On a 27 foot boat is a diesel necessary for a coastal cruiser. Does the extra cost, winter preparation and space requirements on small boat make it worthwhile? Steve; a new sailor
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Personal Opinion
Steve, I think this is a personal decision that is worth getting as much information as posible. I personally have a Cat 27 with a Atomic 4 , but I did alot of research before buying. I generally think sailors are a more safety concious bunch than other boaters and that is why most all new sail boats come with diesel motors. Yes, diesel fuel is safer and the resale on your boat will be higher with a diesel motor, but you will also pay extra for it. I think a gas motor is ok as long as you maintain it properly and follow all precautions. Make sure to run the bilge blower and make sure to follow your nose. If you smell gas don't start it. I smell for gas everytime I get on the boat I also smell the blower exhuast to make sure I don't smell gas. There are alot of power boats with gas motors and the amount of explosions each year are still a relatively small considering the population of gas powered boats. Like I said it is a personal decision. Good Luck!
Steve, I think this is a personal decision that is worth getting as much information as posible. I personally have a Cat 27 with a Atomic 4 , but I did alot of research before buying. I generally think sailors are a more safety concious bunch than other boaters and that is why most all new sail boats come with diesel motors. Yes, diesel fuel is safer and the resale on your boat will be higher with a diesel motor, but you will also pay extra for it. I think a gas motor is ok as long as you maintain it properly and follow all precautions. Make sure to run the bilge blower and make sure to follow your nose. If you smell gas don't start it. I smell for gas everytime I get on the boat I also smell the blower exhuast to make sure I don't smell gas. There are alot of power boats with gas motors and the amount of explosions each year are still a relatively small considering the population of gas powered boats. Like I said it is a personal decision. Good Luck!
The trouble with a boat
is that stuff doesn't just drop on the ground and evaporate when you drive away. It accumulates in the bilge and you take it with you when you drive (or sail) away. Therefore, you want to be sure that any stuff that's going to end up in your bilge either doesn't get the chance (propane), is only messy (engine oil), or is not likely to explode (diesel fuel). True, not that many boats blow up. But sooner or later someone forgets to run the blower or there is a spark and BOOM! Seen a lot of them. Our old Dawson 26 came with a Yanmar YSE-8 one lunger. Our criteria when we bought that boat was no gasoline. Who needs the extra hassle and concern? Never mind that a guest one day filled the tank with gasoline. 'Nother story. A friend bought a Triton with an Atomic 4. He had the engine rebuilt and upgraded. But after too many overflowed carburetors and aborting a trip to Europe for a year, he ripped it out and practically gave it away. He replaced it with a Yanmar and went worry-free to Europe. I don't really think it's all that much of a personal choice these days. Worry-free boating almost dictates diesel. Costs more, but you'll get some of it back when you sell your boat, which will sell much faster and the engine will likely outlast both the boat and you. A diesel just doesn't have a whole raft of things that can go wrong and prevent it from running. Feed it clean fuel, clean air (lots of it) and change the oil and it will run happily forever.
is that stuff doesn't just drop on the ground and evaporate when you drive away. It accumulates in the bilge and you take it with you when you drive (or sail) away. Therefore, you want to be sure that any stuff that's going to end up in your bilge either doesn't get the chance (propane), is only messy (engine oil), or is not likely to explode (diesel fuel). True, not that many boats blow up. But sooner or later someone forgets to run the blower or there is a spark and BOOM! Seen a lot of them. Our old Dawson 26 came with a Yanmar YSE-8 one lunger. Our criteria when we bought that boat was no gasoline. Who needs the extra hassle and concern? Never mind that a guest one day filled the tank with gasoline. 'Nother story. A friend bought a Triton with an Atomic 4. He had the engine rebuilt and upgraded. But after too many overflowed carburetors and aborting a trip to Europe for a year, he ripped it out and practically gave it away. He replaced it with a Yanmar and went worry-free to Europe. I don't really think it's all that much of a personal choice these days. Worry-free boating almost dictates diesel. Costs more, but you'll get some of it back when you sell your boat, which will sell much faster and the engine will likely outlast both the boat and you. A diesel just doesn't have a whole raft of things that can go wrong and prevent it from running. Feed it clean fuel, clean air (lots of it) and change the oil and it will run happily forever.
