i would like feedback on the major differences going from a eing keel to a full keel boat. also if anyone has a 37 0r 38 ft island packet how well do they sail in light winds? thanks alan
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Well, ya won't forget to drop the keel.
I went from a Venture 21 to a 39' LOA wooden yawl with a full keel. IP's don't move well in light airs.
I went from a Venture 21 to a 39' LOA wooden yawl with a full keel. IP's don't move well in light airs.
All you heard so far is true...what's a eing keel?
full keel boats are stable and solid and not great in light wind and good for crossing oceans or live aboards...that's why many boats have fin keels like your Hunter 310 as they are faster in light winds. As for Island Packets in light winds...slow.
full keel boats are stable and solid and not great in light wind and good for crossing oceans or live aboards...that's why many boats have fin keels like your Hunter 310 as they are faster in light winds. As for Island Packets in light winds...slow.
It's pretty easy to tell how a boat performs in
light air. Note the weight and observe the whetted surface area. Heavy-full keel boats are slow. Compare a fully loaded dump truck to a Corvette. OK, a slight exaggeration. But only slightly.
light air. Note the weight and observe the whetted surface area. Heavy-full keel boats are slow. Compare a fully loaded dump truck to a Corvette. OK, a slight exaggeration. But only slightly.
But
to quote HA Calahan's "Learning to sail" (circa 19-early) "Sometimes my boat would be carring two reefs and feel the crush of the sails, while a schooner would pass us flying everything but the skippers undershirt"
to quote HA Calahan's "Learning to sail" (circa 19-early) "Sometimes my boat would be carring two reefs and feel the crush of the sails, while a schooner would pass us flying everything but the skippers undershirt"
Key words;
Learning to Sail. And what was he driving? And just because a boat is schooner-rigged doesn't mean it has a full keel or heavy displacement. Well, ya, mostly it does. Hey, did I ever tell you guys my 'racing a Tayana' story? It's 1989 or so. We have or present boat. My wife and I are tied to the outside breakwater of our present marina on the downwind side taking a break from sailing in the 30+ knot gale that's turned the bay white with foam. Two old timers (OK, blowhards) were standing on the breakwater within earshot when a 37' Tayana cutter goes by hard on the wind. He has all of his sails out. One blowhard says to the other "Now THAT'S my kinda boat! Look at all those sails"! I looked at my wife and said "let's go". We shoved off, double reefed the main, rolled out less than half the 150 genny and passed the Tayana in LESS than a mile. He had a quarter mile head start.
Learning to Sail. And what was he driving? And just because a boat is schooner-rigged doesn't mean it has a full keel or heavy displacement. Well, ya, mostly it does.
Hey, did I ever tell you guys my 'racing a Tayana' story? It's 1989 or so. We have or present boat. My wife and I are tied to the outside breakwater of our present marina on the downwind side taking a break from sailing in the 30+ knot gale that's turned the bay white with foam. Two old timers (OK, blowhards) were standing on the breakwater within earshot when a 37' Tayana cutter goes by hard on the wind. He has all of his sails out. One blowhard says to the other "Now THAT'S my kinda boat! Look at all those sails"! I looked at my wife and said "let's go". We shoved off, double reefed the main, rolled out less than half the 150 genny and passed the Tayana in LESS than a mile. He had a quarter mile head start.Yes Fred I've read that story before
BUT the Tayana 37 has an impressive record of blue water sailing and circumnavigations. Robert Perry should be proud. Now Fred if you and your wife were going to sail from Washington to Tahiti which boat would you prefer???
BUT the Tayana 37 has an impressive record of blue water sailing and circumnavigations. Robert Perry should be proud. Now Fred if you and your wife were going to sail from Washington to Tahiti which boat would you prefer???
hey Fred
I got a kick out of your tale. My take on it is you were and are on the happy side to have caught and passed him. Now, my two cents worth. Having a full set of sails up in 30 knot winds on a 37'er (I have a 37' Irwin...about the same weight/waterline) might actually slow you down because of the degree of heal. You sail faster standing up. Second is the assumption the sailors on the other boat had everything trimmed right, including rudder and sails. Since you caught them, I assume you DID have yours set right. But maybe he didn't. This past summer a friend was at the helm and said "Why aren't we going anywhere in this wind (about 15 knots)? I looked up..and the sails were OK. I looked down, and the rudder was completely over, and acting as a brake. I walked over to the helm, straightened it, and it was like we were shot out of a cannon. So not all sailors are competent. In 30 knots only longer waterline boats or, a combination shorter waterline length/less weight could pass me, let alone catch me. I once had a Scampi try and he just smiled. My size ship compared to his made it look like we were a barge going nowhere. When we got in, he said he tried to catch us, and I said "I know". I wasn't bragging or anything but most of the guys in the 30' class pass me all the time in maybe 10 knots or less of wind, so they assume it is a barge...and it is, sort of. But once she gets going, in the right water height, she holds her own.
