The old bronze seacocks in my boat are frozen in the open position (yes, I know I should turn them off after every trip). I've tried lightly tapping on the handle with a hammer, but it doesn't move. Can I free them up without hauling the boat? Perhaps by loosening the nut that holds the shaft the handle is on and tapping on the end of the shaft? I don't want to do anything dangerous without checking on here first.
frozen seacock
- Thread starter jluke
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I had something like 4 of 6 frozen open (bronze seacocks w/through bolted flange) when I bought my CC Caribbean, lucky for me it was on the hard.
I tried soaking in everything and nothing worked.
Finally I just took the handle off (the first one) and put a good quality 10" cresent wrench on the square end of the tapered plug and gave it a good whack with a 2 lb hammer. Knocked it loose and so I did the rest the same way.
Might work for you. If they're not corroded, those bronze flange type seacocks are pretty heavy duty.
I tried soaking in everything and nothing worked.
Finally I just took the handle off (the first one) and put a good quality 10" cresent wrench on the square end of the tapered plug and gave it a good whack with a 2 lb hammer. Knocked it loose and so I did the rest the same way.
Might work for you. If they're not corroded, those bronze flange type seacocks are pretty heavy duty.
Here is what I would do. Make sure you have wood plugs handy....Do the work during the normal nearest haul out hours. Call them in advance and give them a heads up. There that is your plan "B" .....
Next go and buy the correct size replacement valve. See picture of what type of ball valve I like to use. Next get a large vice gripe pliers. Lay attach the vise gripe flat against hull and carefully adjust it till it grabs the thru hull fitting just above the nut. Not to tight you do not want to crush the thru the hull fitting! But just tight enough that you can get a good bite on the treads. Make sure you can get it in a good leverage position. So the fitting will not turn. You do not want to break the seal with the hole in hull. Next using say a pipe wrench over the valve fitting make sure to get a good controlled hold and unscrew valve off thru hull fitting. It may not move at first but stay with it. Take your time. Sometimes a few light tamps from a rubber mallet on the end of pipe wrench handle will get it going, again just do not let thru hull fitting turn or see any side ways shock loads. Especially if you think they maybe showing some signs of electrolysis and will need replacing soon. Once it starts to unscrew you may be able start to turn it by hand. Has it slowly comes unscrewed you will start to have water coming in but do not let that freak you out. Once unscrewed put in the wood or rubber plug. Then take a breather and clean things up. Once things are all in order threads cleaned etc. Wrap some pipe dope tape on to the threads in the right direct of course. Pull plug and carefully screw on new valve do not cross threads and only hand tight at first. Have valve open has you do it makes it easier. Once hand tight close valve. Check for leaks. Then maybe give it one last slight turn just past being hand tight but no more. Now you have new valve. You know the rest.
BTW...The ball valves I like are white and have a red handle are made from a very strong resin plastic. I have never had one crack,split,jam,handle break off or fail in any way in over 8 years of use. See picture below...Its your choice on the type valve you want to spend money on. So you decide.
Attachments
We need to know if these are tapered cone style or ball valve style. Big difference. Ball valve you replace and tapered cone you can repair.
old bronze seacocks
The old bronze seacocks with the tapered cone are pretty much "bullet proof" if they were properly installed with backing blocks and bonded against corrosion. I slip a piece of pipe (where there's room) over the handle for increased leverage and it usually will move enough to be further loosened by hand. If you don't have room for the pipe, it can be simply loosened safely in the water (I'd still keep a bung handy) by loosening the nut that holds the shaft the handle is on and tapping on the end of the shaft as you said. Back the nut off until it is flush with the end of the threads and you can hit it pretty hard without damaging the threads. The cone will back out to the nut (you will be leaking, but it should be manageable) and you can work the handle back and forth to loosen. Then tighten the nut until there is no water leaking and the handle still turns. If absolutely necessary, you can tighten the nut to stop any leaking but you will have to loosen the nut to close or open the seacock each time until you haul.
Once hauled, remove the cone and clean the inside of the seacock and the cone, then using grinding compound work the cone back in and open and close the valve to reseat the cone. Wipe out the grinding compound and grease the cone and replace it, tightening the nut as tight as possible but leaving the handle free to move.This should be done at every haul out to each valve.
