How much pressure do you suppose is on your furling line when sailing under a reefed headsail? I just installed a furler and suspect that the 1/4" line recommended by the manuf may be a little too light and may run the risk of failing. Anyone have any idea?
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RonD
Depends
How big is the boat & headsail? I have a 32 ft boat with 135% Genoa and it has 3/8 inch line for furling. A 1/4 inch Dacron line has a working strength that's probably more than you can put on it while furling a moderate sized headsail without serious winching. And, if you must use the winch to furl the headsail, something isn't right. (That said, in heavy air I often do a turn on the winch just to hold things under control.) A 1/4 inch line is generally hard to handle (hands, winches, etc) so going to 3/8 inch might be better if the blocks & drum can handle it. It probably rolls up on the drum better, too.
How big is the boat & headsail? I have a 32 ft boat with 135% Genoa and it has 3/8 inch line for furling. A 1/4 inch Dacron line has a working strength that's probably more than you can put on it while furling a moderate sized headsail without serious winching. And, if you must use the winch to furl the headsail, something isn't right. (That said, in heavy air I often do a turn on the winch just to hold things under control.) A 1/4 inch line is generally hard to handle (hands, winches, etc) so going to 3/8 inch might be better if the blocks & drum can handle it. It probably rolls up on the drum better, too.
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Bill O'Donovan
Related answer
I have a bowsprit on a 29.5 with an eyelet for the tack that's as thick as one's pinky. Nevertheless, it bent 90 degrees on a recent broach, suggesting several hundred pounds of pressure, if not 1,000.
I have a bowsprit on a 29.5 with an eyelet for the tack that's as thick as one's pinky. Nevertheless, it bent 90 degrees on a recent broach, suggesting several hundred pounds of pressure, if not 1,000.
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Vic
The real pressure comes when you start ....
to use the winch on the jib sheets to trim up the sail ... so you are winching against the furling line. What size are your jib sheets and just how flat do you want to make the reefed jib? Furling alone should never be a problem with a small line ... reefing is the strain especially if you want to be flat. Vic "Seven"
to use the winch on the jib sheets to trim up the sail ... so you are winching against the furling line. What size are your jib sheets and just how flat do you want to make the reefed jib? Furling alone should never be a problem with a small line ... reefing is the strain especially if you want to be flat. Vic "Seven"
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Augie Byllott
Manufacturers specs are usually OK. That being said, remember that going from 1/4 to 3/8 is a 50% increase in size. Will the drum on your furler be able to hold the additional bulk? If the manufacturer is still in business, why not try a contact call or e-mail.
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Gord May
Furling Lines
should (generally) be as small as practical. As said, the specified 1/4" line may be a little hard on the hands, but I would hesitate increasing diameter without a demonstrated reason. BTW: I often "pin" my furler in place, when reefed. Regards, Gord
should (generally) be as small as practical. As said, the specified 1/4" line may be a little hard on the hands, but I would hesitate increasing diameter without a demonstrated reason. BTW: I often "pin" my furler in place, when reefed. Regards, Gord
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Kevin
Do you have room on the drum
for more line? If so why not upsize to 5/16 to provide a comfort factor. In general I'd think you have to trust the manufacturer's recommendation. I have never seen the answer to your question on how much pressure is generated. I noticed when shopping for a furling system this past winter that most manufacturers recommended decoring the line so it lies flatter and provides better grip. The system I bought called for 5/16 line and recommended it be decored. But since I was able to fit the 21 feet I need on the drum with the core left in, I have gone that route. This doubles the strength recommended by the manufacturer. Kevin
for more line? If so why not upsize to 5/16 to provide a comfort factor. In general I'd think you have to trust the manufacturer's recommendation. I have never seen the answer to your question on how much pressure is generated. I noticed when shopping for a furling system this past winter that most manufacturers recommended decoring the line so it lies flatter and provides better grip. The system I bought called for 5/16 line and recommended it be decored. But since I was able to fit the 21 feet I need on the drum with the core left in, I have gone that route. This doubles the strength recommended by the manufacturer. Kevin
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Steve
Decoring
I don't want to, but I'm going to go ahead and show my ignorance. What does decoring a line mean?
