Furling Systems - Dutchman experiences and opinions?

[jviss]

Recall the thread I started, Opinions on In-Mast Furlers? The boat I was looking at, with that, is no longer at the top of my list. The current list-leader has cruising laminate sails, and the Dutchman system.

So, experiences and opinions on the Dutchman? I watched a youtube video, and it looks brutally simple and inexpensive, and reliable. I'd like to hear of peoples experiences and opinions on this, please.

Thanks,

jv

 

[Gunni]

The only sail I ever destroyed was a mainsail with a Dutchman system. I allowed the sail to flog, the line grommets in the sail came out and the monofilament Dutchman lines sliced the sail like a cheese slicer and parted from the hoisting line. Total FUBAR.

 

[BigEasy]

I know that there are individuals out there who like the Dutchman system, however, I did have problems with it on my previous boat. The boat was a Hunter 33.5. When I bought it from a previous owner the Dutchman was already installed. I had repeated problems with the monofilament line, that ran thru grommets in the mainsail, breaking. So, I installed a small diameter vinyl coated SS wire in place of the monofilament. The SS wire worked well in that it didn't break; however, it interfered with the sail shape in light winds. And, still had to go on deck to reef or to furl the sail and attach sail ties, and place/remove the sail cover. Better than nothing because it does help in managing the sail, especially when dropping the main on the boom; however, I think that there are better options available.

 

[jviss]

Does the system retract when the main is furled, so you don't need slots cut in the mainsail cover?

 

[Justin_NSA]

Does the system retract when the main is furled, so you don't need slots cut in the mainsail cover?

The filament lines are attached at the foot of the sail and at the topping lift. You'll need slits in the cover just like you would with lazyjacks. My system works great. You don't have the issue with battens snagging on lazyjacks when you raise the sail. I tighten the topping lift when I raise or lower the sail and ease it while sailing.

 

[jviss]

Thanks, Justin. I currently have lazy jacks on my C36, which I designed,and are retractable, so I didn't have to slit my cover. I was wondering if anyone's done this with the Dutchman.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

People have a love/hate relationship with Dutchmans.
Dutchman lines can be difficult to properly adjust but when done correctly, the system is very effective and won't damage anything. The problems others mention arise only as a result of not adjusting them properly or failure to do the minimal maintenance required. Both self-inflicted problems. The lazy Jack lines conversely can damage sails regardless of how careful one is.

It's actually pretty easy to set them up correctly if you take the time after removing or replacing them. The only time I've ever had a problem was a result of a stupid mistake spacing them on the topping lift when I mistook the set mark for a stray mark and the mistake was obvious once hoisted.

The sail cover needs to be fitted to accommodate the Dutchman.

 

[Parsons]

Most of the "what's your opinion of the ... system?" are tainted because most people (obviously excepting Gunni, MaineSail, etc.) have not tried all the options in a variety of conditions. First, in looking at a used boat, the sail quality and replacement is probably not 10% of the purchase price, so it should rank no more than that in your decision. I bought my current C36 having never looked at the sails, expecting them to be the original cheapest quality and ready for replacement -- I gave them no value (Boy, was I right!)

Here's my experience with both Dutchman and Lazy-jacks for coastal cruising / day sailing with a couple or solo. I think that some mainsail dropping aid is needed, and all of them come with some drawbacks, usually in raising sails. All of this assumes you're following instructions (not trying to raise or lower off the wind, and taking time to get the system ready before it is used). Both systems do a good job corralling the sail coming down -- this depends largely on care in setting them up for retrieval. Both systems require loosening before raising and sailing, then re-tightening to recover the sail. On my C36, the Dutchman lets the sail fall off the boom when it is fully down, even when tightened, meaning more physical work to lift it back up to put on the sail cover. If not fully tightened and with the guidelines exactly vertical above the holes, the sail does not fall completely down but gets hung-up on the mono-filament. The Dutchman is more forgiving on raising, and cannot foul the battens. I did experience the "cutting" of the sail cloth when one of the guide rings popped apart, and it was a matter of seconds to get the sail down when I saw it happen, so it's very fast. I plan to replace this system with lazy-jacks this winter, with which I have experience on friends' boats and charters. I like the boom bag system (not possible with Dutchman) because I hate climbing all over the place putting on sail covers when I'm tired after sailing -- the zipper is attractive. I've never had a problem dropping sails into lazy jacks, except in charters where they do not clean the luff track.

 

[Gunni]

Yeah, had them all, dutchman, lazy jacks, stack pack (Doyle) and now lazy bag (Neil Pryde). If I got another boat and it had anything other than a bag it wouldn't for very long. There are some great tricks to making them foolproof and easy to use.

 

[jviss]

For reference, I currently have a C36 with retractable lazy jacks of my own design, which almost never snag a batten; it's been years. I have been planning, for years, to improve this with internal (to the mast) lazy jack hoisting lines, and to lead them to the cockpit, for lazy jacks up and down without going on deck. I have a Tides Marine Strong Track system. I'm switching to a thinner, more flexible halyard this year, which I think will make dropping even faster.

That said, both in-mast furling and Dutchman have the appeal that one can drop sails, or reef easily, without going on deck. At least I think so!

 

[Gunni]

I don't go on deck to hoist or drop my main (or reef it). I can hoist the main 9/10's up by hand (thanks StrongTrack), and a drop takes 15 seconds at most (thanks StrongTrack and lazybag.) Like I said there are install tricks.

