Gennaker, Code 0, Code D, What to choose?

Jun 7, 2016
315
Catalina C30 Warwick, RI
So I just started another thread about reducing my 150 genoa to a 135.

I also have questions/want to add a sail to my inventory. To be upfront I have sailed spinnakers as crew on race boats, but I do not know a ton about them especially all the different types.

Growing up we had a sail that my dad called a drifter. I don't know what it actually was but we used it as a light wind "close hauled" sail and for lighter down wind sailing.

I'm looking for a general all purpose light wind sail that can be used at most points of sail. I know I want to have my cake and eat it too, but is there a sail that is a good all around light wind / down wind sail where I can reasonably point but also use when running? We are a cruising family/boat and are not looking for optimum performance. We're more interested in ease of handling and usability than racing.

As a bonus question does anyone have a simple breakdown of the different types of "spinnakers, gennakers, 0's, D's etc." so I can better understand their differences/purposes.
 
Oct 31, 2012
464
Hunter 2008 H25 Lake Wabamun
For my H25, which has a 110% jib, the Code0 works very well for light air and is efficient in reaching. A continuous furler is the perfect companion.
 
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Jul 19, 2013
384
Pearson 31-2 Boston
The drifter was a a light weight headsail with a wire luff used as the upwind headsail - usually the 5th or 6th jib in the inventory of a serious race boat.

I think you want cruising spinnaker good for reachinfg-running. All the code ails are for racers or folks who like collecting sails.
 
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Jun 7, 2016
315
Catalina C30 Warwick, RI
The drifter was a a light weight headsail with a wire luff used as the upwind headsail - usually the 5th or 6th jib in the inventory of a serious race boat.

I think you want cruising spinnaker good for reachinfg-running. All the code ails are for racers or folks who like collecting sails.
Thanks for the info.

So for Narragansett bay the prevailing wind tends to be out of the south. Since the bay is kind of like a rectangle that points north to south, typically we are either beating into the wind or running from it. I know that you'll never get "real" pointing out of a drifter, cruising spin etc... but is there a happy medium I can use for lighter wind pointing and moderate wind reaching/running?
 
Oct 22, 2014
21,102
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
YOU would best be served to discuss your sail desires with a local sail loft.

Asking the team if they can produce a sail that meets your needs.

I bought an Asymmetrical this year. I only was able to try it once, but was impressed with the flexibility of it. I think I was about 70 degrees off the wind on the high end and easily sailed at 165 degrees.
 
Nov 26, 2008
1,966
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
I really like my code 0. Mine has the sacrificial cover on it so I can leave it up all the time ready to go. Will typically point better than an asym. Is heavier, about 2 oz which can be good or bad depending on how light of air you want to sail.
 
Nov 8, 2007
1,527
Hunter 27_75-84 Sandusky Harbor Marina, Ohio
Narragansett Bay is a great memory for the Admiral and me. Our first spinnaker experience was on a Rhodes 19 running north in the bay while I was in Navy OCS at Newport. Then we would strike it and return to the jib for the beat back south.

20 years ago, I talking with my sailmaker about what we needed to cruise on our new (to us) '77 h27. Once he realized I would not return to racing, he recommended an asymmetric spinnaker for any course reaching or running in light to medium winds. (65 to 130 degrees off the wind.) It also works wing on wing for dead downwind if the waves are not too big.

I don't think there is is any sail that will work from close hauled to running. Its a matter of shape. A wing-like sail designed for sailing close hauled needs to be sheeted at an angle close to the relative wind. As we ease off into a reach, our boats are not wide enough to maintain the sail shape. (A pole can add a little more range off the wind.) An asymmetric will not work close hauled, but its more ballooned shape is optimized for reaching, and works well as described direct downwind.

When racing, there is usually crew to make any sail changes needed. When cruising, we can roll up our genny and shift to the asymmetric in about 10 minutes. When it is the right sail, the asymmetric adds around 2 knots to our speed in light airs - conditions where the iron genny is often the only other alternative.

Here we are, near hull speed, wing and wing in Sandusky Bay:
 

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Jun 7, 2016
315
Catalina C30 Warwick, RI
I just wrote a follow up for the Genoa thread I started so I figured I'd follow up on this one too.

I spoke with my sail loft Thurston sails in Bristol RI and they recommended a Cruising Asymmetrical with a dousing sock. He said that being short handed (read as 2 young kids and my wife most of the time) that the cruising asym will be the most useful all around sail and the easiest to handle.

I inquired about putting it on a continuous furler instead of a dousing sock, but he said they are much more expensive and that in his experience he found Asymmetricals do not furl well on continuous furlers but if I really wanted a continuous furler he'd recommend a Code 0 or D instead.
 