I don't want to, but I'm going to go ahead and show my ignorance. What does decoring a line mean?
decoring
Steve: Decoring is a process where the cover of the line is pulled back and the CORE material is trimmed down. Then the cover is put back. This is used to splice lines together where you do not want them to be any larger than the original line size or other processes where you do not want the line to be slightly smaller.
Steve: Decoring is a process where the cover of the line is pulled back and the CORE material is trimmed down. Then the cover is put back. This is used to splice lines together where you do not want them to be any larger than the original line size or other processes where you do not want the line to be slightly smaller.
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Ryan Ericson
Blended Line
You don't have to increase the diameter of the line to gain more strength. You might want to use a spectra blend, such as warp speed or xls extra. 1/4 Warpspeed has an average strength of 5,000 pounds, 1/4 xls extra of 2500 pounds. New England 1/4 Nylon/Nylon (not a blend) has a tensile strength of 2000 pounds.
You don't have to increase the diameter of the line to gain more strength. You might want to use a spectra blend, such as warp speed or xls extra. 1/4 Warpspeed has an average strength of 5,000 pounds, 1/4 xls extra of 2500 pounds. New England 1/4 Nylon/Nylon (not a blend) has a tensile strength of 2000 pounds.
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Gord May
1/4" Polyester
"Stay-Set X" (New England Ropes) has a breaking strength of 2,700 Lbs (WLL: +/- 500-600#). The Furling Line loading will be MUCH* less than the Sheet loading - which can be calculated or approximated @ Harken's website below. * I would GUESS furling line load to be less than 20% of sheet load??? My C&C 29 generates a #1 Genoa (222 Sq. Ft) sheet load of only 862 Lbs @ 30 Knots. http://www.harkencompuspec.com/ http://www.harken.com/blocks/loads.pdf Your specified 1/4" furling line should be sufficient. Regards, Gord
"Stay-Set X" (New England Ropes) has a breaking strength of 2,700 Lbs (WLL: +/- 500-600#). The Furling Line loading will be MUCH* less than the Sheet loading - which can be calculated or approximated @ Harken's website below. * I would GUESS furling line load to be less than 20% of sheet load??? My C&C 29 generates a #1 Genoa (222 Sq. Ft) sheet load of only 862 Lbs @ 30 Knots. http://www.harkencompuspec.com/ http://www.harken.com/blocks/loads.pdf Your specified 1/4" furling line should be sufficient. Regards, Gord
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Nathan
Specs
Thanks for all of the answers so far. I've got a 26 foot boat and am flying a 150. I have additional room on the drum, but would have to drill out the hole that you use to attach the line to accomodate a larger one. It sounds like I will be fine, but any additional input is much appreciated. I may install a larger line just for comfort's sake- the 1/4" is a bit hard to handle. Gord- how do you "pin" the drum?
Thanks for all of the answers so far. I've got a 26 foot boat and am flying a 150. I have additional room on the drum, but would have to drill out the hole that you use to attach the line to accomodate a larger one. It sounds like I will be fine, but any additional input is much appreciated. I may install a larger line just for comfort's sake- the 1/4" is a bit hard to handle. Gord- how do you "pin" the drum?
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Gord May
Pin the drum
by dropping a "pin" (I use a snap shackle, could be as simple as a bolt - Harken/others probably sell a purpose-made accessory)) through the holes in both the Drum (covers the spool) & Spool (holds the line). This restrains the furler, in it's "set" position, so there is no load on the line. There will, of course, be line loading when you furl/unfurl the sail. Gord
by dropping a "pin" (I use a snap shackle, could be as simple as a bolt - Harken/others probably sell a purpose-made accessory)) through the holes in both the Drum (covers the spool) & Spool (holds the line). This restrains the furler, in it's "set" position, so there is no load on the line. There will, of course, be line loading when you furl/unfurl the sail. Gord
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Kevin
You don't need a larger hole
to go to a larger line, just decore the first 6 inches of the larger line or thereabouts so you can feed it through the hole and tie the knot. The only issue I see with Gord's idea of pining the drum is that it eliminates the biggest advantage of roller furling which is not having to go to the fordeck in windy, rough conditions. Keep in mind why you boufgt the furler.
