GPS info to IPAD

Jackdaw · Feb 27, 2014

Sigh...

The GPS-enabled versions of the iPad work fine with or without cell or WiFi coverage. End of story.

The non-GPS versions can work with nav apps if you pair a BlueTooth GPS to the ipad. Like this one.

http://www.amazon.com/GNS-5870-MFI-Receiver-iPhone/dp/B004289ZW0

Brian D · Feb 27, 2014

I have a Samsung Galaxy Tab 3 10.1 and the GPS is both US and Soviet (GLONASS). The tab is wifi only and I can usually lock on a signal within a minute or so.

On the iPad, I understand that you need both the WiFi + 3g. However, you do not need to have service nor do you need to install a SIM card. You will be using the Location Services of the iPad. Location Services turn on the GPS for both GPS and A-GPS. iPads without 3g do not have Location Services.

Hope that helps.

added: Since you probably have no desire to use the iPad for other than navigation, why not look for a used 1st gen iPad with WiFi and 3g. Save yourself some money. That was my plan but my wife bought me the Samsung for my birthday.

alexco38 · Feb 27, 2014

The built in GPS sucks the juice too much unless you hook up the charge cable.

Jackdaw · Feb 27, 2014

Brian D said:
On the iPad, I understand that you need both the WiFi + 3g. However, you do not need to have service nor do you need to install a SIM card. You will be using the Location Services of the iPad. Location Services turn on the GPS for both GPS and A-GPS. iPads without 3g do not have Location Services.

That is 100% wrong. All of the location services are built into ALL iPads. If an ipad does not have GPS, it uses cell triangulation and WiFi MAC location to give approximate location. GPS add higher accuracy if present. This no LBS story is a myth spread by people that don't know any better.

A direct quote/review from a user of the device I referenced.

Like some, I bought the Wi-Fi only iPad because I specifically didn't want the 3G capability. But in hindsight, I did miss at least the GPS capability. So to make up for my "remorse", I ordered the external bluetooth GNS 5870. It pairs quickly with the iPad buetooth and locked on to 6 satellites (based on one app's notification) through a large upstairs window in about 2 or 3 minutes.

Tim R. · Feb 27, 2014

I use the built in GPS in my gen 4 ipad that is both wifi and 4g. I do not have a cellular contract. I have not noticed a significant battery drain while using my Garmin Mobile app.

I just purchased a Garmin 840xs chartplotter that supports the Helm app. This allows me to control the chartplotter from the ipad if I like. I will use the Garmin mobile to manage my waypoints and routes.

tommays · Feb 27, 2014

My iphone and Ipad air 4G provide perfect GPS WITHOUT cellular reception

My chart plotter still has much better daytime visibility BUT I can plan various routes very fast on the ipad

Sprega · Feb 27, 2014

Get a Bad Elf GPS receiver for less than $100 for your wifi only iPad. Get the free Memory-Map app and go sailing.

Brian D · Feb 27, 2014

Mark, I know on my 3gs I can turn off my SIM (no cell coverage) and turn off my WiFi, but as long as Location Services is on then I can use my GPS. However, once Location Services is turned off, all bets are off. No GPS.

I think the guy at the store is getting A-GPS confused with true GPS. Like I said above about my Samsung, I just played with it and it took 42 seconds for the GPS to lock on both the US and GLONASS birds visible.

I think the OP will be fine with an iPad that has both WiFi (to download the charts for off-line use) and 3g (but no cell coverage needed).

Jackdaw · Feb 27, 2014

Mark Maulden said:
Jackdaw.. Far as I know, iPads are not marked as "GPS enabled" or not. So how are you basing your response? Also, your response and quotes seem to conflict.... I guess I can go to the apple store and play with the options (location services) to see what happens. Apple Care and local Apple specialists state that to use GPS you have to be in cell coverage....They also say I cannot tether an IPAD to an iPhone for GPS data....They say an iPhone will not get GPS outside of cell coverage.....

Mark,

Only the 3G/4G iPad have an integrated GPS chip. But:
All iOS devices have Location Services,
The 3G/4G units with GPS can use GPS without cell coverage
The WiFi versions can have external GPS added.