Oct 31, 2012
464
Hunter 2008 H25 Lake Wabamun
My Code 0 rolls up well on the continuous furler and obviously all controls lead back to the cockpit. I’m not sure is a sock can be raised and lowered from the cockpit or if one needs to go up front. If sock lines cannot be led aft them single handed sailing in quite difficult if not impossible.
 
Apr 5, 2009
2,814
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
When I replaced the original 150% on my C30, I specified a 135% blade rather than the more conventional 135% that does not go all the way to the mast head. I have been really happy with the performance. I do not think it caused much if any loss of upwind performance. I stay ahead of all of the other C30's I have raced against. Most people do not realize that many times, the smaller size headsails do not use the full hoist so make sure you discuss that issue with your sailmaker to determine what sail is best for you. In really light air, it is easier to keep the 135 full on a reach or run because there is less weight.
I also have a very large Assym for reaching and running. When cruising, I will often just fly the spinnaker by itself when sailing off the wind.
 

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Aug 1, 2011
3,972
Catalina 270 255 Wabamun. Welcome to the marina
Asymmetricals do not furl well on continuous furlers
I would not agree with that sentiment. Having an asym that is fully 25% bigger than anybody would recommend accomplishes a purpose and comes with limitations, but the ability to roll it up -right now- provides a major amount of comfort to a short handed boat.
and, @Sailavie1 's commentary about socks is well founded.
 
Aug 1, 2011
3,972
Catalina 270 255 Wabamun. Welcome to the marina
PS. Watch this video if you want to see a very large sail getting furled, with commentary pertaining to the real issues.
 
Oct 22, 2014
21,102
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
I went the Asymmetrical and Sock route. I solo sail. It is a practical and budget sensitive way of going. It provides good advantage in light to moderate winds.
Looked great when first raised and the wind caught the sail.
18564824-7D20-41AA-B029-BF2C6DE84DFA.jpeg
 
Nov 26, 2008
1,966
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
I would not agree with that sentiment. Having an asym that is fully 25% bigger than anybody would recommend accomplishes a purpose and comes with limitations, but the ability to roll it up -right now- provides a major amount of comfort to a short handed boat.
and, @Sailavie1 's commentary about socks is well founded.
Yeah, saying asyms do not work with continuous line furlers is nonsense. That is what they were made for. Fire that guy!




Full disclosure...I produced both of those videos.
 
Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
Code zeros and asymmetric spinnakers are two very different Sails. One specialized for reaching and higher angles, the other is specialized for reaching and deeper angles. One is specialized for getting upwind in light winds, the other is specialized for getting downwind in light air. Both of them will reach, if designed to do so.

Both are free flying, meaning you don’t attach them to a structural forestay.

First of all, a code zero: is designed to be flown is when the apparent wind is approximately at or above the beam. The area is roughly, very roughly, equivalent to 1.5 times as big as a 155% Genoa, and has a deeper draft for more power compared to a Genoa. It is a very powerful sail that can double your speed through the water in light winds, for example, in 3- 8 nets of true wind.

With a code zero, you can’t sail quite as close to the apparent wind as with a Genoa. you can sail as close as 35 or 40 degrees to the apparent wind, which corresponds to more than 50 degrees to the true wind.

Shapewise, the code zero has an almost straight luff with just a little bit of round, with a very low stretch, very strong flexible line seized in, around which it can be furled (usually). (Genoas have a hollow in the luff luff). The leech is shaped like a skinny spinnaker, with a bump at the shoulder. The draft, as mentioned above is deeper and more powerful than a Genoa. The shape is designed for use in light winds up to about 8-10 kts of true wind, which means it has to be strong enough for use in apparent wind speeds of 15 or higher.

Codes zeros made of cloths that don’t stretch can sail closer to the wind than stretchier ones. That’s why heavy weight spinnaker nylons 1.5 oz and 2.2 oz) are used in the less expensive ones, with 1.5 oz and heavier laminates used in the pricier ones.

Code zeros are almost always used on furlers because they are hoisted while sailing into the wind. (You can’t blanket them in the wind shadows of the mainsail during the hoist, as you can when sailing downwind.). The furler is usually a bottom up furler, with a flexible Anti-torque line between the top swivel and bottom swivel. The furling line is usually a continuous loop, not a single line, because you have need a lot of turns to deploy and furl it, more than a Genoa on a rigid furler.

One last thing about code zeros, if you want to sail really deep angles, you pole them out like a Genoa using a big whiskerpole, you can. But then you’re using the sail in parachute/push mode (drag) , and you’re not generating any lift. You can go faster than the wind by generating lift, but that doesn’t work in push mode.

in Contrast.... asymmetrical spinnakers are designed to be used when the apparent wind angle is on the beam or further aft. They can be used to sail at much deeper angles than a code zero. You can get versions of Asymms that are “all purpose”, or for either reaching or running, either in light air, or for racers usein heavy air. All purpose means it’s a compromise between either reaching high or running deep. An all purpose racing asymm is called an A2; an all purpose asymm for cruiser sees is often called a cruising Chute or gennaker.