I got a kick out of your tale. My take on it is you were and are on the happy side to have caught and passed him. Now, my two cents worth. Having a full set of sails up in 30 knot winds on a 37'er (I have a 37' Irwin...about the same weight/waterline) might actually slow you down because of the degree of heal. You sail faster standing up. Second is the assumption the sailors on the other boat had everything trimmed right, including rudder and sails. Since you caught them, I assume you DID have yours set right. But maybe he didn't. This past summer a friend was at the helm and said "Why aren't we going anywhere in this wind (about 15 knots)? I looked up..and the sails were OK. I looked down, and the rudder was completely over, and acting as a brake. I walked over to the helm, straightened it, and it was like we were shot out of a cannon. So not all sailors are competent. In 30 knots only longer waterline boats or, a combination shorter waterline length/less weight could pass me, let alone catch me. I once had a Scampi try and he just smiled. My size ship compared to his made it look like we were a barge going nowhere. When we got in, he said he tried to catch us, and I said "I know". I wasn't bragging or anything but most of the guys in the 30' class pass me all the time in maybe 10 knots or less of wind, so they assume it is a barge...and it is, sort of. But once she gets going, in the right water height, she holds her own.
Full Keel vs ???
There are all kinds of keels around other than swing keels. Full keels, full keels with cut away fore foots and a wide variety of fin keel boats. As a general rule I would tell you that if you are going for long offshore passages, a full keel boat would be the only way to go. They are more sea kindly (usually), track better, and are a much more comfortable ride. The down side is they are slow unless the wind is really piping up, and I know I will offend some, but they are not very responsive to the helm, and are a real pig trying to back into a slip. If you are mostly going to be coastal cruising, short offshore passages, then go with one of the other choices, of fin keel boat.
There are all kinds of keels around other than swing keels. Full keels, full keels with cut away fore foots and a wide variety of fin keel boats. As a general rule I would tell you that if you are going for long offshore passages, a full keel boat would be the only way to go. They are more sea kindly (usually), track better, and are a much more comfortable ride. The down side is they are slow unless the wind is really piping up, and I know I will offend some, but they are not very responsive to the helm, and are a real pig trying to back into a slip. If you are mostly going to be coastal cruising, short offshore passages, then go with one of the other choices, of fin keel boat.
From an owner
I have owned both. Full keelers do not have to be slow. My present full keeler, a Nassau 34, will make 4 knots in 8 knots of breeze close/beam reaching. Not a J 35, but not as dreadful as some would expect. Many full keelers are quite heavy and I think that is as much or more of a factor than the wetted surface area. My boat weighs 14250, which is really on the high side of medium. A similar size Westsail or Hans C will weigh in around 20000 and they have a reputation for going slow in the light stuff. For Great Lakes cruising, I am quite happy with my boat because it is more comfortable than most fin keelers, both at the dock and at sea, and responds easily to the auto pilot. Even without the AP she will steer herself pretty well in moderate conditions. It is not very maneuverable nor does it accelerate well out of a tack so it would make a lousy course racing boat. I plan to enter a few point to point races next year and we will see how she does. I entered her in a single handed race a couple of years ago and we seemed to be holding our own until I dropped out with what I thought was a head tank leak. At the time, we were working upwind and had put away about 10 miles by the rhumb line. At the time I was just behind a Catalinea 32 and well ahead of a Tartan 27. Docking took me some time to learn, but I am pretty comfortable working it into tight places now - though it does not spin on its keel. One has to learn how to use prop walk in tight quarters. if you like a boat like an IP and plan to do some cruising, you will be happy with it. if your going to mostly day sail, maybe spend a few nights on board - save your money and get something cheaper. If racing around buoys is on your mind, it is not the boat you want. i find that on the days most boats are drifting, I do too. On days when people are sailing, I can sail, too.
