General question about Jib furlers?

Ron20324 · Jun 28, 2009

There's your first problem, Hermit. You don't attach the halyard to the sail. It attaches to the upper shackle of the upper furling drum/swivel. The lower shackle of the furling drum/swivle is what the head of the sail attaches to. You DO have an upper furling drum, DON'T YOU???

Joe · Jun 28, 2009

here's the profurl system.... http://www.profurlamerica.com/us/reefing-furling-systems/classic.htm

Study the pictures... the halyard attaches to the tang on the upper part of the swivel, the sail attaches to the lower part. The foil slides inside the swivel. The swivel mechanism rides up the foil, pulling the sail through the groove until it reaches the full hoist. The upper and lower halves of the swivel act independently. The lower half rotates with the foil. The upper half does not. The foil is encased in a bearing that allow it to rotate while the upper part of the swivel remains static. The Profurl wrapstop is the black disc that is fixed to the stay above the swivel. It catches the halyard tang to stop the upper swivel from rotating. The tang on the Profurl is adjustable for fine tuning as the sail stretches. Furlers with independent halyards work this way... basically.

CDI type furlers do not use independent halyards, rather the sail halyard is built into the foil itself. CDI users rarely, if ever, remove their sails from the furler because it is so inconvenient. Whereas the independent halyard type furlers usually have twin groove foils to allow twin headsails or racing headsail changes, the CDI type can only accommodate one sail and limits the performance oriented sailor.

Manny · Jun 28, 2009

halyard wrap

Hermit,
On my CDI furler, there is a part at top of the luff with a small sheave. The Jib halyard is wire and runs through that sheave back down the other side of the luff through a small groove. It then gets attached at the drum. I can't see any conceivable way for it to wrap. Check out page two of the CDI manual: http://www.sailcdi.com/sailpdf/FF4&6 manual 7_06.pdf
Here's a picture of my mast head where you can see the top of the furler.

Manny

Edited to add: If you look at the picture you can see the small sheave and the wire halyard exiting on the side that the jib would be attached to.

sailingdog · Jun 29, 2009

None of the headsail furlers should ever be in COMPRESSION.

A 150% headsail means that the clew to luff distance is approximately 150% of the "J" measurement of your boat.

higgs · Jun 29, 2009

If halyard wrap is a problem, one can install a halyard restrainer. It happens when the head of the jib does not go high enough. The restrainer is put near the top of the mast to shorten the distance of exposed halyard. If you are getting wrap, even occasionally, you should install one as it will eventually probably cause your halyard to fail.

A fix can sometimes be achieved by adding another shackle at the tack.

Banooma · Jun 29, 2009

Scott, I agree with Ron. You don't really need to climb up the mast to see what's going on. You can simply release the headsail halyard and lower the jib (and upper swiveling furler). You'll gain a better appreciation for how it works than any picture would tell you.

Manny · Jun 29, 2009

Hermit,
I guess the CDI luff has a bit of a compressive load on it depending on how tightly the halyard is pulled but it is very minimal.

Manny

BobM · Jun 29, 2009

Regarding your call for photos...

...right back at you! Send one and I am sure you will have your answer in five minutes (done in jest, as usual of course).

ix:

jibes138 · Jun 29, 2009

Use your binoculars

Binoculars are a wonderful tool to inspect things around the masthead without climbing the mast. Use them to take a look.

150% , if you draw a line perpendicular to the luff (front edge) of your sail and the line passes through the clew (where the sheets are attached) then that measurement is compared to the "J" measurement of the boat as noted by SD.
You noted that it is always extremely windy where you are located. In that case then I highly recommend you do not use a 150% headsail. You will likely be overpowered most of the time and then you will try to sail with a partially rolled up sail that is a disaster for performance. As you roll up the sail, the shape is wrecked, you can't point as high, and the center of effort rises causing more heeling moment and more weather helm. A 150% genoa is for lighter air and while most boats seem to carry them I find that the normal 110% jib that comes with a boat as standard equipment is probably a better all around sail for general purposes. In light air you will want the 150 so you sacrifice performance but in heavy air you will be a lot happier with a smaller sail.

RichH · Jun 29, 2009

Hermit Scott said:
After you attach the halyard to the head of the jib and hoist it and feed the luff into the track, when you try to furl the sail, what keeps the halyard from getting wrapped around the forestay?
I tried looking this up on manufacturer web sites but they are more concerned about the drum and the foil.
What is the mechanism that keeps this from happening?
On the profurl website they say their furlers prevent halyard wrap. I hadn't even thought about it until they said that.
If anyone has a picture that would be cool.