The shape of an asymm varies depending on the angles that it’s designed to sail, but in general it look like lopsided spinnakers, with positive curves on both the luff and the leech. The luff has a moderately rounded shape, and the leech has a prominently wide shoulder, like a symmetric spinnaker. The leech is shorther than the luff, and the clew is fairly high, so that it sheets towards the back of the boat. The draft is comparatively very deep, and is closer to the luff than the leech. The total area of the asymm is much, much more than the code zero. It generates a lot of its power from lift rather than drag when it’s trimmed properly to go down wind.

As for what gear to use, remember that a furler for either a code zero or asymmetric has to clear the pulpit in a straight line from the tack at the bow to the top of the mast where the halyard goes. Most traditional pulpits get in the way unless you either a) modify the pulpit by removing the top rail or b) install a bow sprit kit.

So the cheapest free flying sail for a Hunter 420 (for example) with a traditional bow pulpit would be an asymmetric with a snuffer/ sock. You would need to put a block in front of the jib furler for an adjustable tack line, have a spinnaker halyard block on a short crane at the masthead, and install ratchet blocks near the stern for the sheets. You will need winches in front of the sheet blocks.

In summary, here are a couple of generalizations, but remember it depends on the individual hull shape, displacement and rig design of your boat.
  • fractional rigs with small jibs and big mainsails really benefit from having a code zero to work upwind in very light winds.
  • boats that can easily go faster than "hull speed" benefit from Code Zeros more than "lead mines" because the apparent wind shifts forward easily if the boat is easily driven and is "fast"
  • Heavy displacement boats with big genoas typically benefit a lot from having an asymmetric spinnaker because they really are relatively slow at deep angles downwind.

I’m out of time for now. Feel free to ask more questions.
Below:
Here’s a short video of us reaching with an asymm . You’ll notice we have the luff pulled tight, with the tack down as far as it goes to get the luff straight.



Below:
Here’s a short video of us running deep wth the asymm in super light winds outside the Golden Gate Bridge. The tack is eased up t allow the luff the curve, and the sheets are eased to let the luff rotate across the centerline to,windward. That allows us to sail really deep angles.




 
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Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
I'm looking for a general all purpose light wind sail that can be used at most points of sail. I know I want to have my cake and eat it too, but is there a sail that is a good all around light wind / down wind sail where I can reasonably point but also use when running? We are a cruising family/boat and are not looking for optimum performance. We're more interested in ease of handling and usability than racing.
Given that you have a heavy Catalina 30 with a masthead rig and a 135 genoa, an All purpose asymmetric spinnaker will provide the most of what you are looking for. All purpose cruising Asymms are usually optimized for stability (compared to a racing asymm) and ease of trimming/use, and can reach and run. They can be flown when the apparent wind is between approximately on the beam (80-90 degrees) and 40-50 degrees further aft.

Judy B,
Semi-retired Sailmaker
 
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CarlN

.
Jan 4, 2009
603
Ketch 55 Bristol, RI
If you owned a 45' catamaran this would be a different discussion. But for your boat your current sails are fine for upwind (assuming they are in good shape). You need a spinnaker for downwind. For best performance, you want a symmetrical spinnaker with a pole but they are way too much work for cruising. An asymmetrical spinnaker in a snuffer is perfect (no need for a $3000 furler on such a small boat). But while on the topic, how old are your main and genoa? If they have stretched over the years, replacing them with a high quality dacron will make the boat feel entirely different upwind.
 
Jun 7, 2016
315
Catalina C30 Warwick, RI
So this is where I'm a little hesitant to tell everyone the age of the sails due to the automatic scoffing I might get. The sails are older but even the sail maker who made them couldn't believe the truth since they are in such remarkable shape.

They are not stretched at all and even though they're older the PO barely used them before they were put away for several years before I bought the boat. There are no signs of stretching, deterioration, or cracking and the sail loft told me that if he didn't know the age he would have guessed then as being 1 to 2 years old.

I know I'm taking a gamble and I can't validate anything until next summer once I use them, but I am pretty confident the recut should go well.

If it does not, I am a very humble person and will happily eat crow on here so that others can learn from my experience/ mistakes, only as long as you promise not to tell my wife because she won't know the difference anyways
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,422
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
only as long as you promise not to tell my wife because she won't know the difference anyways
My lips are sealed.
Loose lips sink ships. :beer:

If the sailmaker is reasonably competent and cuts the sail correctly then you should be OK. I don't know if the sailmaker explained the process and how the sail would be cut, but it is a bit more complex than just cutting some fabric off the bottom of the sail. Good luck.
 
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