I have a 1982 27'Catalina with a Universal 5411 Diesel engine. Currently, the engine won't start. It appears to crank very well but just won't fire. I cleaned the fuel filter in the spring, so I don't think its that. The boat battery is brand new. I even added diesel to the fuel tank so I'm close to full. The next thing I'm going to try is to replace the glow plugs. I'm not even sure where they are within the engine. Has anyone ever replaced glow plugs? Is it hard to do? Any other things I might try to get this thing started.
Glow Plugs installation
- Thread starter pres18308
- Start date
- Status
try first
sounds like she's starving for fuel. You may have inadvertantly put the seal in the filter in wrong and sealed up the flow of fuel, assuming she ran good before you did anything at all to the motor. If she just stopped, then it is fuel. Just for S&G's check the pull mechanism that kills the engine and make sure it is in the down position. Next, you can bleed each cyclinder at the motor to make sure you are getting fuel. It's not that hard to do. Crack open one, crank the motor (or have someone do it), and if you have fuel, that cylinder should fire up. Then do another and finally the third. Did you have crud in the filter? If yes, it might have gotten sucked into the lines and until you clean them, it won't start. Unless you are in Antarctica or at the North pole, glow plugs shouldn't be a factor.
sounds like she's starving for fuel. You may have inadvertantly put the seal in the filter in wrong and sealed up the flow of fuel, assuming she ran good before you did anything at all to the motor. If she just stopped, then it is fuel. Just for S&G's check the pull mechanism that kills the engine and make sure it is in the down position. Next, you can bleed each cyclinder at the motor to make sure you are getting fuel. It's not that hard to do. Crack open one, crank the motor (or have someone do it), and if you have fuel, that cylinder should fire up. Then do another and finally the third. Did you have crud in the filter? If yes, it might have gotten sucked into the lines and until you clean them, it won't start. Unless you are in Antarctica or at the North pole, glow plugs shouldn't be a factor.
To start with I have no specific knowledge
of that engine. That said, the glow plugs will have a wire going to each one, put an amp meter in the circuit and see if they are working, see if they are getting 12 volts. You cleaned the filters, did you then bleed the air from the fuel lines? Just a little bubble in the line to the injector will prevent the injector from opening. If you didn't bleed the system, loosen the nut on each injector while someone cranks the engine. When you get fuel and no bubbles from each injector in turn , retighten the nut. Don't loosen them all at once and a quarter or half turn is plenty. Usually about 4 or 5 turns of the engine is enough for each injector, more than that just makes a mess.
of that engine. That said, the glow plugs will have a wire going to each one, put an amp meter in the circuit and see if they are working, see if they are getting 12 volts. You cleaned the filters, did you then bleed the air from the fuel lines? Just a little bubble in the line to the injector will prevent the injector from opening. If you didn't bleed the system, loosen the nut on each injector while someone cranks the engine. When you get fuel and no bubbles from each injector in turn , retighten the nut. Don't loosen them all at once and a quarter or half turn is plenty. Usually about 4 or 5 turns of the engine is enough for each injector, more than that just makes a mess.
It should start without glow plugs
when the ambient air temp is above freezing. Check the exhaust for smoke while cranking after 10 seconds. no smoke, no fuel.
when the ambient air temp is above freezing. Check the exhaust for smoke while cranking after 10 seconds. no smoke, no fuel.
If you're doing all this
then make sure you don't fill up your muffler. If you crank for more than 30 seconds, reccomendations are to drain it. Check also for S&G that you've reopened the fuel valve from the tank to the filter after you changed the filter. As many have said, how do I know this, you donwanna ask...
then make sure you don't fill up your muffler. If you crank for more than 30 seconds, reccomendations are to drain it. Check also for S&G that you've reopened the fuel valve from the tank to the filter after you changed the filter. As many have said, how do I know this, you donwanna ask...
My Universal M25...
will not start without the activating the glowplugs for at least 15 seconds even in the summer so it still could be your problem but I would suspect if it is, they aren't getting any voltage.
will not start without the activating the glowplugs for at least 15 seconds even in the summer so it still could be your problem but I would suspect if it is, they aren't getting any voltage.
