Genoa trim while on a broad reach.

geehaw · Mar 31, 2013

If on a broad reach your sails are more like a kite then a sail. I have found that I have to use a whisker pole to get the genoa to not bubble out in front of the fore-stay. And this does gain me some speed. I have never been able to get all my tell-tails to stream on a broad reach. But my sailing experience is very limited so when others pipe in don't be surprised if this answer is way off. Greg

Stu Jackson · Mar 31, 2013

1. A 110 jib is NOT a genoa, it is a working jib.

2. You should not use the telltales when on a broad reach as much as you do when going upwind. As noted by geehaw, once the wind is aft of the beam, the sail is being pushed by the wind. What most folks do is overtrim when on that point of sail and the boat, in a gust, will try to head up. Trim the sail so it just starts to break at the head, then tighten up a tad more. (MY "big" headsail is a 110, and has been on our three boats for the past 30 years. We sail with a summer smaller headsail since it gets windy here that time of year - use an 85).

JoyRide28 · Mar 31, 2013

First rule of Sail Trim: When in doubt, let it out. Second rule: Let is out until it luffs, then gently trim in until luffing stops.

Also, on a Broad Reach head sail will fill fully, however if you turn down just a little more then the head sail will be shadowed by the main. Now you're on a run...

Joe · Mar 31, 2013

Tell tales don't work as well when sailing off the wind as they do upwind... but even on a broad reach, your sails should be still functioning as a foil rather than a parachute.... that's because the apparent wind will still be far enough forward to trim the sail...

On a broad reach the true wind direction will be aft of 90 deg.... between 110 and 140 say.... but your boat speed will push the apparent wind forward... and you trim your sails to apparent wind... so the goal is to keep the indicator on 90 deg. if the boat slows down and the indicator drifts backward.... head the boat up until apparent comes forward again...then you can steer back down to your original course....

Oh....but your question was how to trim... the old axiom is best when sailing down wind.... "when in doubt, let it out." Ease the sail out til it luffs then trim it in to stop the luffing.... the tell tales are less important... so once you have your 90 degree apparent trim.... steer with the wind indicator. You'll be heading up and bearing off in a serpentine like course.... but your vmg will remain pretty constant.

Jackdaw · Apr 1, 2013

Reaching?

Are you looking at the location of your lead? Can you move it OUTWARD, with a twing? Also look at moving your genoa sheet lead farther AFT in a breeze, maybe forward if its light. On most boats the track is set up for on the wind sailing, and you have to be creative with lead positioning when reaching. As Joe notes, headsails are always more efficient when flown as sails, not spinnakers, so keep correct flow over them.

When we reach with our 110, we use a dedicated reaching sheet that has an outboard attach point that is slightly farther aft. Give MUCH better sail shape. In this pic the 17 knots of breeze is at 95 true, the boatspeed pushes the apparent forward.

You are connect in nomenclature; on most boats, a 110% headsail IS a genoa, as the clew will overlap the mast.

Stu Jackson · Apr 1, 2013

twistedline said:
Stu: I am happy to be educated but I thought a genoa was anything larger than the foretriangle? Is a working jib not 100%?

Pat Royce defines a working jib as "100% working jib has a sail area of 1/2 I * J" so you are correct that a 110 is slightly larger. I have simply always called a 110 a working jib, as have many boatbuilders. Maybe I've been wrong all these years!

Close enough for folk music?

Joe · Apr 1, 2013

Stu Jackson said:
Pat Royce defines a working jib as "100% working jib has a sail area of 1/2 I * J" so you are correct that a 110 is slightly larger. I have simply always called a 110 a working jib, as have many boatbuilders. Maybe I've been wrong all these years! Close enough for folk music?

On my boat I have a blade, lapper and a genoa.... how would you explain that? The sizes/weight are 110 med, 125 light and 135 med. You can also use number references.... the #1 being your largest headsail, or genoa. The #2 is an intermediate size genoa in that it overlaps but called the lapper or #2 to avoid confusion. The #3 is your working jib... or blade... a flatter, upwind sail... which, on my boat is sized at 110.... So.... for simplicity the smallest upwind headsail is referred to as the jib, and the largest upwind headsail is the genoa.

Stu Jackson · Apr 1, 2013

Genoa definition

I read a bit further down the page:

"The working jib is often used for relaxing afternoon sailing, or for cruising especially if short handed. It is also called a lapper, as it slightly overlaps the mast."

So, there! A 110 IS a working jib, not a genoa.

Jackdaw · Apr 1, 2013

Stu Jackson said:
I read a bit further down the page:

"The working jib is often used for relaxing afternoon sailing, or for cruising especially if short handed. It is also called a lapper, as it slightly overlaps the mast."

So, there! A 110 IS a working jib, not a genoa.

What does 'working' mean, and how does it factor into the definition??

Broad classification of headsails on Marconi-rigged sloops.

If the clew DOES NOT overlap with the mast/main: JIB
If the clew DOES overlap with the mast/main: GENOA

100% LP means by definition the clew is back to the mast. 110%s are almost ALWAYS genoas. There might be names for intermediate sails, but this part is always true.