I would never recommend plastic valves below the waterline to anyone; they can break and the results would be catastrophic; stick to metal valves.
The old bronze seacocks with the tapered cone are pretty much "bullet proof" if they were properly installed with backing blocks and bonded against corrosion. I slip a piece of pipe (where there's room) over the handle for increased leverage and it usually will move enough to be further loosened by hand. If you don't have room for the pipe, it can be simply loosened safely in the water (I'd still keep a bung handy) by loosening the nut that holds the shaft the handle is on and tapping on the end of the shaft as you said. Back the nut off until it is flush with the end of the threads and you can hit it pretty hard without damaging the threads. The cone will back out to the nut (you will be leaking, but it should be manageable) and you can work the handle back and forth to loosen. Then tighten the nut until there is no water leaking and the handle still turns. If absolutely necessary, you can tighten the nut to stop any leaking but you will have to loosen the nut to close or open the seacock each time until you haul.
Once hauled, remove the cone and clean the inside of the seacock and the cone, then using grinding compound work the cone back in and open and close the valve to reseat the cone. Wipe out the grinding compound and grease the cone and replace it, tightening the nut as tight as possible but leaving the handle free to move.This should be done at every haul out to each valve.
I would never recommend plastic valves below the waterline to anyone; they can break and the results would be catastrophic; stick to metal valves.
PLEASE TELL US YOU ARE KIDDING!!!!!! Those valve sink boats, ask my customer with the Mako how bad and unsafe they are. Those valves are PVC and should not be used for seacocks. PVC should not be used for below water fittings and they do not meet any of the standards set for seacocks either UL or ABYC. Ask Tim R. another member here about the PVC in his cockpit scuppers. Or the Ericson customer of mine who had a PVC elbow crack.
Please buy only marine UL rated valves for below water use. In plastic this means Marelon, a glass reinforced nylon (DuPont Zytel). These are the only plastic valve that meets the UL and ABYC standards. Alternatively you can use UL Marine bronze valves made from 85-5-5-5 bronze.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE reconsider your use of those white PVC valves for anything but domestic water plumbing. They do not and will not come anywhere close to the min standards for seacocks. They work fine until they don't and when they don't your boat sinks....
PLEASE TELL US YOU ARE KIDDING!!!!!! Those valve sink boats, ask my customer with the Mako how bad and unsafe they are. Those valves are PVC and should not be used for seacocks. PVC should not be used for below water fittings and they do not meet any of the standards set for seacocks either UL or ABYC. Ask Tim R. another member here about the PVC in his cockpit scuppers. Or the Ericson customer of mine who had a PVC elbow crack.
Please buy only marine UL rated valves for below water use. In plastic this means Marelon, a glass reinforced nylon (DuPont Zytel). These are the only plastic valve that meets the UL and ABYC standards. Alternatively you can use UL Marine bronze valves made from 85-5-5-5 bronze.
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE reconsider your use of those white PVC valves for anything but domestic water plumbing. They do not and will not come anywhere close to the min standards for seacocks. They work fine until they don't and when they don't your boat sinks....
WRONG!! For the past 40 years every single 400% mark up Metal bronze seacock I have had experience with has failed in one way or anther. Some with in the first year and some in only two years have failed. Take your pick from rusting parts to just plain corroding up,and then locking up to were they will not operate,Handles breaking off and water pouring in,To Cracking and splitting.
