GFCI outlet

[All U Get]

Hi all,

I was on the boat going over the list of repairs needed and had picked up a GFCI outlet for the aft head. The outlet had served us for 6 years and for some reason tripped last fall and wouldn't reset. I bought a Marunco identical to the old one so I thought it was going to be an easy swap.

First I decided to check for voltage and there was none. Then I pulled out the outlet and checked the wires for voltage, none. Next was the outlet in the aft cabin on the same side as the head, no voltage. So the next logical was to my wife's side of the cabin and the outlet worked, its a GFCI. So I tapped the reset thinking it could reset the current to the other two outlets, nothing doing. I pulled it out and both wires had current to and from the outlet.

Still thinking it was only one circuit I began the search for more outlets. Sure enough on each side of the headboard for the bed and behind the books on the shelf were two more outlets, one to a side. On my wife's side there was a GFCI that was tripped so I did a reset. It now had power and the one on my side of the headboard now had power. OK, now push all the books back into place and move to the outlet near the head that I had tried earlier. It now had power. I'm thinking great, now they all worked except the one in the head.

I checked the reset and it didn't work, but now the wires leading in to the back were hot. So I'm thinking bad GFCI just need to swap it out like I planned an hour or so ago. Three wires, hot neutral and ground, just like the old one. Put it all back together and the little green LED in the corner of the outlet is on. However the outlet didn't work nor would it reset. Dang, scratch my butt and call me lucky. I went through the whole process in my mind and still can't figure out what I'm missing.

Worked before that way, now doesn't. I tried scratching other body parts but didn't come up with anything. Any thoughts, I got a week before we go back aboard.

 

[Ron20324]

If you are saying each outlet is a GFCI, I don't believe the outlet from one protection should feed the next, and so on. It's like old XMAS lights where one goes out, they all do. The feed to the second should come off the pass-through lugs, not the protected lugs. My nephew's beach place was wired the same as yours. I suggested he refer this to a local licensed electrician as maybe it was state/county code yo be wired that way.

 

[Ken Cross]

If the outlet has power and the wires aren't swapped, It only leaves the GFCI. You could install a standard outlet and see if it can carry a load. Also If it's daisy chained from another GFCI a standard outlet should be fine. It's easy enough to check. Trip the upstream outlet and power should be gone.

I use one of these gadgets. They work great.
https://www.amazon.com/Bastex-Teste...r=8-2-spons&keywords=gfci+outlet+tester&psc=1

Ken

 

[Calif. Ted]

If a GFI outlet is the first in a circuit it acts to protect the whole circuit, I think multiple GFI's are interfering with your diagnostic techniques. You can make a circuit GFI protected 2 ways, a GFI breaker (expensive) or a GFI outlet (cheap) as first in circuit.

 

[All U Get]

I believe having a regular outlet would work, but why did the previous GFCI work for years and now it doesn't. There may also be a code to have the GFCI in the head.

 

[Ken Cross]

I believe having a regular outlet would work, but why did the previous GFCI work for years and now it doesn't. There may also be a code to have the GFCI in the head.

If the head power comes through another GFCI it is already protected. There is no advantage to having more GFCIs in series. In fact, it's problematic because if one trips you now have to check multiple places to find which one to reset.

Why the previous unit failed is a good question. I suspect internal corrosion, but without a good tear down and microscope inspection, you won't likely know. Most people would just replace it and move on.
Ken

 

[Rick486]

Hi all,

I was on the boat going over the list of repairs needed and had picked up a GFCI outlet for the aft head. The outlet had served us for 6 years and for some reason tripped last fall and wouldn't reset. I bought a Marunco identical to the old one so I thought it was going to be an easy swap.

First I decided to check for voltage and there was none. Then I pulled out the outlet and checked the wires for voltage, none. Next was the outlet in the aft cabin on the same side as the head, no voltage. So the next logical was to my wife's side of the cabin and the outlet worked, its a GFCI. So I tapped the reset thinking it could reset the current to the other two outlets, nothing doing. I pulled it out and both wires had current to and from the outlet.

Still thinking it was only one circuit I began the search for more outlets. Sure enough on each side of the headboard for the bed and behind the books on the shelf were two more outlets, one to a side. On my wife's side there was a GFCI that was tripped so I did a reset. It now had power and the one on my side of the headboard now had power. OK, now push all the books back into place and move to the outlet near the head that I had tried earlier. It now had power. I'm thinking great, now they all worked except the one in the head.

I checked the reset and it didn't work, but now the wires leading in to the back were hot. So I'm thinking bad GFCI just need to swap it out like I planned an hour or so ago. Three wires, hot neutral and ground, just like the old one. Put it all back together and the little green LED in the corner of the outlet is on. However the outlet didn't work nor would it reset. Dang, scratch my butt and call me lucky. I went through the whole process in my mind and still can't figure out what I'm missing.

Worked before that way, now doesn't. I tried scratching other body parts but didn't come up with anything. Any thoughts, I got a week before we go back aboard.

It terrifies me when electricity behaves in a way I don't understand !!!Brrr....