Some Apple statements look like they state that GPS cannot cannot be used without internet, but what they really mean is that APPLE MAPS cannot be used without internet, because it downloads maps dynamically (like Google maps). The GPS is fine, and with a app with local maps (like all marine apps) works perfectly. It just might take longer to get a fix.

Jackdaw · Feb 27, 2014

Mark Maulden said:
your response and quotes seem to conflict....

Sorry, where?

Mark Maulden said:
They also say I cannot tether an IPAD to an iPhone for GPS data

Thats true, but I don't think anyone said otherwise.

Mark Maulden said:
They say an iPhone will not get GPS outside of cell coverage.....

Flat out WRONG. I've been in this business a long time. Due to the interplay of GPS, WiFi, maps, etc, the actual answer is complex and nuanced. Apple corporate creates canned responses so 19 year olds with High School educations can spit out the simple words. People af Garmin, NavX,and Navionics spend HUGE amounts of time trying to tell potential customers the whole, real story.

Stu Jackson · Feb 27, 2014

Mark Maulden said:
J.... I guess I can go to the apple store and play with the options (location services) to see what happens. Apple Care and local Apple specialists state....

Mark,

The folks at Apple stores, in addition to Jack's response, "are idiots."

This is a direct quote from my son, who has been having issues with his MacbookPro.

First they told him it was the hard drive. Then they told him it was OK, go home and start it up from your install disk. That didn't work. Then they told him it could be the logic board or the ribbon cable but maybe a new hard drive would work. New hard drive doesn't work.

All he wants the blinkin' idiots to do is to fix his f-ing computer.

He goes into the a-store and there are five hundred employees walking around texting on their devices and only two "helpers" at the "bar" who have no access or don't care to look up his history, which hasn't been updated by the last "idiot" he spoke to. No repair continuity at all.

Anyone know someone who fixes apple-crap other than the "idiots" at the A-stores?

My desktop had some WXP issues, I took it in and got it fixed in two days!

What's so blinkin' hard.

Rant over.

But truly, Mark, the manuals for these gizmos are all online. Plus, if you read any boating forum for more than a week, this same darn question keeps coming up, hence Jack's "sigh..." which is not unreasonable. And the same question has been around for more than two years. There's also RTFM, F stands for Funny.

Brian D · Feb 27, 2014

Mark, read this thread if you haven't already.

forums.lancer.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=159544

Jackdaw · Feb 27, 2014

Guys,

This is how it works.

ALL iOS devices have a Location Based Services Manager (LBSM) module in software, designed to tell applications where the device is. The application has NO idea where the operating system gets this information.

In fact, depending on hardware present it can come from 4 sources, and all can be used by iOS at once. iOS then picks the best and reports to the applications. When an app first asks the LBSM for locations, the LBSM looks at several location services at once. Each service can return a Lat/Long and an EPE (Estimated Position Error)

If WiFi is on and attached, the MAC address of the attached hotspot is grabbed and the number sent to Apple. Apple then compares the number to a database that it maintains, with associated Lat/Longs for known MAC addresses. If a high-reliability match is found, the service is send a Lat/Long. The EPE will be about 100 feet.

If cell is on and a network is attached, the CELL_ID of the tower is grabbed and the number sent to Apple. Apple then compares the number to a database that it maintains, with associated Lat/Longs of towers. The service is sent the Lat/Long. The EPE will be 2000 feet to 20 miles, depending on tower density.

If local GPS hardware is found and a data connection is present, the rough Lat/Long and Time-of-day is sent to an Apple server, which returns information the GPS chip can use to find satellites rapidly. This is the so-called 'fast-start' capability of A-GPS. Without an active data connection the time-to-first-fix will be longer.

If GPS is found and a fix is made, the GPS service returns the LAT/Long and EPE to the LBSM.

If external GPS (BT or connector) is found and the EPE is BETTER than that of the internal GPS, or there is no internal GPS, that fix is used.

On devices without hardware GPS, the ONLY thing different is that the hardware GPS service simply returns NO_HARDWARE to the LBSM, and it continues on.

The LBSM continues to use and report the fix with the best EPE available. With or without WiFi, Cell or GPS.

Bgjj · Feb 27, 2014

Jackdaw said:
Guys,

This is how it works.