Step by Step
Pres, I just went through this. Take my hand, and follow me. My problem was a choked-off fuel supply caused by a clogged screen at the end of the pick-up tube in the fuel tank. CHECK THIS FIRST by taking off the outgoing fuel line, then taking off the brass fitting on the tank & pulling out the pick-up tube. If the screen is clogged with 24 years of grime, toss the screen & reassemble. You might be good-to-go right there and will have solved your problem in 10 minutes, including putting the cushions back. If it doesn't start after that, something else is interrupting the fuel supply to the injectors. Then it's a matter of either: 1) bleeding the air out of the injector lines as Ross recommends (as easy as bleeding brakes), or 2) finding the supply problem between the tank and the engine. On the 5411 (M25), you will see three metal high-pressure fuel lines coming out of the injector pump on the right side of the engine, curving up, over, and then down to feed each of the three injectors. The tops of the glow plugs stick out from the head at an angle below each of these tubes, and can be identified by the thick wire that supplies current to all three of them. You can test the plugs simply by trying to heat them up for 30 seconds and then feeling the tops that protrude from the head. Be careful: they get very hot. If they don't, suspect the wiring/switch before the plugs themselves. Diesel engines are very simple. Diesel fuel combusts because of heat and pressure (you've got 22:1 compression), so chances are very high it's going to be a fuel supply problem. You're going to start at the injector caps, checking for fuel, and work your way back, component by component, until you identify the problem. Ross' instructions are right: crack a line loose with a wrench where the metal tube attaches to the injector, but don't twist it open. Have someone hit the starter while you slowly open the nut a bit. There should be a squirt from it every time the injector pump sends a pulse of fuel down that line. If it's good, move on to the next one. If there are bubbles, bleed them out, then close the nut. Air could have entered the system when the filter was changed. If so, the cylinder will begin to fire as soon as the air is gone and you tighten the nut down again. Check all three in this manner. AFTER EVERY 30 SECONDS OF STARTER TIME, DRAIN THE MUFFLER, or seawater could back up into your exhaust ports and into the cylinders: nasty expensive. If you loosen each nut but have no fuel flow (which is my prediction), you have a fuel delivery problem, not a glow plug or air bubble problem. Then it is simply a matter of checking each component in your system until you find the origin of the failure. Working backwards, in my C30 with the M25, are the following components: 1. Short fuel line from secondary filter to the Bosch injector pump. It's kina big to be clogged, but don't assume: blow through it. 2. Secondary fuel filter. Unscrew it: should be pretty full of fuel. If it' not, it' because the injector pump sucked it half dry & it's being starved from farther upstream. 3. Medium length fuel line from the Facet electric lift pump to the secondary filter. Remove both ends & blow through it. 4. The Facet electric lift pump. Disconnect lines, run a supply line from a small container of fuel & a return line back into the same container, then turn on ignition to see if it has a healthy outflow (it has an internal screen that might need to be cleaned by twisting off the cap of the pump & removing the innards). It should run constantly whenever the ignition circuit is closed. If it doesn't, check the wiring or suspect the unit. If it buzzes, but doesn't put out, it's either the screen (not likely) or the pump is shot. 5. The water separator/primary fuel filter. Spin it off, spin off the water trap. Unlikely to be the problem, but if it's old, replace it. 6. The long fuel line from the tank to the lift pump. This one might be full of fuel: hold it high when you diconnect it, and blow backwards toward tank to check for clog. 7. The pick-up tube in the tank (but you did this first, and saved yourself an whole afternoon, remember?). Note: your lift pump may be plumbed before the primary, which is an older factory arrangement. Only after you're certain all components are delivering fuel to the engine should you suspect anything on the engine itself: the likelihood is fuel supply, & it's a cheaper fix, too. Good luck, and come back to tell us how it's going. Jeff