Clarification
I think Peter meant to write "is not likely to explode (gasoline" rather than diesel. Put another way, gasoline is much more likely to explode or catch fire than diesel. That alone is worth voting for diesel.
I think Peter meant to write "is not likely to explode (gasoline" rather than diesel. Put another way, gasoline is much more likely to explode or catch fire than diesel. That alone is worth voting for diesel.
Not Necessary.
Steve: There are many older boats cruising around with a good gas engines. I believe that you will find that they are not 'in favor' but are very capable. If you find a boat with a good Atomic 4, you will find that this engine generally has more horse power (better performance under power) than the same boat with a diesel. The early diesels tended to be a little under powered. So this gives a slight advantage to the gas engine. You can also work on one of these engines with slightly less mechanical knowledge that a diesel engine too. On the other side of this equation you have a safety factor inherent in a diesel that is NOT available with a gas engine. The engine compartment in a gas engine needs to be vented with blowers to bring in fresh air and exhaust any gas fumes which MAY accumulate in the bilge compartment. These engine may be slightly underpowered. If the price is within $1000-1500 for the same boat with a good diesel vs. the gas, I'd go with the diesel. You will find it easier to sell when you get ready to move up/on. If the price difference is much higher, I'd go with the gas (everything else being equal).
Steve: There are many older boats cruising around with a good gas engines. I believe that you will find that they are not 'in favor' but are very capable. If you find a boat with a good Atomic 4, you will find that this engine generally has more horse power (better performance under power) than the same boat with a diesel. The early diesels tended to be a little under powered. So this gives a slight advantage to the gas engine. You can also work on one of these engines with slightly less mechanical knowledge that a diesel engine too. On the other side of this equation you have a safety factor inherent in a diesel that is NOT available with a gas engine. The engine compartment in a gas engine needs to be vented with blowers to bring in fresh air and exhaust any gas fumes which MAY accumulate in the bilge compartment. These engine may be slightly underpowered. If the price is within $1000-1500 for the same boat with a good diesel vs. the gas, I'd go with the diesel. You will find it easier to sell when you get ready to move up/on. If the price difference is much higher, I'd go with the gas (everything else being equal).
Diesel of course.....
Yes, I've had both and all I remember about the little 4 cyl gas engine was all the headaches with damp ignition, cruddy points, dirty carb. and I need not go on. Diesel: SAFE, Simple, Reliable, Fuel Effecient, Lasts Forever (well almost)
Yes, I've had both and all I remember about the little 4 cyl gas engine was all the headaches with damp ignition, cruddy points, dirty carb. and I need not go on. Diesel: SAFE, Simple, Reliable, Fuel Effecient, Lasts Forever (well almost)
Your Question
I don't think winter prep or space requirments are going to be that much different with Gas vs. Diesel. If you've ever tried to sell a boat you'd know that every little bit helps. Usually when you say atomic-4 people walk. I know I do. Maybe there's no logic behind it, but that's life. On a twenty-seven foot boat I'd go without an engine before I would consider gas. I've never heard of a gas engine being replaced by anything but diesel. Just my opinion.... Ron/KA5HZV
I don't think winter prep or space requirments are going to be that much different with Gas vs. Diesel. If you've ever tried to sell a boat you'd know that every little bit helps. Usually when you say atomic-4 people walk. I know I do. Maybe there's no logic behind it, but that's life. On a twenty-seven foot boat I'd go without an engine before I would consider gas. I've never heard of a gas engine being replaced by anything but diesel. Just my opinion.... Ron/KA5HZV
Gas
I don't know about all this reliability issues with gas. My P-30 vintage 74 runs just fine with its A-4. Its much faster than most boats her size under power. The gas engine is simple, easy to work with and stuff doesn't grow in my fuel. As with anything caution is needed but a $100.00 investment in a vapor detector is good and most new boats carry propane without explosions in every marina. Bill
I don't know about all this reliability issues with gas. My P-30 vintage 74 runs just fine with its A-4. Its much faster than most boats her size under power. The gas engine is simple, easy to work with and stuff doesn't grow in my fuel. As with anything caution is needed but a $100.00 investment in a vapor detector is good and most new boats carry propane without explosions in every marina. Bill
Diesel everytime!