 

[Benny17441]

Looks like the PO may have done some iffy electrical work. A GFCI outlet fixture is only necessary and recommended for the first outlet position in each separate circuit. Being in the first position will protect all the secondary outlets in that circuit. Stringing multiple GFCI outlets in a single circuit will only bring problems. Also GFCI must be properly positioned to the existing wiring as if the wires are inverted the unit will fail to reset. Check your boat's wiring diagrams and identify your circuits, there should not be anymore than 2 or 3 but on a 530 who knows.

 

[Chris Patterson]

If the white and black wires are in the wrong place, it will not work.

GFCI’s will simply fail sometimes as well..

 

[All U Get]

Looks like the PO may have done some iffy electrical work. Also GFCI must be properly positioned to the existing wiring as if the wires are inverted the unit will fail to reset. Check your boat's wiring diagrams and identify your circuits, there should not be anymore than 2 or 3 but on a 530 who knows.

The PO was an electrical engineer but I found other evidence that he may have had begun to fail slightly with age. Two circuits for the galley, three more divided to the forward cabin, salon/nav. station, and aft cabin. I'll follow up when I get back aboard. One question I always have is the orientation of the outlet. I like seeing the ground on a three prong outlet on the bottom. On my boat they are on top [upside down for me] but does it really matter. They didn't leave much wire inside the box so I don't know if I could flip it.

Would the ground wire have any influence on how this works. Since the green appears to go to the bonding somewhere, would that keep it from resetting if that wasn't secure. But then why would four other outlets work.

 

[All U Get]

If the white and black wires are in the wrong place, it will not work.

GFCI’s will simply fail sometimes as well..

But the new one should work. I'll check which wire leads to which side when I get back.

 

[All U Get]

It terrifies me when electricity behaves in a way I don't understand !!!Brrr....

If you have a wife like mine, you get over that fear after the third or fourth shock.

 

[NotCook]

Looking forward to hearing what you find out.

 

[Benny17441]

The PO was an electrical engineer but I found other evidence that he may have had begun to fail slightly with age.

That is a job for an electrician, a good one has the practical knowledge and follows code that engineers may never see in their respective jobs. The work done on that boat was amateurish. By the way, another characteristic of GFCI outlets is that they can be easily damaged if they were initially installed wrong. Don't worry about why one does not work, just eliminate all but the first on each circuit.

 

[Ron20324]

If you have a wife like mine, you get over that fear after the third or fourth shock.

Oooo... I'm tellin'.

 

[MS LITA]

1991 Hunter 42’ Passage bought 8 months ago its good to pull all receptacles never know what you might find don’t feel bad I looked for GFCI for 1/2 day hidden lower book shelf starboard side after pulling bathroom units

 

[bletso]

Me thinks perhaps you have sprung a leak?!! The leak may be harder to find/repair than the receptacle and box. Good luck

 

[uncledom]

It's true you only need one properly wired GFCI at the beginning of the circuit to protect the whole circuit from a ground fault. A GFCI does not need a ground wire to work. It is called a ground fault interrupter because it is assumed that if the balance between hot and neutral is off balance the current is leaking to ground and possibly through a human so it trips. If there are more than one in a circuit they will not affect the operation of the other but the one with the highest sensitivity, which you can not set, will trip first. Newer GFCIs have a small lock emblem on the face some where to show that if the circuit fails to be able to sense an imbalance it will trip open and not reset. If you have a GFCI outlet any where, home, boat, what ever, you should change it to a newer model as the old ones can fail and just not act as a GFCI any longer.
@All U Get if there is power coming into the GFCI and it will not reset it could be bad right out of the box. Check it properly with a meter. Power to Neutral = 120v, Power to Ground = 120v, Neutral to Ground = 0v. Make sure your wires are landed on the LINE side and not the LOAD side. If you have any questions you can PM me.

 

[Ken Cross]

The PO was an electrical engineer but I found other evidence that he may have had begun to fail slightly with age. Two circuits for the galley, three more divided to the forward cabin, salon/nav. station, and aft cabin. I'll follow up when I get back aboard. One question I always have is the orientation of the outlet. I like seeing the ground on a three prong outlet on the bottom. On my boat they are on top [upside down for me] but does it really matter. They didn't leave much wire inside the box so I don't know if I could flip it.

Would the ground wire have any influence on how this works. Since the green appears to go to the bonding somewhere, would that keep it from resetting if that wasn't secure. But then why would four other outlets work.

It should work without the ground wire as long as the return wire is in place, but the ground wire is also a safety device.

There have also been cases where the small current from a GFCI operating in series with another causes the upstream GFCI to trip. This is another reason to only use one GFCI in a branch circuit.
Ken

 

[Benny17441]

A GFCI does not need a ground wire to work. It is called a ground fault interrupter because it is assumed that if the balance between hot and neutral is off balance the current is leaking to ground and possibly through a human so it trips. .

I for one have always questioned myself about the effectiveness of GFCI breakers in boats. The sole in boats does not make for a good connector to ground. The shore power ground wiring provides a more effective path of lesser resistance. I have had so many boats with OEM wiring that did not include GFCI breakers and never had a problem even though we have had some questionable appliances. I have never heard of a single actual case where a person was electrocuted by a leak of electrical current aboard a non metal boat and deck. Not disputing that it would not hurt to install GFCIs but just wondering if their protection is real. Obviously if your wiring does not include ground wires a GFCI could be helpful. Another situation to consider might be the use of non grounded generators aboard but have not heard of any cases either.