and DC panels are also grounded together at the engine. It is ALL grounded, (and bonded), for the exception of minor deck hardware pieces.
I digress. Hook the radio to the minus post on the battery.
And Gregg, the Grand Supreme Dictator for Life is an English major,
so I've been getting some real good book lernin...
HA! I married a special education teacher and when she found out she couldn't bring this special ed student to a third grade reading level she threw up her hands saying she gives up and headed out the door. But seriously, she's still my best friend and I would still do anything for her she asked. She didn't like boats so she had to go! LOL
I appreciate this thread immensely because I was intimidated by that shore panel connector on my boat which was direct wired to 2 ac outlets on the boat and working in residential and industrial construction, I wouldn't dare connect shore power to that thing the way it's wired. I'm the type of person that if it's installed, you're supposed to use it sometime so I wanted to make sure it was as safe as it could be and when I got a chance to get this 30 amp ac panel for a steal, I jumped at it. Not having an outboard and not having under water metal thru hulls, I wanted to make sure that any grounding or bonding for AC, DC or lightning strike was appropriate.
Staying out of an electrical storm when on a boat with a 25 foot lightning rod sticking straight up seems common sense but I've been amazed at how fast my dad's Wellcraft would go when it planed out and we still couldn't beat the storm to shore on the Pamlico Sound when a storm appeared out of no where (this happened more than once) and it seems a sailboat would just be screwed.
I appreciate this thread immensely because I was intimidated by that shore panel connector on my boat which was direct wired to 2 ac outlets on the boat and working in residential and industrial construction, I wouldn't dare connect shore power to that thing the way it's wired. I'm the type of person that if it's installed, you're supposed to use it sometime so I wanted to make sure it was as safe as it could be and when I got a chance to get this 30 amp ac panel for a steal, I jumped at it. Not having an outboard and not having under water metal thru hulls, I wanted to make sure that any grounding or bonding for AC, DC or lightning strike was appropriate.
Staying out of an electrical storm when on a boat with a 25 foot lightning rod sticking straight up seems common sense but I've been amazed at how fast my dad's Wellcraft would go when it planed out and we still couldn't beat the storm to shore on the Pamlico Sound when a storm appeared out of no where (this happened more than once) and it seems a sailboat would just be screwed.
Please, please, please get a proper corrosion survey by an ABYC certified corrosion specialist BEFORE you do this. There is a boat load of bad info, misinformation & misunderstanding about corrosion, bonding etc. out there and the only way to know if your boat is a good candidate for un-bonding is to have it tested.
The problem with any discussion of bonding/corrosion is that folks often pick and choose bits and pieces they "want" to agree with from the different experts but then don't apply the whole "system" and wind up with a mix, and the potential for severe corrosion issues.
As for the radio ground, just tie it back to the battery neg, that's how it is most often done on small boats with outboards and it meets ABYC E-11.
Ugg, it's too hot to sail, or to work on them either. So, I'll kind of respond.
If you're looking for advice on how to hook up your juke box, I think that's pretty much been covered. So in an overt attempt to hijack this thread entirely, I apologize in advance..
To get a rebuttal from Maine Sail is actually a compliment. I consider his advice to be the final authority online, on anything marine related, I really do. Still do.
I think part of my posting something I'm not sure about, or even a totally crazy idea, sometimes net me the most results. I used to write a column on religion or politics that the editor purposely wanted me to raise the ilk of respondents, and having no opinions either way, on either subject, I was the ideal candidate. This habit persist evidently...
On the bonding issue, the thought that I have seriously considered, is to bond all the thru hulls together, and run a dedicated anode to them only. That would leave my galvanic isolator to deal with the prop and shaft. I don't know any corrosion specialists, but after extensive "research", and two very respected marine companies that frequent the yard got to weigh in on it.....nobody knows. When I posted this question on another site, that is dedicated to this boat in particular, the response was meager. I even posed this to our local Witch Doctor in residence, and he mumbled something about boiling a cast bronze thru hull in his cauldron for awhile, and went wandering off kind of googly eyed toward the beach.
