Full enclosure questions

Aug 17, 2013
867
Pearson P30 202 Ottawa/Gatineau
Hello everyone
I’m at a loss here, I have been asked to make a full enclosure on a Viking 29.
Not that big of a deal, but…
The customer’s traveller and main sheet is just forward of the wheel, he wants it fully closed but still wants to be able to go sailing with it closed
I am looking for ways to make it happen, I know there is no way to fully close it when sailing, but if there is a small slit open to allow the main sheet to work but is close able when at anchor, it should work.

so far I thought of adding a piece of curved frame in front of the main sheet to allow a connecting panel to be present, and an other piece to be closed when at anchor maybe?

what do y ou all think???
I am open to ideas and suggestions
Frederic
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,596
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
Personally, I've always felt sailing with a closed enclosure is an oximoron. If you can close the enclosure, you aren't sailing. IF you are actually sailing, there are too many reasons to go on deck.

I had a boat with an enclosure, and while sailing, even in crummy or cold weather, I left the back open, such that I could com and go freely. Once anchored, I might close it. The cabin was heated and the front of the enclosure provided all of the wind and rain break I could want. The sun even heated it some, even open. As for the chill, that is what clothes are for. Aren't you going to need clothes when you duck out to do something? That would be bad if you were driving in short sleeves.

I think your idea is fine. I don't think the customer understands sailing.

It's not a car.
 
Aug 18, 2024
8
Sceptre 41 Vancouver
Depends where you live and sail....

We sail all year round here in British Columbia. Think cold'ish and rainy.

Our full enclosure allows us to sail (yes, sail) and not freeze or get soaked. (If it is not too bad, we will keep at least 1 opening open... but we don't have to. It is a simple/quick procedure to open up and go out on deck.)

But our traveller/mainsheet is in front of our dodger, so not a problem. In OP's case, the traveller arrangement would seem to preclude sailing combined with closed full enclosure.
 
Apr 5, 2009
2,945
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
It seems to me that the only way to have a fully enclosed cockpit on this boat would be to have the traveler moved or modified. The traveler has too much range of motion to be inside the encloser. Two options come to mind. Move the traver to the cabin top in a mid-boom configuration. Mount the travel on an arch over the enclosure.
 
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Sep 24, 2018
3,001
Catalina 30 MKIII Chicago
If you're doing a slit, perhaps some leather around that opening would protect the canvas from chafe? Some flat, stiff, leather with a simple cut in the middle would help close the gap and keep out the elements. Not sure if that makes sense. Happy to explain further
 
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Aug 17, 2013
867
Pearson P30 202 Ottawa/Gatineau
If you're doing a slit, perhaps some leather around that opening would protect the canvas from chafe? Some flat, stiff, leather with a simple cut in the middle would help close the gap and keep out the elements. Not sure if that makes sense. Happy to explain further
That is what I was thinking, I just need to figure the extended range of motion, I do like the other ideas about moving the traveller, not sure if the customer will agree.
I am going to see him tomorrow morning and see what can be done.

As for location, we are in Ottawa Canada, so cold and wet as well, maybe not as much as BC but still Canada.
I love those inputs, if you have more, please share
Frederic
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,596
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
I've also always felt that in rainy and snowy conditions I HAD to be able to stick my head out periodically to maintain a proper watch. Often, you can't see crap through vinyl windows without wipers. Just a few snow flakes and you are totally blind. Night is worse, might as well just pull a bag over your head. You simply must be able to stick your head out to maintain a proper watch.

Not me.
 
Jan 19, 2010
1,238
Catalina 34 Casco Bay
We have a dodger, Bimini and connector.. There is no way I'd sail with the connector in place. However, in foul weather and motoring it is ideal. So the connector totally obstructs one's ability to see the main sail's shape and tell tales.. The Bimini has a window it it. That too is inadequate to see shape and tell tales. I would say that if this enclosure has a isinglass panel in the cockpit overhead that is large enough to see to trim sail it would result in a greenhouse effect.
 
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Apr 5, 2009
2,945
Catalina '88 C30 tr/bs Oak Harbor, WA
Sailing here in the PNW is pretty common with dodger, Bimini and connector, with and without full sides. With the advent of Polycarbonate windows, being able to see out has greatly improved. It also is not that hard to unzip a panel to go our look out.
 
Aug 18, 2024
8
Sceptre 41 Vancouver
I've also always felt that in rainy and snowy conditions I HAD to be able to stick my head out periodically to maintain a proper watch. Often, you can't see crap through vinyl windows without wipers. Just a few snow flakes and you are totally blind. Night is worse, might as well just pull a bag over your head. You simply must be able to stick your head out to maintain a proper watch.

Not me.
A good point.

Fortunately, our Sceptre 41 has real glass windshield on the dodger (it also has inside steering with windshield wiper, but we never steer from inside).
 
