GFCI outlets, Engine blower switch, and CO detector

[ToddS]

My (new) insurance company is insisting on a few changes to things on the boat... some reasonable... some ridiculous. The good news is that the ridiculous ones are easy enough and inexpensive enough to change that I'm willing to just keep them happy and give in. I have questions about a couple of their requests.

• Adding a GFCI outlet in the galley. I keep my boat at a mooring and literally use AC power zero-times-per-year... and I have no inverter either, but I get that safety is important, and they can't trust that I won't suddenly change my habits. Fine. My 2004 Beneteau 373 has AC outlets that are "single" outlets like this:
  
  and I'm pretty sure I won't find a GFCI outlet that fits where these are. I'm considering adding a GFCI outlet somewhere fairly hidden, which I'll never use... but will comply with their request...like in the back of a locker somewhere OR wondering if anyone has experience with a device that adds GFCI to a circuit but does not actually function as an outlet/receptacle... essentially just the switch part of a GFCI outlet.
• Secondly, the surveyor when I bought the boat noted that the engine compartment blower is switched at the ignition, and can't be turned off when the ignition key is engaged. Seems fine/smart to me... but the surveyor apparently wanted to be able to turn off the fan with a separate switch. I tried convincing the insurance company that this was by design, and a good thing... but they weren't having it. Am I crazy to just install a switch in the blower fan's power supply wire, somewhere out of the way (on a bulkhead in the engine compartment likely) and just clearly label it: ("Blower Fan - LEAVE ON always!!!")?
• Marine CO detector - anyone have first-hand experience with a specific one they really like, or really dislike? I'd rather not wake up occasionally at 3:00am to a false positive because of corrosion on something that's not intended for marine use, but I'd also like to not wake up dead because I'm underprotected. There's no sleeping aboard while the engine is running (and no heater, generator, etc.) so I'm not at HIGH risk for trouble here... but I do get that it ought to be there, and I'd like to do it right if I'm going to do it.

They want these things "remedied" before the boat splashes this spring/summer... and a few other things too, but I don't think I need advice on any of the others. Thanks.

 

[dlochner]

Blue Sea used to make a GFCI that mounted in AC panel and protected all the down stream circuits. It looks like they are no longer available, but you might find one somewhere. If you add GFCI receptacle, don't put it in someplace where it is difficult to access. The GFCI needs to be exercised to make sure the contacts release when needed. And when the GFCI trips, which it will, it will be easier to find and reset.

Actually, I see no reason on a diesel to have the blower running when the engine is running or anytime, unless the engine compartment is so well sealed that it needs air forced into for the engine to run. Being able to shut the blower off will make the boat a little quieter when motoring.

I think there are only one or two approved marine CO detectors, Xintex and Fireboy (?). Household CO detectors are more likely to give false alerts.

 

[Richard19068]

Can't see the size or actual shape of the back of your outlet but might this fit, or be made to fit :Tamper Resitant Self Contained Sillites Outlet - BatteryJunction.com

Just curious but might your surveyor actually be concerned with not being able to switch on the blower without the engine being on. That would be a problem in the gasoline world. On the other hand it seems like it would be relatively easy to add a switch somewhere in line on the wiring to the blower so I agree that you are not crazy to do that.

A marine CO detector is the way to go and should be easy to find.

 

[SG]

On the question of the blower:

I think the surveyor meant: The conventional approach, one wants to turn the engine blower on BEFORE start the engine (and evacuate the compartment of possible explosive gases). I thought that was an ABYC standard requirement, irrespective of whether you have gas vs. diesel power.

There are other reasons to use a blower (which essentially brings fresh air into the engine compartment, also). Among them is if you want to cool down the area so it's easier to work in.

Anyway, it should have NEVER been wired that way. Someone thought that they would be saving electricity if you didn't have the engine on, and you were drawing down the battery? Or someone thought that the compartment didn't have adequate ventilation and it would get too hot? [If you have your batteries in there, or a charger, or something else that is heat sensitive, that might be something someone "thought" about. Of course, if they were thinking, they wouldn't put the stuff in there that couldn't take the heat.]