I discovered by accident the use of these uPVC valves one day while sailing well out in the gulf of mexico in about 35 and gusting conditions when I had another one of these 400% mark up metal bronze valves fail. Handle broke off along with the small shaft water was gushing in from the side of valve. Wrapping the defective valve in rags or corked with plug was not going to do it. In a panic reached into a small bag of spare junk parts I had for some reason had tossed under settee before we left the dock and low and behold there was one of these valves. Quickly realized the size and threads matched up to the thru the hull fitting. Was very fortunate I was able to carefully unscrew valve off the fitting. Screwed the white uPVC ball valve into place just hand tight and emergency was over! This same uPVC ball valve as been in place for nearly 9 years now. I removed it just last year for a very close inspection no signs of deterioration at all, no cracks splitting, could not find anything wrong with it at all even the scum inside the ball valve easily cleaned away it still looked almost new. So I just put it back. All the other original valves on my 10 year old boat have failed in one way another. Some within two years others in about 4 years One bronze valve is still in place but we turn the handle with extreme caution. Tools at the ready. My plan I hope is to replaced it along with all the bronze thru hulls soon. I will probably replace them with marelon. No more needing to worry about any electrolysis issues with thru hull fittings. Will just have worry about the prop and shaft. Now if they would just make boat hulls or car bodies out of this stuff. Maybe some sort of upvc fiberglass carbon fiber composite would rock.
BTW....I do not use any cheap thin white PVC elbow fittings or plumbing pipe on the boat not even the house.
WRONG!! For the past 40 years every single 400% mark up Metal bronze seacock I have had experience with has failed in one way or anther. Some with in the first year and some in only two years have failed. Take your pick from rusting parts to just plain corroding up,and then locking up to were they will not operate,Handles breaking off and water pouring in,To Cracking and splitting.
I discovered by accident the use of these uPVC valves one day while sailing well out in the gulf of mexico in about 35 and gusting conditions when I had another one of these 400% mark up metal bronze valves fail. Handle broke off along with the small shaft water was gushing in from the side of valve. Wrapping the defective valve in rags or corked with plug was not going to do it. In a panic reached into a small bag of spare junk parts I had for some reason had tossed under settee before we left the dock and low and behold there was one of these valves. Quickly realized the size and threads matched up to the thru the hull fitting. Was very fortunate I was able to carefully unscrew valve off the fitting. Screwed the white uPVC ball valve into place just hand tight and emergency was over! This same uPVC ball valve as been in place for nearly 9 years now. I removed it just last year for a very close inspection no signs of deterioration at all, no cracks splitting, could not find anything wrong with it at all even the scum inside the ball valve easily cleaned away it still looked almost new. So I just put it back. All the other original valves on my 10 year old boat have failed in one way another. Some within two years others in about 4 years One bronze valve is still in place but we turn the handle with extreme caution. Tools at the ready. My plan I hope is to replaced it along with all the bronze thru hulls soon. I will probably replace them with marelon. No more needing to worry about any electrolysis issues with thru hull fittings. Will just have worry about the prop and shaft. Now if they would just make boat hulls or car bodies out of this stuff. Maybe some sort of upvc fiberglass carbon fiber composite would rock.
BTW....I do not use any cheap thin white PVC elbow fittings or plumbing pipe on the boat not even the house.
Robert,
Nothing "WRONG" with what I stated. No PVC valves meet any UL or ABYC safety standards for use as seacocks.
I am sorry to hear of your "bronze" issues but considering I simply don't see what you've seen, on hundreds and hundreds of boats, I have to suspect you were not getting UL Marine rated valves. I have a box of tapered cone seacocks from the 1930's. They came off a wooden boat refit two years ago. These valves were well into their 8th DECADE of service and still work perfectly. Despite looking like a green monster, verdegris, they have zero dezincification. That said ANY ball valve in the marine environment is a "wear item" that needs periodic replacement. Tapered cone seacocks can be "serviced" and I have many I work on surpassing 40 years of service. Of course they are VERY expensive. Only Robinhood Marine, Shannon and a couple of Down East builders still build boats with these valves because the OEM series Marelon valves are 1/4 the price.
Over the years there were MANY builders who either skirted the standards or simply decided not to build to them. There are also boats built before the safety standards existed. This means many of the valves found on numerous boats were NOT UL Marine or even bronze valves. Lots never met ABYC or UL standards. NO GATE VALVE ever met these standards. Any valve that had a handle rot off is a glaring indication of a non UL Marine valve.
There are also EU built boats shipped here that meet EU standards but not US standards. EU valves on need to meet a 5 year "expected life". they are made of a corrosion resistant BRASS not bronze.
All valves need to be exercised or they can seize and ANY ball valve can have seizing issues as can any improperly maintained tapered cone valve. Unless a ball valve specifically says UL Marine or ABYC on it then consider it suspect or call the manufacturer.
