Groco toilet

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May 22, 2004
121
Hunter h41 San Francisco
Recently installed a Groco combination manual/electric toilet. Groco is now telling me that their toilets are meant for sea water intake and not pressurized fresh water. Also, they were concerned about toilet water backing up into the fresh water system. The fellow then suggested I get a "FreshFlush" that would reduce the water pressure going into the toilet and would prevent the fresh water from contaminating the fresh water supply.http://freshflush.net/
Not sure if this is accurate information or a sales pitch for a product. Any help would be appreciated.
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,913
- - LIttle Rock
If only people would learn to read the instructions and ask questions FIRST... <sigh>...

If I were you, I'd return the toilet...'cuz what you bought (Groco Model K is not only a sea water toilet that should never have been connected to the fresh water supply (and which you'd have known if you'd read the installation instructions) , but is also a VERY expensive MANUAL toilet on which a motor has been hung that does nothing more than replace the pump handle...the pump is still a manual pump.

If you did this because you thought you wanted an electric toilet that can be converted to manual in the event of a power failure... consider this:in the event of a power failure, you'll have a lot more to worry about than whether you can flush the toilet...'cuz you'll lose nav and communications electronics, maybe steering...your engine, lights...but you WILL still have a bucket and a long line that'll let you toss it overboard to "flush" it!

Hopefully you didn't buy a used on eBay, 'cuz old Groco EB and K toilets have a nasty tendency to recirculate bowl contents through the intake...something you do NOT want to happen to a toilet connected to your fresh water system! And if you bought it new, you've already spent well over $1000 for that toilet...the "FreshFlush" would run the price tag up another $300. For half that much or even less, you can have any one of a several TOP quality macerating electric toilets that are designed to use pressurized flush water. Check these out:

Raritan Elegance toilet

Raritan Sea Era

Tecma Toilets (retailer's site) http://www.yachtproductsintl.com/category.aspx?categoryID=45

Then, before you jump in and make another expensive mistake, come back with any questions. I'll be glad to help you make the RIGHT choice this time!
 
May 22, 2004
121
Hunter h41 San Francisco
Thanks for the info Peggy. The install instructions make no mention of not to be used with fresh water. The tech at Groco also said that they do not mention that fact in their advertising. Yes, an expensive mistake. I'll look into your suggestions.
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,913
- - LIttle Rock
You're right, John...they don't...

The ONLY mfr who doesn't. And I'm amazed!

The only possible justification I can think of is, they just assume that anyone who'd spend $1000+ for a manual toilet would know that NO manual toilet can be connected to the fresh water system...that only electric toilets specifically designed to use pressurized flush water--and therefore have all the built-in vacuum breakers, siphon breaks and solenoid vavles needed--can be. Otoh, it only takes one sentence in the instructions to warn people...and it will only take one lawsuit arising from e-coli contamination (HIGHLY possible in older EB (discontinued) and K) to make 'em wish they had!
 
Jul 31, 2009
34
2 Contest 36s Sag Harbor
I have a model K and often use fresh water from the hand shower fill/flush the bowl. In fact even when I DO use sea water when I leave the boat, I run fresh water through it... hopefully enough so little or no sea water remains in the toilet or hose.
 
V

Vic Willman

There's a lot of confusion regarding fresh water heads and raw water heads. Let me try to explain a little:

1. There's no such thing as a salt water head and there's no such thing as a fresh water head.

2. Any head that flushes with water from outside the boat, be it salt water, brackish water, or fresh water, coming from a lake, river, stream, bay, ocean, mud puddle or whatever - is a RAW water flushing head.

3. Fresh water flushing heads are those that tie into your PRESSURE WATER SYSTEM on the boat - the same water that you shower with, wash your hands with, cook with, or drink. They utilize an electric solenoid valve and a special atmoshperic vacuum breaker to assure that the toilet water can never back up into your fresh water system and contaminate it. The solenoid valve opens when you push the button to flush the toilet, like an electric faucet, and pressure water comes into the toilet bowl for rinsing. The valve closes when you let go of the button to stop flushing the toilet.

Raw water flushing heads cannot be connected to the fresh water supply, either to the pressure system or to the non-pressurized reservoir tank without taking a risk of contaminating the fresh water system and you coming down with the heebie-jeebies, cholera, or whatever. The are not designed for that application and should never be used in any application other than what they were designed for.