 

[Calif. Ted]

I'm on my second boat with Dutchman, my current boat originally did not have slits in cover for control lines so I had to slack either the control lines only or the whole topping lift to put on, new cover has slits. As Gunni notes adjustment is key and when done right they work well. Getting a new sail made with the system can be a PITA, even Ullman's main loft had to order the "fairleads" (those plastic discs on the sail) and the discs for the pocket on foot, they cost a couple hundred dollars.

 

[iSailor]

Thanks, Justin. I currently have lazy jacks on my C36, which I designed,and are retractable, so I didn't have to slit my cover. I was wondering if anyone's done this with the Dutchman.

I am able tuck my Dutchman lines completely under my sail cover so I did not need slits in it. I loosen the topping lift, bring Dutchman attachments points (not sure of technical name) down towards boom (topping lift on a continuous loop), tuck Dutchman lines under sail ties and put cover on, then tighten topping lift.

 

[smokey73]

I don't go on deck to hoist or drop my main (or reef it). I can hoist the main 9/10's up by hand (thanks StrongTrack), and a drop takes 15 seconds at most (thanks StrongTrack and lazybag.) Like I said there are install tricks.

Gunni, I'm interested in some of your tricks. I have the StrongTrack and a Doyle Stack Pack but the last 6 feet or so of my sail will not drop into the pack without me going forward to manually pull it down. There is not much sail up at that point but it will just not fall the rest of the way. The mast is 63'9" above the water line so it is a big main. It seems there just isn't enough weight on that much sail left up to finish falling on its own. I'm kind of short so have to climb up on the mast steps to grab the sail. I was thinking of threading a few feet of small line up the sail cars that would hang down long enough for me to grab from the deck.

 

[oldlaxer1]

I adjusted my Dutchman a couple of times after I bought the boat and now it works great. Downside is having to put zippers in the main cover. I don't have a rigid vang and my topper cannot be eased enough to hide the monofilament under the sail ties like iSailor does. Other than that, I really like it.

 

[Ed Caldwell]

I'm on my second boat with Dutchman, my current boat originally did not have slits in cover for control lines so I had to slack either the control lines only or the whole topping lift to put on, new cover has slits. As Gunni notes adjustment is key and when done right they work well. Getting a new sail made with the system can be a PITA, even Ullman's main loft had to order the "fairleads" (those plastic discs on the sail) and the discs for the pocket on foot, they cost a couple hundred dollars.

An alternate to those discs is to have your loft sew in reinforcing patches and grommets instead. My discs deteriorated in the UV and most have now been replaced with grommets. Also I use weed whacker line and replace on about a 3-5 year interval as needed. Once your main is "trained", a few tugs at the luff and leech lays the sail down, flaked over the boom and ready for the cover. Just got back from a charter on a 44ft cat with lazy jacks and was reminded how you have to keep the boat pointed directly into the wind and pay careful attention as you hoist to avoid battens getting caught in the LJ lines, not an issue with Dutchman system.

 

[Gunni]

I have the StrongTrack and a Doyle Stack Pack but the last 6 feet or so of my sail will not drop into the pack without me going forward to manually pull it down. There is not much sail up at that point but it will just not fall the rest of the way. The mast is 63'9" above the water line so it is a big main. It seems there just isn't enough weight on that much sail left up to finish falling on its own.

• I have a big old Wichard halyard shackle, and a large metal headboard - release the halyard and let it run building momentum in the drop.
• My bag lines run to the center of the bottom spreader, not the mast, so when I drop it is into a spread bag and there is little need to control the speed and forcefulness of the drop. Full battens keep it in shape and drop into a big throat.
• My mainsail is extra heavy cloth with large attached cheekblocks for reefing lines.

One thing you may consider is what my previous owner did. He made up a length of 5/16" line with a shackle and attached it to the headboard and routed it back to the cockpit-basically a down haul for the sail. I took it off, don't need it.

 

[Gunni]

An alternate to those discs is to have your loft sew in reinforcing patches and grommets instead.

Excellent idea, I would recommend anyone with a dutchman have this done. Your sail should be stronger than that dutchman line.

 

[jviss]

I bought the boat with the Dutchman system, and I'm having trouble just understanding the set-up and adjustment. I found the manual online, and I find it a bit obtuse, even contradictory at times. For example, in one paragraph it says "B and C systems are for boom adjusted topping lifts (the topping lift is fixed to the top of the mast)." And then it explains "The B System uses a simple jam cleat at the bottom of the Continuous Topping Lift and a regular block up top, fine for occasional adjustments or replacing the control line." The top, being the top of the mast, hence, the topping lift isn't fixed, it's through a block.

Mine is a bit odd, I think with a loop of low-stretch, three-strand running from the boom end to a block at the top of the mast. There's a block at the boom end with an integral cam cleat, and the other end is just 'loose;' I attached it to a pad eye on the boom end. It is not loose, in that I can't seem to pull the line up or down like a clothes line as the manual suggests I should me able to.

The monofilament lines are a bit rough, could use replacement, I guess.

There is an abandoned pair of slots, one outboard and on inboard on the port side of the boom, and an inboard end cleat on the boom, but no turning block available in the boom end for a topping lift.

It appears the line going up and the one coming down both pass through the clamps.

So, anyone, confused. Is the topping lift line supposed to be a continuous loop?

 

[jviss]

I found some more Dutchman docs. It seems I have a continuous topping lift (CTL) system, with the jam cleat and block at the boom end, but with neither halyard nor boom toping lift control, that has been rigged incorrectly, in that the ends of the continuous toping lift are not knotted and enclosed in one of the clamps. I imagine this can work, if properly adjusted, but it's not covered in the Dutchman documentation, as far as I am aware.