Stu Jackson · Apr 1, 2013

One man's working jib is a genoa, and another skipper's isn't. Really doesn't matter. Pat Royce's great little book has been a good friend for many years. I'm just quotin' him, don't shoot the messenger. I agree with Joe.

I'll keep calling my 110 my working jib, but since my other jib is only an 85, I call my 110 the BIG one!!!

I once sailed on a friend's identical boat, and he had his 155 up! Oh, my goodness, I thought it was a white spinnaker - it was HUGE.

Jackdaw · Apr 1, 2013

Stu Jackson said:
One man's working jib is a genoa, and another skipper's isn't. Really doesn't matter. Pat Royce's great little book has been a good friend for many years. I'm just quotin' him, don't shoot the messenger. I agree with Joe.

I'll keep calling my 110 my working jib, but since my other jib is only an 85, I call my 110 the BIG one!!!

I once sailed on a friend's identical boat, and he had his 155 up! Oh, my goodness, I thought it was a white spinnaker - it was HUGE.

Works for me!

We go with numbers on our 367.... but even that breaks.

We have a reaching genoa. Its called a jib-top. Go figure.

SailingHarry · Apr 1, 2013

My answer may disagree with some other replies, but here goes.

First, as others have said, you absolutely must move the lead outboard, starting with a close reach. Moving it outboard functions much like letting down the main traveler -- it moves the lead out as the sail goes out. It also keeps the sheet from rubbing on the life lines.

Second, as the sail goes out, the lead must go FORWARD. If you look at the sail off the wind, the top gets all raggy and even wraps around the forestay. You will find, even on a beam reach, that the top always luffs first (your objective is to have the telltales top and bottom, or lacking telltales the sail should luff top and bottom at the same time). Moving the lead forward pulls down more, causing the top to be trimmed tighter and the bottom looser.

LuzSD · Apr 1, 2013

We race with a 155 on our Cat30 and play around with our 135. We crew on a Santana 39 that we use a 155 most of the time, unless we use a the 'tiny' 110. Of course we don't have the conditions you do Stu in SF, so we are usually fairly under control. We call them the big one or the little one. Not very technical I guess.

Joe · Apr 1, 2013

Jackdaw said:
100% LP means by definition the clew is back to the mast. 110%s are almost ALWAYS genoas. There might be names for intermediate sails, but this part is always true.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here.... but than's not what 100%LP means... I know you know this... The LP has nothing to do with the distance to the mast.... it is simply the height of the sail's triangle... a line perpendicular from the base (luff) to the highest point of the triangle (clew)

A 100% LP means the at the luff perpendicular is the same length as the J dimension.... because both LP and J are the height measuements of their respective triangles....and can be used to express relationship between the areas of the two. So a 100% LP means the areas of both sail and foretriangle are the same... but tells you nothing where the clew overlaps the mast. That feature is determined by the shape of the sail.... whether the clew is high or low.... leech and foot length... etc.

On a high cut sail, for instance, where the LP intersects the headstay will place it some distance behing the forward most point of the J.... so it must necessarily overlap the mast if both J and LP are the same...

Draw it out.... you'll see what I mean.... try a few different sail shapes over the same foretriangle. Move the LP up and down the luff....see what happens.

SailingHarry · Apr 1, 2013

I posted complete garbage a second ago, but the system won't let me delete my stupid blathering... So I edited my post to this!

Harry

Jackdaw · Apr 1, 2013

Joe said:
I'm not trying to pick a fight here.... but than's not what 100%LP means... I know you know this... The LP has nothing to do with the distance to the mast.... it is simply the height of the sail's triangle... a line perpendicular from the base (luff) to the highest point of the triangle (clew)

A 100% LP means the at the luff perpendicular is the same length as the J dimension.... because both LP and J are the height measuements of their respective triangles....and can be used to express relationship between the areas of the two. So a 100% LP means the areas of both sail and foretriangle are the same... but tells you nothing where the clew overlaps the mast. That feature is determined by the shape of the sail.... whether the clew is high or low.... leech and foot length... etc.

On a high cut sail, for instance, where the LP intersects the headstay will place it some distance behing the forward most point of the J.... so it must necessarily overlap the mast if both J and LP are the same...

Draw it out.... you'll see what I mean.... try a few different sail shapes over the same foretriangle. Move the LP up and down the luff....see what happens.

I know.... ;^) I have used this drawing here before to explain this...

The green line shows all possible clew locations for (in this case a 90% jib, red as LP) a given sail size. I got lazy. Its why I said it's typically at 110% where (depending on clew location) a headsail almost always becomes a genoa. Here, a high-clewed 90% would be a genoa.

Sandy Stone · Apr 1, 2013

That is a good explanation Joe, but I think that the J dimension is measured parallel to the water, while the LP is measured perpendicular to the headstay. That means a 100% LP headsail will not quite be the same as the foretriangle. Things would be a lot simpler if the LP's of headsails were referenced to the LP of the foretriangle.
In answer to the original post, I completely agree with SailingHarry as far as lead adjustments, and I would add that you really want to ease the sheet out until the leeward telltales stream, and not worry too much about the windward telltales.