People, after the fact, will sometimes decide that they don't like their raw water-flushing head because of the odor that comes from the outside water, particularly when in a marina, or the fact that the raw water stains the inside of the toilet bowl, etc., etc., and wish to convert the existing head to flush with pressurized fresh water. It CAN be done with most electric toilets, but it is neither cheap nor easy to do it. It CANNOT be done with manual toilets. Manual toilets are designed for raw water only, and can never be safely converted to flush with fresh water from your pressure system or from your fresh water reservoir tank. The only way a manual toilet can safely be flushed with fresh water from onboard the boat is to add a another tank, dedicated to the toilet only, and have the toilet draw its rinse water from that tank. You'll have to refill the tank when it empties.

It is best, when replacing a head, to do some research BEFORE purchasing the replacement, to be absolutely sure you are buying what you want, and what you need. Don't simply let the cost be the sole determining factor; do your homework before you make your selection.

And don't buy the idea that your toilet will do both - flush with raw water and/or pressurized fresh water. There IS such an animal, but it is a special order item from the manufacturer, at a "special cost." West Marine, Defender and the other discount houses WILL NOT have it in their catalog - in spite of what their unknowing but well-meaning salespeople may tell you. I personally discourage buying them, because the installation is overly complicated, and troubleshooting...hah! Should you develop problems at some point down the road, trying to troubleshoot the head becomes a real nightmare!
 
May 22, 2004
121
Hunter h41 San Francisco
This has certainly been an education. I thank all of you for your input. I actually did quite a bit of homework. Primary task was finding a hand pump/electric toilet that would fit in the space that I had. This Groco was the only toilet that fit the space criteria. Since my Quiet Flush toilets work with pressurized water with no contamination concerns why would an amateur think that would be a problem with a Groco.
To compound the problem I have a PuraSan and not a Lectra/Scan. Consequently I have to install a salt water intake and then go directly overboard and/or by pass the PuraSan and go to the holding tank. This I believe can be done. Not sure if the salt water will be a problem with what the PuraSan puts into the holding tank. (Aft toilet is a Quiet Flush and goes directly to the PuraSan then into the holding tank)
As I understand it my options are:
1. Install a salt water feed to the Groco and then go directly overboard with a Y valve to go to the holding tank.
2. Start all over.

Again thanks for all the input. As usual this forum has answered many questions that you cannot always get from salespeople and installers.
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,913
- - LIttle Rock
John, PuraSan works equally well in fresh OR salt water

See page 6 in the installation/operation maintenance instructions: http://www.raritaneng.com/pdf_files/purasan/L405v0507.pdf "Water: Salt, brackish or fresh" (I read 'em to make sure it was in there this time!)

So re-routing your toilet intake line to a below waterline thru-hull is the ONLY change you need to make in your plumbing intake. If you don't already have one available--or even if you do--the head sink drain line is a great choice because it provides a means of SAFELY using onboard fresh water to flush the sea water out of the system before the boat will sit.
 
May 22, 2004
121
Hunter h41 San Francisco
Well Peggy, I think that you have pulled me out of my "toilet depression". Of course I should have checked the PuraSan manual. A big thanks for doing my homework. Are you saying that I can use my vanity discharge as a salt water pick-up to supply my toilet with salt water? If that is correct how do I then use it as a fresh water flush? You lost me there.

FYI, plan on doing the Ba Ha ha ha. Once in Mexico plan on staying down there for quite some time. Just trying to put together the best possible options. This is aboard a 2008 Hunter 41. Having had this Hunter apart many times I am somewhat disappointed with part of the construction. For a few dollars more they could have really built a first class boat. I have had to replace some hoses and they have made it quite difficult. I have added insulation to the refrig and freezer. This would have been real easy at the factory. Also, I have vacuumed pounds of sawdust that should have been removed during the building of the boat. This is not a major issue but again a little more thought and a much better boat would be the result.

Again, thanks for your prompt and honest response. I am hauling the boat out this Monday for other reasons and I hope to resolve this toilet project at this time. As you can imagine I have several projects going on before I get out of town. So my attention as been quite distracted. I shall let you know how it all works out.

Thanks again,

John
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,913
- - LIttle Rock
Well Peggy, I think that you have pulled me out of my "toilet depression". Of course I should have checked the PuraSan manual. A big thanks for doing my homework. Are you saying that I can use my vanity discharge as a salt water pick-up to supply my toilet with salt water? If that is correct how do I then use it as a fresh water flush? You lost me there./quote]

Ok..you've left with a choice of typing another 1000 words or talking...which means t's time to STOP typiing and start talking! So send me an email (just click on my name above my photo) and I'll send you contact info that will let you call me so I can explain it ALL to you.:doh::D
 
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