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Mar 26, 2011
3,596
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
... It also is not that hard to unzip a panel to go our look out.
Not to be snarky ...

How often should one look to keep watch? Unzip a panel and roll it up or such, as compared to sliding a window open? Every few minutes in crowded waters, and no more than 15 minutes in more open places, I would think. Realistically, it stays open or you don't look, one or the other.

Don't get me wrong, I love hard tops and partial enclosures. I've sailed in the snow and enjoyed it. The cabin was heated. But I'd rather have the ability to see in an instant and get on deck in a moment. I don't need full gear, just enough stay warm in the wind for a few minutes. Being out of the wind is enough. Also, in a cat you can duck in the heated cabin (no companionway or stairs) and keep watch through the bay windows for a few minutes now and then, so perhaps a different point of view.

On my trimaran, I just wear better clothes. If it's dry, that's enough. If it raining ... I miss the hard top.
 

PaulK

.
Dec 1, 2009
1,303
Sabre 402 Southport, CT
Using a slit - perhaps with double zippers so the opening for the sheet can be moved to accommodate different points of sail - will be problematic if the sail needs to be adjusted frequently. Chafe from the sheet will damage zippers and quickly make Velcro worthless.
 

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,076
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
How often should one look to keep watch?
All the time. We have a variety of hazards. Logs, ell grass, kelp, tidal rips with debris fields, crab pots etc. if your not keeping watch you maybe damaging your boat.
 
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Likes: FastOlson

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
8,114
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Mid boom sheeting or an arch with traveler mounted above. If I was desperate for full enclosure I'd convert to mid boom sheeting. Otherwise, I'm in thinwater's camp. With a full enclosure you have visibility issues. A connecter between dodger and bimini can work if the geometry is right. Meaning the back of the dodger needs to be pretty close to the helm or else the connecter to the bimini will be unusually wide.
 
Jun 17, 2022
138
Hunter 380 Comox BC
I don't think there's anyway to have a bimini (top) with a traveller / mainsheet in that location. Given the range of motion of the mainsheet in various points of sale, the only option to have a top with that boat would be to attempt to move the traveller to the cabin top or build an arch. Both are very pricey options.

Has the customer been able to provide photos of similar boats equipped with an enclosure that is usable under way?
 
Aug 17, 2013
867
Pearson P30 202 Ottawa/Gatineau
Ok, so I am back from the customers boat
I managed to explain him the good, bad, possible and not possible.
He already has a Bimini on board, it is almost as far forward as possible(does cover the helm)
As for the dodger, I managed to show him a few possibilities and I can extend it back enough to give him some shade.
Now, the hard part, he understands that to have a connecting flap while sailing won’t happen unless we make a frame which would be in the way of manoeuvring the boat, so ok, so naught modify the Bimini slightly to give a bit more coverage forward without being in the way of the boom.
Now the fun really begins, I need to figure a way to make a removable side frame to support the side panels, really scratching my head there, a few ideas on the go, will see what works best
 
Jun 14, 2010
2,204
Robertson & Caine 2017 Leopard 40 CT
Don't do it! This customer will never be happy. If you want to do it anyway I suggest you ask your customer to confirm in writing (email is sufficient) that you don't recommend the configuration, and that you will not unless he confirms by reply email that he wants you to do it anyway. Also add that if he insists on this design - any subsequent modifications or "fixes" he requests to refine it or make it better are extra charge. Also, get paid at least 90% before delivery.
You could spend a lot of time and effort to try to satisfy him, and he might blame you for a poor implementation of his "simple" request. :banghead:
Edit - Don't experiment in business if you don't have a clear vision of success. This is advice from someone who owned a service business for 27 years
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,357
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
I pretty much agree with @Captin Larry-DH. Going outside your comfort zone on a design you consider improper will most times in business be a loser. Soaks up way too much of your time and mental energy. We aim to please but sometimes it's better let the business go elsewhere. But be nice in saying no.
 
Aug 17, 2013
867
Pearson P30 202 Ottawa/Gatineau
I gave the guy the honest way to possibly do it, he said he will look into what he is willing to accept, so far he understands that what he wants is not realistic, unless he moves the traveller, which he doesn’t want to do, so it’s in his court.
We will see what comes of it
 
Jun 14, 2010
2,204
Robertson & Caine 2017 Leopard 40 CT
FYI - On my third trimaran I had a full cockpit enclosure we would use only when at anchor and a prolonged rain was forecast. The mainsheet shackle was detached and I used barber haulers from each side of the boat (attached to the cross beams) to steady the boom while the full enclosure was deployed. I could have motored along in that configuration but quite frankly it would have been an impairment of vision and senses, and relatively unsafe vs. just using the bimini.
 
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