The prevention is using the proper LEAD ANGLE ... the angle that the halyard makes between the mast sheeve and it attachment on the top swivel. A large lead angle will result in a force perpendicular to the axis of rotation of the top swivel, the less the angle the less the force and if the forces is insufficient the halyard will turn WITH the shackle end of the top swivel. The lead angle is listed in each manufacturers specifications. Some manufacturers use a small 'restraint arm' that is attached to the top section of the top swivel ... the arm keeps the halyard shackle portion of the top swivel from rotating.

Royal Flush · Jun 29, 2009

That part is called a Halyard restrainer. Check out my thread a little. Mine is cracked and needs replacing. It's 8-12 inches down from the top and changes the angle of the jib halyard.

Scott T-Bird · Jun 29, 2009

Agreeing with jibes ...

It would be best to use your smaller jib initially. A 150 genny is a pretty big sail, while your smaller one (I think we are guessing that it would be more like the 'standard' 110 that most manufacturers provide) will be perfectly useful even in lighter winds. Besides, since you are not familiar with the furler and it may not be in perfect condition, you will be far better off gaining confidence both in your sailing skills, and in the performance of the furler with a smaller sail rather than the larger one. If you find yourself with very windy conditions and a furler that gets jammed while flying your largest sail, you could be in for a miserable or even dangerous situation.

I would even go as far as to suggest that it is far better to learn and improve your sailing skills with hanked-on head sails, simply for the reason that you know you can drop the sail if you get into a tough situation. Hanking your headsail is definitely more work and many will argue that it is also dangerous to work on a pitching fore deck to raise and drop your sail in rough weather. Of course, if your sails don't have hanks, then the issue is moot because I'm not going to suggest that you re-fit your sails to have hanks installed. But, IMO, you would be better off earning your stripes by working the fore deck to hank your head sails. Then, when you go back to your furler, you will really appreciate the convenience.

Scott T-Bird · Jun 29, 2009

Some basic terminology ...

Years ago, sailers generally referred to their head sails as #1 thru #5. Generally speaking, when sailers hanked the appropriate size sail on and had all those sails in their 'quiver' (rather than furling/reefing to the appropriate size), they would use their 150 and refer to it as #1 for fair weather sailing in breezes generally to about 12 knots or a little more (of course defending upon the boat, the crew and all those other factors). As the wind increases, the size of the sail used would naturally decrease to #2 (about 135), and #3 (about 110). As you get to sails less than 100, generally speaking, the clew would pass in front of the mast without any overlap as it changes sides. In storms, the storm jibs would be employed such as the #4 (maybe around 90) or even the #5, (maybe around 70 or less). Of course, there are all kinds of variations depending upon the sailers preference, but if you were to look at older sail bags, you might notice the labels with the numbering system employed for quick identification during sail changes.

Maine Sail · Jun 29, 2009

On furlers

On furlers by the likes of Schafer, Harken, Pro-Furl, Hood & Furlex there is a top swivel that rides up and down the foil. This swivel usually has multiple sets of bearings inside it. The top shackle of the swivel gets connected to the halyard and the bottom shackle of the swivel gets connected to the head of the genoa or jib. This allows the sail and foil to rotate independently of the halyard.

If you don't have the correct lead angle for the halyard or the sail does not hoist high enough to give you this angle you may need to add a halyard wrap preventer.

jibes138 · Jun 29, 2009

Dangerous Situation

Scott,
We are interpreting your post that you don't have a drum at the top of your sail and that the halyard is attached directly to the sail? If this is correct then it is a very dangerous situation. If your halyard wraps around the headstay and jams you may not be able to either roll up your headsail when you need to nor drop the sail. If your system is lacking the upper drum then it is very easy to use the system but without rolling up the sail. Instead of hanked on sails you just raise the sail each time by feeding it into the luff groove in the roller furler then lowering it at the end of the day of sailing.
Sail age is not that big a factor, what matters is how worn out and sun damaged are the sails. My original 110% jib had never been used, and no evidence that it was ever even hoisted on the boat. I added a sun cover to the sail and now I use it all the time. It was 8 years old when I bought the boat and in brand new condition. Lay out your 110 on the ground on a nice grassy area or maybe in your workshop. Look closely at the stitching, is it still intact or do you see a lot of stitches that look like they are chafed or degraded from UV damage? The sail may need restitching if it was used a lot. If it is just stretched out a little from use it will work just fine for you to get experience. I remember a story of a guy that cruised the east coast making sails from old blue tarps he found in dumpsters. I've been in canoes and used paddles and clothes as sails. So as long as the sail isn't going to rip apart at the seams it will work fine to push you around. Please reply that you have the upper swivel on your roller furling set up.
Oh yeah, did I read your post correctly that you are climbing the mast to remove the headstay. You can not do this. The headstay holds up the mast. Along with the rest of the standing rigging.

Ron20324 · Jun 29, 2009

Why is the swivel at the top of the foil? It should fall down by gravity. Is there another halyard holding it up top?

General question about Jib furlers?

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