Pres, I just went through this. Take my hand, and follow me. My problem was a choked-off fuel supply caused by a clogged screen at the end of the pick-up tube in the fuel tank. CHECK THIS FIRST by taking off the outgoing fuel line, then taking off the brass fitting on the tank & pulling out the pick-up tube. If the screen is clogged with 24 years of grime, toss the screen & reassemble. You might be good-to-go right there and will have solved your problem in 10 minutes, including putting the cushions back. If it doesn't start after that, something else is interrupting the fuel supply to the injectors. Then it's a matter of either: 1) bleeding the air out of the injector lines as Ross recommends (as easy as bleeding brakes), or 2) finding the supply problem between the tank and the engine. On the 5411 (M25), you will see three metal high-pressure fuel lines coming out of the injector pump on the right side of the engine, curving up, over, and then down to feed each of the three injectors. The tops of the glow plugs stick out from the head at an angle below each of these tubes, and can be identified by the thick wire that supplies current to all three of them. You can test the plugs simply by trying to heat them up for 30 seconds and then feeling the tops that protrude from the head. Be careful: they get very hot. If they don't, suspect the wiring/switch before the plugs themselves. Diesel engines are very simple. Diesel fuel combusts because of heat and pressure (you've got 22:1 compression), so chances are very high it's going to be a fuel supply problem. You're going to start at the injector caps, checking for fuel, and work your way back, component by component, until you identify the problem. Ross' instructions are right: crack a line loose with a wrench where the metal tube attaches to the injector, but don't twist it open. Have someone hit the starter while you slowly open the nut a bit. There should be a squirt from it every time the injector pump sends a pulse of fuel down that line. If it's good, move on to the next one. If there are bubbles, bleed them out, then close the nut. Air could have entered the system when the filter was changed. If so, the cylinder will begin to fire as soon as the air is gone and you tighten the nut down again. Check all three in this manner. AFTER EVERY 30 SECONDS OF STARTER TIME, DRAIN THE MUFFLER, or seawater could back up into your exhaust ports and into the cylinders: nasty expensive. If you loosen each nut but have no fuel flow (which is my prediction), you have a fuel delivery problem, not a glow plug or air bubble problem. Then it is simply a matter of checking each component in your system until you find the origin of the failure. Working backwards, in my C30 with the M25, are the following components: 1. Short fuel line from secondary filter to the Bosch injector pump. It's kina big to be clogged, but don't assume: blow through it. 2. Secondary fuel filter. Unscrew it: should be pretty full of fuel. If it' not, it' because the injector pump sucked it half dry & it's being starved from farther upstream. 3. Medium length fuel line from the Facet electric lift pump to the secondary filter. Remove both ends & blow through it. 4. The Facet electric lift pump. Disconnect lines, run a supply line from a small container of fuel & a return line back into the same container, then turn on ignition to see if it has a healthy outflow (it has an internal screen that might need to be cleaned by twisting off the cap of the pump & removing the innards). It should run constantly whenever the ignition circuit is closed. If it doesn't, check the wiring or suspect the unit. If it buzzes, but doesn't put out, it's either the screen (not likely) or the pump is shot. 5. The water separator/primary fuel filter. Spin it off, spin off the water trap. Unlikely to be the problem, but if it's old, replace it. 6. The long fuel line from the tank to the lift pump. This one might be full of fuel: hold it high when you diconnect it, and blow backwards toward tank to check for clog. 7. The pick-up tube in the tank (but you did this first, and saved yourself an whole afternoon, remember?). Note: your lift pump may be plumbed before the primary, which is an older factory arrangement. Only after you're certain all components are delivering fuel to the engine should you suspect anything on the engine itself: the likelihood is fuel supply, & it's a cheaper fix, too. Good luck, and come back to tell us how it's going. Jeff
I'm an Idiot
It took me six weeks of stalling and fiddling before I found that clogged screen. That post is what I learned in the process (step-by-step, and do the simple stuff first). Just trying to save someone my frustrations.
I learned my wrenching by reading the Volkswagen Idiot Book (anyone remember?), so I tend to describe things that way for the faint-hearted like myself. BTW, you were the one that steered me toward checking/bleeding the injector lines ITFP.
It took me six weeks of stalling and fiddling before I found that clogged screen. That post is what I learned in the process (step-by-step, and do the simple stuff first). Just trying to save someone my frustrations.