So, I wish that there was some known parameter. It is all too vague. I like firm calculations, solid math, or at least an equation to work from. If an alternator fails, the repair is simple. It either works, or it doesn't. On or off. Yes or no. But here, the variables are infinitesimal.
And there are more opinions on this than politics or religion.
A lot of this is just supposed to be funny. If anyone can set me straight, I truly welcome it.
Nor to imply any disrespect to our friend Maine Sail. His advice converted me to Sika 291, without which, I would end it all...
If you're looking for advice on how to hook up your juke box, I think that's pretty much been covered. So in an overt attempt to hijack this thread entirely, I apologize in advance..
To get a rebuttal from Maine Sail is actually a compliment. I consider his advice to be the final authority online, on anything marine related, I really do. Still do.
I think part of my posting something I'm not sure about, or even a totally crazy idea, sometimes net me the most results. I used to write a column on religion or politics that the editor purposely wanted me to raise the ilk of respondents, and having no opinions either way, on either subject, I was the ideal candidate. This habit persist evidently...
On the bonding issue, the thought that I have seriously considered, is to bond all the thru hulls together, and run a dedicated anode to them only. That would leave my galvanic isolator to deal with the prop and shaft. I don't know any corrosion specialists, but after extensive "research", and two very respected marine companies that frequent the yard got to weigh in on it.....nobody knows. When I posted this question on another site, that is dedicated to this boat in particular, the response was meager. I even posed this to our local Witch Doctor in residence, and he mumbled something about boiling a cast bronze thru hull in his cauldron for awhile, and went wandering off kind of googly eyed toward the beach.
So, I wish that there was some known parameter. It is all too vague. I like firm calculations, solid math, or at least an equation to work from. If an alternator fails, the repair is simple. It either works, or it doesn't. On or off. Yes or no. But here, the variables are infinitesimal.
And there are more opinions on this than politics or religion.
A lot of this is just supposed to be funny. If anyone can set me straight, I truly welcome it.
Nor to imply any disrespect to our friend Maine Sail. His advice converted me to Sika 291, without which, I would end it all...
I guess no matter who you ask, in the end, it's the person's opinion you like the most?
Since Chris has given me loads of fantastic advise and his advice seems grounded to the same principal I love the most (KISS-Keep It Simple Stupid), I like his opinions.
When I first saw the 30 amp connector on the side of my vessel (before I acquired it) I thought of it as overkill on a small overnight camper sloop but my first morning of trying to brew a pot of coffee in the cockpit over propane in a stiff breeze I thought how nice it would have been to have shore panel at that time. Investigating the design on board scared me more than the want or need of the caffeine. I was able to get a 30 amp panel with 2 15 amp circuits and noticed I had to run DC to it for the reverse polarity circuit and that started me thinking what about the green ground, should it go to the same point as DC negative? Didn't think about it just being a branch circuit coming and going back to the breaker box on the dock; just over thinking it as usual.
Chris helped "ground" me again with KISS. Thank you Chris.
Since Chris has given me loads of fantastic advise and his advice seems grounded to the same principal I love the most (KISS-Keep It Simple Stupid), I like his opinions.
When I first saw the 30 amp connector on the side of my vessel (before I acquired it) I thought of it as overkill on a small overnight camper sloop but my first morning of trying to brew a pot of coffee in the cockpit over propane in a stiff breeze I thought how nice it would have been to have shore panel at that time. Investigating the design on board scared me more than the want or need of the caffeine. I was able to get a 30 amp panel with 2 15 amp circuits and noticed I had to run DC to it for the reverse polarity circuit and that started me thinking what about the green ground, should it go to the same point as DC negative? Didn't think about it just being a branch circuit coming and going back to the breaker box on the dock; just over thinking it as usual.
Chris helped "ground" me again with KISS. Thank you Chris.
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