No plastic valve other than Marelon valve meets the standards so finding plastic valves is easy.
No PVC valve in either sched 40 or sched 80 meets the minimum strength requirements, fire standard. They are far weaker than Marleon and even a Marleon valve installed directly onto a seacock does not meet the standards. You'd need a true Marelon flanged seacock to do that.
This is also an area were a competent SAMS or NAMS surveyor would fail a boat in an insurance survey. I have had people call me to replace "plastic" valves as well as gate valves that were failed during survey.
Mako was a builder, who for a short period, used the exact style valve you pictured. I have seen the results of when they fail.. One cracked on a bait well intake and sunk the boat. It split right up the threads after being in used for over 8 years.
I post this because telling folks to buy a valve that does not even come close to meeting the minimum strength requirements can be dangerous.
If you want to use them on your own boat I wish you luck but I would recommend at least Marelon as it is far stronger than sched 40 PVC.
Thanks main sail for your concerns. Please Google upvc and cpvc and then let me know what you find. I suspect the UL people are running behind on there testing.
BTW...I am pretty sure all the valves I have had fail were UL stamped. Believe I may have one still in a junk box somewhere. Will have to dig it out and check.
BTW...I am pretty sure all the valves I have had fail were UL stamped. Believe I may have one still in a junk box somewhere. Will have to dig it out and check.
I've worked on and owned boats built in 1896, 1906 and 1910 with bronze seacocks that were in fine shape and the 1906 schooner was USCG certified to carry passengers yearly and on an old boat like that the certification is much more rigorous.
In over 50 years as a professional mariner I have never seen a bronze seacock fail if it was properly installed and bonded against corrosion.
I know nothing of your boat and would never presume to say what your woes in this area were caused by, but my 1981 Pearson has quite a few bronze seacocks and every one of the functions exactly as the should with never a problem.
Where we sail, the seacocks can become fouled with marine growth and shell, but the design of the tapered cone valve allows me to close it no matter how much shell and growth is in it, which your plastic valves will not do.
To each his own, you may do as you please aboard your own boat, but I heartily agree with Marine Sail that it is irresponsible for you to suggest to the novices that frequent this forum that an unapproved and unsuitable plastic valve can be used in a situation that could result in the loss of someone's boat.
In over 50 years as a professional mariner I have never seen a bronze seacock fail if it was properly installed and bonded against corrosion.
I know nothing of your boat and would never presume to say what your woes in this area were caused by, but my 1981 Pearson has quite a few bronze seacocks and every one of the functions exactly as the should with never a problem.
Where we sail, the seacocks can become fouled with marine growth and shell, but the design of the tapered cone valve allows me to close it no matter how much shell and growth is in it, which your plastic valves will not do.
To each his own, you may do as you please aboard your own boat, but I heartily agree with Marine Sail that it is irresponsible for you to suggest to the novices that frequent this forum that an unapproved and unsuitable plastic valve can be used in a situation that could result in the loss of someone's boat.
Heat ! just spent part of the last 2 days working on a seacock frozen open. No amount of persuasion worked, tried PB Blaster, no avail.
Used our heat gun to heat the body till it was to hot to touch, a couple of blows on the handle and it came free.
MSter
Used our heat gun to heat the body till it was to hot to touch, a couple of blows on the handle and it came free.
MSter
UL does not mean MARINE.
This post is a little old, but I'll chime in for stragglers.
I love sailing, and my family of 4 lives aboard a 48 footer in Minnesota.
I'm actually fairly new to boats. I am however, a master plumber. As such, I don't even recommend pvc for supply lines. PVC and CPVC are unstable compounds and become brittle with age. I've often had to replace entire plumbing systems because of small issues, simply because the piping is too brittle to make repairs to. It is true that many PVC valves are UL listed - for PLUMBING. They are not rated for marine usage and can even cause problems when used in marine fresh water systems.
UL is not marine specific. You may have UL stamped on half the electrical and plumbing components you own - IT DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE MARINE RATED.