ALL iOS devices have a Location Based Services Manager (LBSM) module in software, designed to tell applications where the device is. The application has NO idea where the operating system gets this information.

In fact, depending on hardware present it can come from 4 sources, and all can be used by iOS at once. iOS then picks the best and reports to the applications. When an app first asks the LBSM for locations, the LBSM looks at several location services at once. Each service can return a Lat/Long and an EPE (Estimated Position Error)

If WiFi is on and attached, the MAC address of the attached hotspot is grabbed and the number sent to Apple. Apple then compares the number to a database that it maintains, with associated Lat/Longs for known MAC addresses. If a high-reliability match is found, the service is send a Lat/Long. The EPE will be about 100 feet.

If cell is on and a network is attached, the CELL_ID of the tower is grabbed and the number sent to Apple. Apple then compares the number to a database that it maintains, with associated Lat/Longs of towers. The service is sent the Lat/Long. The EPE will be 2000 feet to 20 miles, depending on tower density.

If local GPS hardware is found and a data connection is present, the rough Lat/Long and Time-of-day is sent to an Apple server, which returns information the GPS chip can use to find satellites rapidly. This is the so-called 'fast-start' capability of A-GPS. Without an active data connection the time-to-first-fix will be longer.

If GPS is found and a fix is made, the GPS service returns the LAT/Long and EPE to the LBSM.

If external GPS (BT or connector) is found and the EPE is BETTER than that of the internal GPS, or there is no internal GPS, that fix is used.

On devices without hardware GPS, the ONLY thing different is that the hardware GPS service simply returns NO_HARDWARE to the LBSM, and it continues on.

The LBSM continues to use and report the fix with the best EPE available. With or without WiFi, Cell or GPS.

Jackdaw. I happen to have Ipad with GPS and it just great. Are saying you will still get a fix without GPS (and out of wifi and cell range) ?

Maine Sail · Feb 27, 2014

Mark Maulden said:
Jackdaw.. Far as I know, iPads are not marked as "GPS enabled" or not. So how are you basing your response? Also, your response and quotes seem to conflict.... I guess I can go to the apple store and play with the options (location services) to see what happens. Apple Care and local Apple specialists state that to use GPS you have to be in cell coverage....They also say I cannot tether an IPAD to an iPhone for GPS data....They say an iPhone will not get GPS outside of cell coverage.....

The Apple "geniuses" are not so smart when tight comes to GPS & iPads.

Fact: My iPad Air 4G locks in GPS position even when far out of both cell phone and wifi range. It is complete bunk that you need wifi or cell service to use the GPS chip in 3G & 4G enabled iPads..

Fact: My iPad Air 4G locks in GPS position with wifi off and no cell data plan and will do this far out of reach of either cell towers of wifi.

Fact: My wife and daughters non 3G / 4G iPads DO NOT WORK unless you add an external GPS to them.

If you don't want an external Blutooth or wired GPS dongle then you will need a 3G or 4G equipped iPad.. I got the same BS run around from the "genius" cult members at the local Apple store. Pretty frustrating when folks calling themselves geniuses on a product have no clue how it actually works...:cussing:

Tim R. · Feb 27, 2014

I have no cell service enabled on my 4g ipad. I get 5m accuracy with my Garmin mobile app. Mark, I guarantee you that the internal GPS in a 4g ipad is capable of marine navigation outside of cell service. The idiots at the store have no clue.

You need to trust the people with the real life experience, not the salespeople at Apple. They want you to get a cell contract that you do not need.

Stu Jackson · Feb 27, 2014

Mark Maulden said:
RTFM?? PS maybe I should of searched "all discussions" instead of "ask all sailors"....?

Mark, I apologize, didn't mean to, or hope I didn't sound like I was "aiming" at you.

Searching: about a year or so ago, Phil Herring redesigned and/or improved the search engine on the site. He asked for input. My contribution, and from some others, was to NOT default to any particular discussion group, and that's what he did. That means it searches ALL posts, regardless of where someone might have started. That's also why I suggest that folks use the Show All Forums when they start looking at posts. For example, there's lots of good input from the C310 Group, but they don't show up unless you look specifically there or use the Show All Forums.

This one

Show posts from all forums, all sites

Best regards,

Stu