I learned my wrenching by reading the Volkswagen Idiot Book (anyone remember?), so I tend to describe things that way for the faint-hearted like myself. BTW, you were the one that steered me toward checking/bleeding the injector lines ITFP.air goes up, brakes are not engines
ok, i've spoken with a few engineer friends and mechanics, and questioned what i thought was common knowledge. apparently its not. now, while it might work on some engines, your step by step procedure will not work on some, if not most. 1)start with the injectors, yeah, first one first, crack em till fuel squirts, then tighten.. ... after cracking all injectors, if the engine doesnt start, then the air is not at the top, and is trapped somewhere else.. 2) start at the bottom and work your way up... if you go backwards, you've introduce a lot of air everywhere in you system .. when you bleed your injector pump, you dont bleed the top screw first, no, you bleed the bottom, air goes up! so start at your primary, make sure you have good fuel there, no bubbles, go to the next bleed screw, and the next one above that, untill once again, you end up at the injectors. and if it doesnt work first time round, give it another shot... hopefully you have an auxillary pump to help you out, or a hand pump. if not, stick an auxillary pump im line right before your primary filter, get one from napa auto parts for like 15 bucks. loosen screw and turn on pump, and repeat till your done.
ok, i've spoken with a few engineer friends and mechanics, and questioned what i thought was common knowledge. apparently its not. now, while it might work on some engines, your step by step procedure will not work on some, if not most. 1)start with the injectors, yeah, first one first, crack em till fuel squirts, then tighten.. ... after cracking all injectors, if the engine doesnt start, then the air is not at the top, and is trapped somewhere else.. 2) start at the bottom and work your way up... if you go backwards, you've introduce a lot of air everywhere in you system .. when you bleed your injector pump, you dont bleed the top screw first, no, you bleed the bottom, air goes up! so start at your primary, make sure you have good fuel there, no bubbles, go to the next bleed screw, and the next one above that, untill once again, you end up at the injectors. and if it doesnt work first time round, give it another shot... hopefully you have an auxillary pump to help you out, or a hand pump. if not, stick an auxillary pump im line right before your primary filter, get one from napa auto parts for like 15 bucks. loosen screw and turn on pump, and repeat till your done.
Drain the Muffler?
"AFTER EVERY 30 SECONDS OF STARTER TIME, DRAIN THE MUFFLER, or seawater could back up into your exhaust ports and into the cylinders" Could you please explain this a bit more? What causes the seawater to back up, and how do you drain it? TIA
"AFTER EVERY 30 SECONDS OF STARTER TIME, DRAIN THE MUFFLER, or seawater could back up into your exhaust ports and into the cylinders" Could you please explain this a bit more? What causes the seawater to back up, and how do you drain it? TIA
Allen
When you crank the engine the raw water pump circulates water through the engine into the water lift muffler. Since there is no exhaust pressure to push the water out of the muffler the water builds up and can overflow back up through the exhaust into the engine. If your muffler doesn't have a drain plug you can disconnect the hose.
When you crank the engine the raw water pump circulates water through the engine into the water lift muffler. Since there is no exhaust pressure to push the water out of the muffler the water builds up and can overflow back up through the exhaust into the engine. If your muffler doesn't have a drain plug you can disconnect the hose.