to go to a larger line, just decore the first 6 inches of the larger line or thereabouts so you can feed it through the hole and tie the knot. The only issue I see with Gord's idea of pining the drum is that it eliminates the biggest advantage of roller furling which is not having to go to the fordeck in windy, rough conditions. Keep in mind why you boufgt the furler.
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Gord May
Not to flog a dead horse,
butKevin's right - pinning the furler requires that I go fwd to furl. I don't have to handle the sail, just pull the pin. I don't always pin the drum, normally just when reefed heavier winds. Of course, these are the times you least like to leave the cockpit, sooo ... Gord
butKevin's right - pinning the furler requires that I go fwd to furl. I don't have to handle the sail, just pull the pin. I don't always pin the drum, normally just when reefed heavier winds. Of course, these are the times you least like to leave the cockpit, sooo ... Gord
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Rein Ciarfella
DECORING, PINNING, FURLING LINE LOAD/LINE SIZE
Decoring is the removal of part or all of the core of double braid line. Decoring that section of the line which actually spools onto the furling drum allows more or larger line to be used. The rest of the line is left intact so as to be easy to hand and effective on the winch and /or cleat. Decoring is easily done by making a bight, compressing the bight to partially spread the external strands , using a fid to extract the core from between the external strands at the place where you want to cut the core, then extracting the cut section out of the rope at that point, making sure the inner and outer layers are not heat-sealed or connected in any way at the bitter end. Concern as to line strength should really not be an issue. If the line is large enough to be easy to hand, then it's most likely strong enough. More important is choosing a line that works for your hands and whatever winch or cleat you use it on. StaSet might be OK, but StaSet X is too stiff for decent furling use and is better suited to halyards. Another concept to consider is the difference between a fully loaded furling drum and one that is partially empty. The more line on the drum the larger the effective diameter of the drum and the more torque exerted on the foil, hence easier furling. The converse applies if you have problems with overriding turns, although overriding can be eliminated by careful feeding out of the furling line under slight load when pulling the sails out. Also, at the very least there ought to be 3 or 4 extra turns on the drum when fully furled, to assure success when furling in heavier air when the furl is tighter and requires more turns to accomplish. Pinning a furling drum while underway is hardly a safe thing to do unless perhaps you have a trip line connected to the pin, led back to the cockpit. Pinning should only be done when leaving the boat at anchor, mooring or dock in expectation of higher winds, short of removing the sail in extreme conditions.
Decoring is the removal of part or all of the core of double braid line. Decoring that section of the line which actually spools onto the furling drum allows more or larger line to be used. The rest of the line is left intact so as to be easy to hand and effective on the winch and /or cleat. Decoring is easily done by making a bight, compressing the bight to partially spread the external strands , using a fid to extract the core from between the external strands at the place where you want to cut the core, then extracting the cut section out of the rope at that point, making sure the inner and outer layers are not heat-sealed or connected in any way at the bitter end. Concern as to line strength should really not be an issue. If the line is large enough to be easy to hand, then it's most likely strong enough. More important is choosing a line that works for your hands and whatever winch or cleat you use it on. StaSet might be OK, but StaSet X is too stiff for decent furling use and is better suited to halyards. Another concept to consider is the difference between a fully loaded furling drum and one that is partially empty. The more line on the drum the larger the effective diameter of the drum and the more torque exerted on the foil, hence easier furling. The converse applies if you have problems with overriding turns, although overriding can be eliminated by careful feeding out of the furling line under slight load when pulling the sails out. Also, at the very least there ought to be 3 or 4 extra turns on the drum when fully furled, to assure success when furling in heavier air when the furl is tighter and requires more turns to accomplish. Pinning a furling drum while underway is hardly a safe thing to do unless perhaps you have a trip line connected to the pin, led back to the cockpit. Pinning should only be done when leaving the boat at anchor, mooring or dock in expectation of higher winds, short of removing the sail in extreme conditions.