On the CO detectors: I've had them on my current and prior boats (total of 32 years). The only time I've had them go off -- except when they do self test at start-up -- is when we had a bad lead acid battery on the first boat. It wasn't CO, but it set it off when the sulfur dioxide and other out-gassing occurred. Of course the rotten egg smell that was around only added insult to injury. :^))). We've use marine grade units by Xintex. I've had them on 12v breakers.
If you're going to use a 9volt battery model, I don't know why a marine grade model would be a big deal. A lot of people would say if you have a propane or diesel heater, or maybe an on-demand hot water unit, or something similar, it's really not necessary on a diesel powered boat. I heard a story of a sailboat tied-up while surround by a number of large power yachts that had it's crew killed on a very still night from CO. I don't know if the true, or not.

 

[Mechone]

On my boat and other beneteaus I've been on ,I turn the key blower starts, I turn the key a little more glowplugs turn on,turn more starter engages ,let go of key blower stays on while engine is running . Pull fuel stop, engine stops blower is still on until I turn key off . I believe this meets ABYC as any fumes are evacuated before engine starts.

 

[JohnShannon]

Does a diesel need a blower?

 

[SG]

It’s ABYC standard. The term ‘need’ is subject to dispute. But the fact that it’s the standard may make that the ‘need’ that should be satisfied.


(Note this post was corrected below. The post is apparently not correct. -- SG)

 

[dlochner]

It’s ABYC standard. The term ‘need’ is subject to dispute. But the fact that it’s the standard may make that the ‘need’ that should be satisfied.

No, this is not accurate. USCG Rules, which supersede ABYC standards (although USCG rules may incorporate ABYC standards) only require powered engine room ventilation for gasoline powered engine rooms.

https://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/assets/builders-handbook/VENTILATION.pdf

Diesel engines suck a lot of air and do need adequate ventilation, but it need not be powered ventilation. There are reasons for a blower in the engine room of a diesel powered boat, like, bringing fresh air in while someone is changing a fuel filter or performing other work in the engine compartment, but this does not appear to be either an ABYC Standard or USCG rule.

Marine CO detector - anyone have first-hand experience with a specific one they really like, or really dislike?

Practical Sailor has been following this. The most recent update was in November 2019. From a quick look at the article, household units are designed to be stuck on a wall or ceiling in a house that does not move. When placed on a boat, the movement of the boat may cause the unit to fail. Household units may have lower threshold levels for the alarm and may be triggered by chemicals other than CO. Marine units are more rugged and have a higher threshold limits, thus eliminating nuisance alarms.

This article may be for subscribers only.

CO Detectors - Practical Sailor

Since 1974, Practical Sailor’s independent testing has taken the guesswork out of boat and gear buying.

www.practical-sailor.com

 

[Ron20324]

Remember, you can place a GFCI anywhere on the AC path as long as all the others are downstream from it. Like, you'd want the first outlet from the breaker panel to be GFCI then all the others run from it. It's a long story. I can't help but wonder if that stove outlet isn't already protected by a GFCI elsewhere or in the breaker panel? My 2006 B323 has duplex outlets, but I think they went to the singles in 07 or when they made it the model 3i? Maybe the B parts site has the single with GFCI in it? I added an outlet in the salon table to plug the coffee pot into. I always though it dumb to put an outlet in the cabinet, where you'd have to run the pot's power cord over top of the stove.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

My boat never had a blower and I have never thought to add one.

 

[ToddS]

Thanks for all the responses:
@dlochner : I'll make sure it is somewhere "accessible"... but remember, I NEVER use A.C. outlets, as I'm on a mooring, and have no inverter... but yes, out of consideration for some future hypothetical user, I'll make sure it is somewhere reachable. I'll check out Xintrex and fireboy both... the more I read the more I think the main difference will not be BETWEEN marine detectors, but between marine units, and household units. Interesting about the "motion" of a boat impacting CO detector performance, I would not have thought of that... I assumed it was just 12v vs 9v, and maybe some corrosion resistance.

@Richard19068 and @SG : Maybe I didn't explain perfectly... My fan is currently wired the way @Mechone describes, (except I don't have glow plugs)... which does meet ABYC and USCG standards, but for whatever reason the surveyor didn't like that you needed to turn the ignition key (NOT starting the engine mind you) to turn the blower on, and even more strangely, he seemed to not like that you couldn't turn the blower OFF while the engine was running. In my mind, I think he just didn't like that he was "listening for something" in the engine compartment, and wanted to eliminate the extra noise. Anyhow, this is how Beneteau wires boats from the factory, so I'm not sure why I have to override what is a fairly standard feature... but again, for a few bucks, I think I'm going to stop fighting them on it and wire in a well-labelled kill switch for the fan (which will just always be on).