I have owned both. Full keelers do not have to be slow. My present full keeler, a Nassau 34, will make 4 knots in 8 knots of breeze close/beam reaching. Not a J 35, but not as dreadful as some would expect. Many full keelers are quite heavy and I think that is as much or more of a factor than the wetted surface area. My boat weighs 14250, which is really on the high side of medium. A similar size Westsail or Hans C will weigh in around 20000 and they have a reputation for going slow in the light stuff. For Great Lakes cruising, I am quite happy with my boat because it is more comfortable than most fin keelers, both at the dock and at sea, and responds easily to the auto pilot. Even without the AP she will steer herself pretty well in moderate conditions. It is not very maneuverable nor does it accelerate well out of a tack so it would make a lousy course racing boat. I plan to enter a few point to point races next year and we will see how she does. I entered her in a single handed race a couple of years ago and we seemed to be holding our own until I dropped out with what I thought was a head tank leak. At the time, we were working upwind and had put away about 10 miles by the rhumb line. At the time I was just behind a Catalinea 32 and well ahead of a Tartan 27. Docking took me some time to learn, but I am pretty comfortable working it into tight places now - though it does not spin on its keel. One has to learn how to use prop walk in tight quarters. if you like a boat like an IP and plan to do some cruising, you will be happy with it. if your going to mostly day sail, maybe spend a few nights on board - save your money and get something cheaper. If racing around buoys is on your mind, it is not the boat you want. i find that on the days most boats are drifting, I do too. On days when people are sailing, I can sail, too.
IPs in light wind
IPs and other full keelers will move quite surprisingly well in 'light winds' ... but it takes some special 'expertise' thats not needed on a lightweight sloop, etc. - because the CE is in front of the mast. Such a boat in 'light winds' will require a lot of 'shifting the gears' to keep it moving at max. speed: FLAT sails and quite FLAT genoa for the 'legs' (3rd Gear, so to speak). When tacking you will need to 'ease' the boat and with as little 'rudder pressure' as possible or you sometimes will not 'make it through' the tack. Once through the tack you will need to bear off a bit or 'open the traveller a bit) as these boats simply do not accelerate well (in light winds) also -most importantly- you will need to power up the genoa headsail to initially increase the draft (slightly easing the sheets, etc.) - "low gear" ... then as the boat speed increases then adjust back (through 2nd gear) to FLAT sails settings (- 3rd gear). To make this work well you need a FULL set of telltales on both the luff and the leech of all sails. Usually below 8 knots the staysail will be 'harmful' to interaction between the genoa and the main ... so most on full keelers simply stow/douse it below ~8 kts. Sailing a 'heavy' full keeler successfully in light air, one must be mindful to minimize tacking (to keep the 'momentum' at its maximum; and, one should have a knowledge of precise sail shape/trim. Light wind sailing on all boats is a matter of keeping the apparent wind at a maximum at all times possible; more so, on a 'heavy'. Such boats usually are not a good idea for those that dont have good sail trim/shape sense that one usually learns on sailing/racing dinghys, etc. Of course with such immense wetted hull surface area, you'll need to have a smooth and fair bottom (bottom painted NOT with a 'roller'), feathering prop, and only 'finger tips' on the wheel. Once you get the boat 'up to speed' you do anything to keep that 'momentum going'. On the other end of the wind spectrum - ie.: above 20kts - such boats typically need to be sailed 'upright' and not too heeled over as a full keel will easily skid-off to leeward, and the helm will have a lot of apparent (but not) 'weather helm' thus vastlly slowing the boat. Such boats need to sailed somewhat upright and not too heeled over to have any speed and pointing ability - so to sail them well you have to learn to reef early ... and usually with the main reefed first, then the genoa (because that CE is in front of the mast and IN the genoa). If you reef a genoa first on a 'cutter' all you do is 'drag the rudder sideways' through the water. Full keeled (true) cutters are not 'easy' boats to sail if your only prior experience is on 'sloops'. But once you gain that 'cutter' expertise/knowledge will you rarely be 'passed' by a sloop in 'high wind' conditions. I think the IPs get a bad rap because most who sail them are 'sloop jockeys' and perhaps are too impatient to learn these 'tricks' needed to get a cutter 'moving', especially in 'light air' - and simply turn on the engine. I sail a Ty37 ... and I usually 'mop up' in PHRF racing.