Back to glow plugs
On the glow plug topic I offer this: 1. The M25 is an indirect injection engine, and as such, is unlikely to start when cold without hot glow plugs. Mine is in excellent condition, and despite many, many attempts in sumer weather, has never started from cold without heaters. It starts within a couple of hours of running without heaters. 2. The original wiring in Catalinas (C36's, anyway) is very poorly designed and installed. It had the glow plug current passing through a crummy connector and about 30' of too-skinny wire before getting to the plugs. The result is low voltage at the plugs, which required a much longer than expected glow plug powering before the engine will start. I rewired mine as per the articles on the C34 web site with a Ford starter relay feeding the plugs directly. Now I get a full 20 Amps through the plugs, and it fires right up after 10 seconds of heat, as opposed to a reluctant start after 30 plus seconds of heat. 3. If the glow plug switch gets stuck on, the plugs will burn out and must be replaced. They will all go. Take one out, note the NGK part number and get new ones from clubplug.net for less than $8., versus $65 from Universal. Carry a spare set. Other than bad, burnt-out glow plugs, nothing else has ever prevented my engien from starting (knock wood). It's hard to imagine a completely dead engine due to a fule or injector problem, unless it simply hasn't started since storage. Mine has never needed bleeding after storage. I always run and bleed after a filter change, since it WILL start even though some air has entered the system, and fix itself, or it will at least run enough so that the bleedign can be done with the engine running, instead of hot-wiring the lift pump of using hte starter to get high pressure. Poor injectors will run with symptoms - smoke/unburnt fuel in hte exhaust. Don't be confused by steam. Steam will rise and dissipate, oil smoke (fuel) will fall to the water. If you need new or rebuilt injectors, get the Denso numbe roff the injector, search the web and buy new ones for less than the cost or rebuilding: I paid $79. ea. for new, vs. $85 to rebuild locally, vs. $295 from Universal. Install new high pressure rubber hoses and clamps. If it cranks and has oil in hte exhaust, it will fire if you can get it hot enough.
On the glow plug topic I offer this: 1. The M25 is an indirect injection engine, and as such, is unlikely to start when cold without hot glow plugs. Mine is in excellent condition, and despite many, many attempts in sumer weather, has never started from cold without heaters. It starts within a couple of hours of running without heaters. 2. The original wiring in Catalinas (C36's, anyway) is very poorly designed and installed. It had the glow plug current passing through a crummy connector and about 30' of too-skinny wire before getting to the plugs. The result is low voltage at the plugs, which required a much longer than expected glow plug powering before the engine will start. I rewired mine as per the articles on the C34 web site with a Ford starter relay feeding the plugs directly. Now I get a full 20 Amps through the plugs, and it fires right up after 10 seconds of heat, as opposed to a reluctant start after 30 plus seconds of heat. 3. If the glow plug switch gets stuck on, the plugs will burn out and must be replaced. They will all go. Take one out, note the NGK part number and get new ones from clubplug.net for less than $8., versus $65 from Universal. Carry a spare set. Other than bad, burnt-out glow plugs, nothing else has ever prevented my engien from starting (knock wood). It's hard to imagine a completely dead engine due to a fule or injector problem, unless it simply hasn't started since storage. Mine has never needed bleeding after storage. I always run and bleed after a filter change, since it WILL start even though some air has entered the system, and fix itself, or it will at least run enough so that the bleedign can be done with the engine running, instead of hot-wiring the lift pump of using hte starter to get high pressure. Poor injectors will run with symptoms - smoke/unburnt fuel in hte exhaust. Don't be confused by steam. Steam will rise and dissipate, oil smoke (fuel) will fall to the water. If you need new or rebuilt injectors, get the Denso numbe roff the injector, search the web and buy new ones for less than the cost or rebuilding: I paid $79. ea. for new, vs. $85 to rebuild locally, vs. $295 from Universal. Install new high pressure rubber hoses and clamps. If it cranks and has oil in hte exhaust, it will fire if you can get it hot enough.
I had a problem with my Universal
I changed the fuel filter and drained the strainer. The motor started and warmed . I cast off from the dock and 60 seconds out of the slip I died. Thinking I was out of fuel, fortunatly I was near the rigging dock so I caosted there and did some investigation. I didn't get ALL the air out of the system.Follow the book and it works. If you need help go to TorresenMarine.com There you can not only get the book for your motor but look at it on line.Good luck. Most times it's the simplest of solutions. Keep us informed. Keep it up, Ctskip
I changed the fuel filter and drained the strainer. The motor started and warmed . I cast off from the dock and 60 seconds out of the slip I died. Thinking I was out of fuel, fortunatly I was near the rigging dock so I caosted there and did some investigation. I didn't get ALL the air out of the system.Follow the book and it works. If you need help go to TorresenMarine.com There you can not only get the book for your motor but look at it on line.Good luck. Most times it's the simplest of solutions. Keep us informed. Keep it up, Ctskip
- Status