@SG :Batteries, Charger, and Alternator are all in there... from the factory... and while I could theoretically, move some of those things elsewhere with major efforts, I certainly can't move the alternator outside the engine compartment... and a cool alternator is a happy alternator... and besides... what benefits from NOT having the fan blowing in there?

@Richard19068 : The outlet you linked to is not a GFCI outlet... but yes, a single like that is what I'd ideally find... I suspect it doesn't exist though.

@Ron20324 : Yes, I plan to put it/something as far "upstream" in the receptacle circuit as possible... My stove is propane... so no "stove outlet"... plus I'd imagine that would be in a separate circuit even if there were an outlet there. I'll find somewhere to put it... can't find any GFCI "singles" I could just swap out mine for... and I just hate to hack a big hole in a cabinet/bulkhead to add a duplex outlet I'll never use... but I'll figure out somewhere accessible, but not unsightly...

Thanks all!

 

[Afrakes]

Nothing like an independently switched blower to cool down the diesel engine compartment, after returning to the slip, on a hot summer's day. Not too difficult to understand either.

 

[Maine Sail]

#1 Do not challenge anything your insurer asks unless you want to be dropped. We had a customer do this about 8 years ago and when he finally found a new company to insure his boat the increase in annual premium was 10X what the fix would have cost him. He was just being a stubborn old coot and he has paid the price big-time..

#2 The only way to challenge this is at the surveyor level. Many surveyors simply make up their own version of the standards and their made up standards often have zero basis in when compared to the actual standards..

I would strongly urge you to have your surveyor physically cite where in ABYC H-32 it says a powered bilge blower is even required for a diesel sail boat, or where ABYC H-32 says how it is to be wired. Passive ventilation, meaning no bilge blower at all, can meet ABYC H-32 and you may not even need a mechanical blower if the engine compartment can meet the temp specifications in H-32 by using passive ventilation. Bilge blowers are excellent for keeping engine bays cool but they are not a requirement for a diesel sailboat if it can meet the temp specification via passive ventilation.

You can join the ABYC as a DIY boater for peanuts compared to what the certified professional pays per year. This will give you full access to every standard so you can prevent surveyors from making stuff up.

#3 A standard GFCI, & I would suggest hospital or industrial grade with nickel plated wipes, can be installed close to the AC panel and the rest of the vessel outlets can be on the "load" side of the GF circuit. This gives GF protection to all your outlets, if there is only one circuit.

 

[SEMPERAVANTI41]

Hunter factory wired blower with on/off switch on 2007 41DS and wired with blower always on with engine on 2011 50.

 

[Mechone]

Nothing like an independently switched blower to cool down the diesel engine compartment, after returning to the slip, on a hot summer's day. Not too difficult to understand either.

I just leave the key on,same thing

 

[SG]

Aren't some other things are hooked-up to that circuit when the key is turned from the "OFF" position? e.g., a fuel pump and supplemental regulators..

 

[FastOlson]

I installed a CO detector in the late 90's, as request by our surveyor, citing new insurer requirements at the time. Gets replaced about every 5 years, per the sensor end-of-life instructions/warning. (It's been tested once when exhaust from a neighbor boat's diesel heater drifted in. Worked fine- loud & obnoxious alarm.)
I hard wired it into the panel "lighting" circuit, since that circuit is energized any time we are aboard.

Our boat was built with a GFI outlet that protects all of the downstream outlets. I replaced the original one a few years ago when it started tripping without reason. This AC wiring device was standard practice for Ericson in the late 80's. For some reason I have assumed that all "newer" boats would have this.

Our exhaust blower is 'on' when the engine is running. The blower helps remove excess heat from the claustrophobic little engine compartment and this in turn helps extend the life of the alternator. As stated by others, this is not "required" for our diesel.

So, Keep cool and Stay safe.

 

[Mechone]

Aren't some other things are hooked-up to that circuit when the key is turned from the "OFF" position? e.g., a fuel pump and supplemental regulators..

Nope not on my boat , pump is mechanical , first turn of key is blower , idiot light for oil pressure (no buzzer) only second turn under spring load is glowplug engagement then starter this as per schematic

 

[Ron20324]

ABout the GFCI... I had a friend who was selling her house and at the last minute before open house, it was noted the bathroom drain stopper did not work. I pulled up and out the activating rod behine the spigot, then removed the actual drain stopper. No stopper, they could not complan it did not work. I said if anyone complains, get a rubber stopper. Same with GFCI. If the outlet is not there, it can not need a GFCI. Problem solved. Wink.