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Gord May
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Bob England
Furling or reefing?
There shouldn't be much load on the furling line if you bring the head of the boat up into the wind when furling the sail. Furling is rolling the sail up all the way. The problem with strength of the "furling" line (and all the other components of the system) is when you are using it to reef the headsail. Some manufacturers of furling systems specify that their equipment can be used to reef the headsail, but most just leave it to the user's judgement to decide whether to trust the system for reefing.
There shouldn't be much load on the furling line if you bring the head of the boat up into the wind when furling the sail. Furling is rolling the sail up all the way. The problem with strength of the "furling" line (and all the other components of the system) is when you are using it to reef the headsail. Some manufacturers of furling systems specify that their equipment can be used to reef the headsail, but most just leave it to the user's judgement to decide whether to trust the system for reefing.
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Nathan
Reefing.
Bob, I am specifically concerned about the load while reefed. I installed the furler specifically to have the option to shorten sail without having to leave the cockpit (mainly for my wife's comfort, though, as she doesn't like to heel.) I've gotten a little of experience with it now and offer the following: 1. 1/4 inch is most likely large enough to be safe, but it is KILLING my hands. Also, the line that I purchased has WAY too much spring in it. I am going to step up to a stiffer larger rope- just for my own comfort's sake. 2. I love this thing!!! No more running lines, no more feeding the sail up the headstay, no more folding the sail at the end of the day, no more dropping the sail from the stick in rolling seas. I can do everything myself right from the cockpit. Cut my launch time by 75%. Went out solo yesterday- threw the lines, motored out, killed the engine, pulled a sheet, and voila..I was set. Sailed into the dock under jib alone... pulled the furling line and zzzzzzip.. ghosted in. It's like a whole new boat. Can't believe I went this long without it.
Bob, I am specifically concerned about the load while reefed. I installed the furler specifically to have the option to shorten sail without having to leave the cockpit (mainly for my wife's comfort, though, as she doesn't like to heel.) I've gotten a little of experience with it now and offer the following: 1. 1/4 inch is most likely large enough to be safe, but it is KILLING my hands. Also, the line that I purchased has WAY too much spring in it. I am going to step up to a stiffer larger rope- just for my own comfort's sake. 2. I love this thing!!! No more running lines, no more feeding the sail up the headstay, no more folding the sail at the end of the day, no more dropping the sail from the stick in rolling seas. I can do everything myself right from the cockpit. Cut my launch time by 75%. Went out solo yesterday- threw the lines, motored out, killed the engine, pulled a sheet, and voila..I was set. Sailed into the dock under jib alone... pulled the furling line and zzzzzzip.. ghosted in. It's like a whole new boat. Can't believe I went this long without it.
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Jim Morrison
How much tension is normal?
These are all interesting responses. But one question seems to remain, in my opinion. How much tension should you experience when furling the genoa in a breeze? I have a 135 Genoa on an ericson 29. I have someone apply a little (very little) tension on a sheet to get a tight wrap and I would estimate that I pull with about five to 15 pounds of force (it seems to vary for reasons I can't explain). From experience on different boats it seems normal, and yes, if you have to put it on a winch you had better look up and see what's wrong. It shouldn't require that much force. Sailing gloves help if you think the line is hard on your hands.
These are all interesting responses. But one question seems to remain, in my opinion. How much tension should you experience when furling the genoa in a breeze? I have a 135 Genoa on an ericson 29. I have someone apply a little (very little) tension on a sheet to get a tight wrap and I would estimate that I pull with about five to 15 pounds of force (it seems to vary for reasons I can't explain). From experience on different boats it seems normal, and yes, if you have to put it on a winch you had better look up and see what's wrong. It shouldn't require that much force. Sailing gloves help if you think the line is hard on your hands.
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