If you can reach do a diesel and you intend to keep the boat any length of time buy diesel. Most charter companies wont allow gas engines into their fleets for reliability reasons. Once you have had your diesel for a little while you will just love it and know you made the right decision.
If you can reach do a diesel and you intend to keep the boat any length of time buy diesel. Most charter companies wont allow gas engines into their fleets for reliability reasons. Once you have had your diesel for a little while you will just love it and know you made the right decision.
Propane/Gas analogy.
The propane is normally kept in a locker that is vented overboard with triple shutoff protection. The gacoline is kept inside the hull with no shutoff protection. 'Nuff said.
The propane is normally kept in a locker that is vented overboard with triple shutoff protection. The gacoline is kept inside the hull with no shutoff protection. 'Nuff said.
D vs G
I found the following site debunks some of the myths in this discussion. www.yachtsurvey.com/GasDiesel.htm
I found the following site debunks some of the myths in this discussion. www.yachtsurvey.com/GasDiesel.htm
The One Advantage of Gas
Although I agree with much of what's been posted favoring diesel, I've had both and the one advantage of an Atomic Four is the ability to hand crank it if the starter fails. The ease of working on the A4 has been addressed and that fact has provided me with some great tales over the years. Another irritant of the diesel is the God-awful exhaust smell when powering down wind (or is it just that I've gotten used to the smell of gasoline exhaust fumes on Chicago's expressways?) Ned and Tani Strain s/v Family Therapy 1995 h336 Chicago
Although I agree with much of what's been posted favoring diesel, I've had both and the one advantage of an Atomic Four is the ability to hand crank it if the starter fails. The ease of working on the A4 has been addressed and that fact has provided me with some great tales over the years. Another irritant of the diesel is the God-awful exhaust smell when powering down wind (or is it just that I've gotten used to the smell of gasoline exhaust fumes on Chicago's expressways?) Ned and Tani Strain s/v Family Therapy 1995 h336 Chicago
Diesel
Diesels seem good,but there seems to be a lot of work involved.Keeping the injectors clean,fuel filters,bleeding fuel lines of air,algue in your fuel because of climate.There just seems like more maintenance.As far as points in gasoline engines,change to electronic.All this is just my opinion.Good sailing
Diesels seem good,but there seems to be a lot of work involved.Keeping the injectors clean,fuel filters,bleeding fuel lines of air,algue in your fuel because of climate.There just seems like more maintenance.As far as points in gasoline engines,change to electronic.All this is just my opinion.Good sailing
Diesel is a sailor thing.
As Bill points out the little Atomic4's last just as long as a diesel when properly maintained. They now have a retro fit kit to switch the ignition over to electronic. Look at the number of boats that are produced in the US. 85-90% are power boats and the majority of the smaller boats (under 30-35') are gas. If you want diesel you pay a BIG upgrade cost. It is very true that sailors prefer diesel and when one goes to sell a gas powered sailboat, they are going to have a smaller audience. Diesel engines are not easier to work on. When you go looking for a mechanic a lot will say they can work on diesels, but we know for the responses on this website that there are a lot of diesel hackers out there that don't know squat about a diesel. I with all of you, I prefer a diesel but there are those out there that can work on gas engines and prefer that. I do not totally agree with the article on the Yacht Survey (this guy is not very knowledgable about sailboats) but he makes some good points. His references are mainly involving large diesel engines in big power boat.