As for bronze - I live on a 60 year old boat with nearly all original sea-cocks. The only one I have trouble with is the only new one. - It is plastic and doesn't close properly. It is my understanding that sea-cocks should have position stopping point for open and closed, all of mine do except the new one. It rotates 360 degrees and has no way to tell when it is fully open/closed. I'll replace this at my next haul-out.
:naughty:
This post is a little old, but I'll chime in for stragglers.
I love sailing, and my family of 4 lives aboard a 48 footer in Minnesota.
I'm actually fairly new to boats. I am however, a master plumber. As such, I don't even recommend pvc for supply lines. PVC and CPVC are unstable compounds and become brittle with age. I've often had to replace entire plumbing systems because of small issues, simply because the piping is too brittle to make repairs to. It is true that many PVC valves are UL listed - for PLUMBING. They are not rated for marine usage and can even cause problems when used in marine fresh water systems.
UL is not marine specific. You may have UL stamped on half the electrical and plumbing components you own - IT DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE MARINE RATED.
As for bronze - I live on a 60 year old boat with nearly all original sea-cocks. The only one I have trouble with is the only new one. - It is plastic and doesn't close properly. It is my understanding that sea-cocks should have position stopping point for open and closed, all of mine do except the new one. It rotates 360 degrees and has no way to tell when it is fully open/closed. I'll replace this at my next haul-out.
Trying to understand the various seacocks mentioned in this thread. Tapered cone, ball, bronze 85-5-5-5?
Am I safe just to choose one from Defender that fits my need? They do not mentioned type of bronze and they all mention ball.
My O'day has a gate valve on it I would like to replace.
Am I safe just to choose one from Defender that fits my need? They do not mentioned type of bronze and they all mention ball.
My O'day has a gate valve on it I would like to replace.
There is no way that Defender would even sell an inferior product like a gate valve. You will not go wrong with Defender.
While a tapered cone is the undisputed champion of ever and forever valves, it possibly may be a tad overkill for your application.
Just buy a bronze valve, that more than likely is going to be a ball valve anyway, or the suggested Marelon. I've got to admit to being a little prejudiced, but I like bronze. Although the Marelon is a perfectly fine valve, and the caveat of it won't corrode. Ever.
While a tapered cone is the undisputed champion of ever and forever valves, it possibly may be a tad overkill for your application.
Just buy a bronze valve, that more than likely is going to be a ball valve anyway, or the suggested Marelon. I've got to admit to being a little prejudiced, but I like bronze. Although the Marelon is a perfectly fine valve, and the caveat of it won't corrode. Ever.
Do you think you may have a problem with your insurance company if you had a non ABYC compliant or non approved valve. You know the insurance company is going to look for a way to not payout if you had claim.
Lack of maintenance would probably be what they would hang their hat on. I have a few seacocks that are difficult to reach and were a problem to turn the handle. I talked with a service tech where we wintered last year and he gave me a section of SS tubing that he had flattened the end slightly to make an extension for the handles. With the extra 12-14 inches I can turn every handle on the boat.
All U Get
And they will probably raise your rate or you would lose your "no claim" discount.
The SBO store has good prices on brozed ball type seacocks http://shop.sailboatowners.com/prod.php?16125 would need the thru hull and tail peice (attach to hose).
The black Marelon http://shop.sailboatowners.com/prod.php?16110 are a good price too.
How to FEED and Maintain your SeaCock's
Hi all! Let me just add that 73% of all boater's with 85-5-5-5 do not know how to do any maintenance on the sea-cook's. That's why you here; 'I's stuck" or "it's weeping" so I have to change it out now.. If you know how to care for them... you will never have any problems. It's that simple. So does anyone here know how to care for them? and please tell us how?
Thanks MRStargazer
Plastic is NOT the way to go.. They do age faster the BRASS.. and that's a fact.
Hi all! Let me just add that 73% of all boater's with 85-5-5-5 do not know how to do any maintenance on the sea-cook's. That's why you here; 'I's stuck" or "it's weeping" so I have to change it out now.. If you know how to care for them... you will never have any problems. It's that simple. So does anyone here know how to care for them? and please tell us how?
Thanks MRStargazer
Plastic is NOT the way to go.. They do age faster the BRASS.. and that's a fact.
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