IPs and other full keelers will move quite surprisingly well in 'light winds' ... but it takes some special 'expertise' thats not needed on a lightweight sloop, etc. - because the CE is in front of the mast. Such a boat in 'light winds' will require a lot of 'shifting the gears' to keep it moving at max. speed: FLAT sails and quite FLAT genoa for the 'legs' (3rd Gear, so to speak). When tacking you will need to 'ease' the boat and with as little 'rudder pressure' as possible or you sometimes will not 'make it through' the tack. Once through the tack you will need to bear off a bit or 'open the traveller a bit) as these boats simply do not accelerate well (in light winds) also -most importantly- you will need to power up the genoa headsail to initially increase the draft (slightly easing the sheets, etc.) - "low gear" ... then as the boat speed increases then adjust back (through 2nd gear) to FLAT sails settings (- 3rd gear). To make this work well you need a FULL set of telltales on both the luff and the leech of all sails. Usually below 8 knots the staysail will be 'harmful' to interaction between the genoa and the main ... so most on full keelers simply stow/douse it below ~8 kts. Sailing a 'heavy' full keeler successfully in light air, one must be mindful to minimize tacking (to keep the 'momentum' at its maximum; and, one should have a knowledge of precise sail shape/trim. Light wind sailing on all boats is a matter of keeping the apparent wind at a maximum at all times possible; more so, on a 'heavy'. Such boats usually are not a good idea for those that dont have good sail trim/shape sense that one usually learns on sailing/racing dinghys, etc. Of course with such immense wetted hull surface area, you'll need to have a smooth and fair bottom (bottom painted NOT with a 'roller'), feathering prop, and only 'finger tips' on the wheel. Once you get the boat 'up to speed' you do anything to keep that 'momentum going'. On the other end of the wind spectrum - ie.: above 20kts - such boats typically need to be sailed 'upright' and not too heeled over as a full keel will easily skid-off to leeward, and the helm will have a lot of apparent (but not) 'weather helm' thus vastlly slowing the boat. Such boats need to sailed somewhat upright and not too heeled over to have any speed and pointing ability - so to sail them well you have to learn to reef early ... and usually with the main reefed first, then the genoa (because that CE is in front of the mast and IN the genoa). If you reef a genoa first on a 'cutter' all you do is 'drag the rudder sideways' through the water. Full keeled (true) cutters are not 'easy' boats to sail if your only prior experience is on 'sloops'. But once you gain that 'cutter' expertise/knowledge will you rarely be 'passed' by a sloop in 'high wind' conditions. I think the IPs get a bad rap because most who sail them are 'sloop jockeys' and perhaps are too impatient to learn these 'tricks' needed to get a cutter 'moving', especially in 'light air' - and simply turn on the engine. I sail a Ty37 ... and I usually 'mop up' in PHRF racing.
We cruised on a 1990 IP 38.
We cruised a 1990 Island Packet with the cutter sail plan. They have enough sail area to sail fairly well in light winds. They aren't slugs by any means but they won't win any races against most light boats with anything less than a full keel. Offsetting this is what they will do in big winds when most of the 10,000 to 14,000 pound boats run for cover. We had an asymetrical chute with sock that we used when in lower winds. Additionally, the gear that you need to upgrade a lighter boat for cross ocean sailing is standard on IP's. Our boat had crossed the Alantic twice just as she came from the factory with the addition of the chute. If you plan to coastal sail or have mainly light winds then you might be better served with a lighter boat. If you are really going cruising then go for the best boat you can swing. That will probably not be a coastal boat. I LOVED out IP! There wasn't any place I wouldn't take her with good charts. Another good factor is that they only draw 5'. Something most lighter boats don't have. The main point against full keels is that they don't backup worth a damn! Ray
We cruised a 1990 Island Packet with the cutter sail plan. They have enough sail area to sail fairly well in light winds. They aren't slugs by any means but they won't win any races against most light boats with anything less than a full keel. Offsetting this is what they will do in big winds when most of the 10,000 to 14,000 pound boats run for cover. We had an asymetrical chute with sock that we used when in lower winds. Additionally, the gear that you need to upgrade a lighter boat for cross ocean sailing is standard on IP's. Our boat had crossed the Alantic twice just as she came from the factory with the addition of the chute. If you plan to coastal sail or have mainly light winds then you might be better served with a lighter boat. If you are really going cruising then go for the best boat you can swing. That will probably not be a coastal boat. I LOVED out IP! There wasn't any place I wouldn't take her with good charts. Another good factor is that they only draw 5'. Something most lighter boats don't have. The main point against full keels is that they don't backup worth a damn! Ray
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