As Bill points out the little Atomic4's last just as long as a diesel when properly maintained. They now have a retro fit kit to switch the ignition over to electronic. Look at the number of boats that are produced in the US. 85-90% are power boats and the majority of the smaller boats (under 30-35') are gas. If you want diesel you pay a BIG upgrade cost. It is very true that sailors prefer diesel and when one goes to sell a gas powered sailboat, they are going to have a smaller audience. Diesel engines are not easier to work on. When you go looking for a mechanic a lot will say they can work on diesels, but we know for the responses on this website that there are a lot of diesel hackers out there that don't know squat about a diesel. I with all of you, I prefer a diesel but there are those out there that can work on gas engines and prefer that. I do not totally agree with the article on the Yacht Survey (this guy is not very knowledgable about sailboats) but he makes some good points. His references are mainly involving large diesel engines in big power boat.
Steve
On what are you basing your statement that Pascoe is not knowledgeable about sailboats? Is it the Hunter 28 review?
On what are you basing your statement that Pascoe is not knowledgeable about sailboats? Is it the Hunter 28 review?
That and a couple of other items.
David: It was based on that and a few other items that he wrote about. He appears to be a publisher more than a surveyor! We all know that this is just my opinion.
David: It was based on that and a few other items that he wrote about. He appears to be a publisher more than a surveyor! We all know that this is just my opinion.
Yes that article is refering to Gas vs Diesel on
motorboats. If you look carefully,his whole article is refering to High Horsepower with lower displacement engines. If you read between the lines and really analyse what he is saying then he is almost recommending diesels for applications on Sailboats. And that the longevity issue he was talking about doesn't refer to our typical power plants
motorboats. If you look carefully,his whole article is refering to High Horsepower with lower displacement engines. If you read between the lines and really analyse what he is saying then he is almost recommending diesels for applications on Sailboats. And that the longevity issue he was talking about doesn't refer to our typical power plants
Had Both
Had an A4 gas in a Columbia 28 and a Yanmar diesel in an O'Day 27. The O'Day was marginally powered and had a good deal of vibration. However, it had a range of 450 miles and was extremely reliable. OTOH, the A4 was powerful, little vibration and very quiet, but thirsty. I had some ignition problems and carb problems, but once fixed for real, it also was reliable. For long motors on windless days, I'd take the gas A4 anytime. Remember, as others have pointed out, resale for the diesel is better. Rick D.
Had an A4 gas in a Columbia 28 and a Yanmar diesel in an O'Day 27. The O'Day was marginally powered and had a good deal of vibration. However, it had a range of 450 miles and was extremely reliable. OTOH, the A4 was powerful, little vibration and very quiet, but thirsty. I had some ignition problems and carb problems, but once fixed for real, it also was reliable. For long motors on windless days, I'd take the gas A4 anytime. Remember, as others have pointed out, resale for the diesel is better. Rick D.
Simplicity
wins every time. An earlier post mentioned the problems of keeping a diesel running -- cleaning injectors, injection pump, etc. These are made up problems. A modern diesel compared to a modern gasoline engine is simplicity itself. Feed it clean fuel, clean air (lots of it) and change the oil and filters often and it will run forever without a burp. Nothing ever needs adjustment. Nothing. Well, maybe the valves if they have mechanical lifters. The things will even run under water given a snorkel. Your batteries blow up (personal experience), your alternator dies, if the engine is running, it will continue to run and get you home. I have never done it but I have read that it is possible to start a diesel without a starter by jumping the transmission while under sail. And of course some of the old one lungers had a manuakl starting handle. However, I would not want to try to start a diesel without a hefty battery and good starter motor in cold weather. Forget it.
wins every time. An earlier post mentioned the problems of keeping a diesel running -- cleaning injectors, injection pump, etc. These are made up problems. A modern diesel compared to a modern gasoline engine is simplicity itself. Feed it clean fuel, clean air (lots of it) and change the oil and filters often and it will run forever without a burp. Nothing ever needs adjustment. Nothing. Well, maybe the valves if they have mechanical lifters. The things will even run under water given a snorkel. Your batteries blow up (personal experience), your alternator dies, if the engine is running, it will continue to run and get you home. I have never done it but I have read that it is possible to start a diesel without a starter by jumping the transmission while under sail. And of course some of the old one lungers had a manuakl starting handle. However, I would not want to try to start a diesel without a hefty battery and good starter motor in cold weather. Forget it.
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