I just noticed that a 3-foot long, single-strand of wire is dangling from my backstay, at the top, near the mast. It appears that the backstay cable is frayed... but it is only this one strand. Is this a dangerous situation? Should I replace the backstay immediately? Or is it safe to sail for a while, since it is apparently just the one strand? I certainly do not want the mast to come crashing down during a strong gust! My boat is an '84 Macgregor 25, and I am fairly sure it is the original backstay... so it is 23 years old! Many thanks for your advice!
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Yes, Yes, No
When I replaced my backstay for 1 broken strand at the boom hanger ferrule, I was able to break all the rest of the strands by flexing it back and forth a couple times. It's not expensive if you use nicopress swages, but you can do it at home if you use the norseman swageless fittings, a bit more expensive but they look cool ;D Check the rest of the cables, they are all under a lot more tension than the backstay Tim
When I replaced my backstay for 1 broken strand at the boom hanger ferrule, I was able to break all the rest of the strands by flexing it back and forth a couple times. It's not expensive if you use nicopress swages, but you can do it at home if you use the norseman swageless fittings, a bit more expensive but they look cool ;D Check the rest of the cables, they are all under a lot more tension than the backstay Tim
- Jan 22, 2008
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if one strand is broken
it is indicative that the rest are ready to break as well. Also the remaining strands are taking additonal strain from the broken one that is not. Time to replace that backstay. Check your other standing rigging while you are at it. If there is any sign of stress, broken or cracked strands, turnbuckles, bend T bolts, stretched chainplate holes, it is time to make that comparatively cheap insurance premium and replace the whole lot. Its a lot cheaper that replacing a broken or bent mast, and the damage that it may cause when it comes down. Also, while you still have all the original shrouds, it is easiest now to get a replacement set that fits exactly using the old ones for measure. You can always keep the old ones coiled and stowed for emergencies.
it is indicative that the rest are ready to break as well. Also the remaining strands are taking additonal strain from the broken one that is not. Time to replace that backstay. Check your other standing rigging while you are at it. If there is any sign of stress, broken or cracked strands, turnbuckles, bend T bolts, stretched chainplate holes, it is time to make that comparatively cheap insurance premium and replace the whole lot. Its a lot cheaper that replacing a broken or bent mast, and the damage that it may cause when it comes down. Also, while you still have all the original shrouds, it is easiest now to get a replacement set that fits exactly using the old ones for measure. You can always keep the old ones coiled and stowed for emergencies.
Time to replace all the standing rigging
Time to replace all the standing rigging unless there is a reason that the backstay is different then the rest of the wires. All the best, Robert Gainer
Time to replace all the standing rigging unless there is a reason that the backstay is different then the rest of the wires. All the best, Robert Gainer
If a wire in fresh water will last forever
Higgs, If a wire in fresh water will last forever why did the backstay fail? All the best, Robert Gainer
Higgs, If a wire in fresh water will last forever why did the backstay fail? All the best, Robert Gainer
Condem the rig!
Mr. Sindelar, You could pay 300$ for a rigging survey, but a small boat like that, wire 20+ yrs old...DEFINITELY replace it! Absolutely. No quarrel or quibble with the gentlemen hereabouts, but I respectfully disagree, stainless does rust, corrode, is brittle and subject to metal fatigue. Do you think it is some magic material? Galv rigging is just as strong as stainless, but will stretch more, and that can be a good factor. After fifteen years it is time to condem the rigging, bite the bullet and put in all new wire, NOT with nicro-press fittings (these are for lifelines) but swedged terminals, Norsemen, Sta-Locs or other solidly rig accepted terminals. Ihave been dismasted three times, and lucky, people get killed in dismatings and it sis not worth taking a chance when 'meathooks' have already been discovered on the backstay.
Mr. Sindelar, You could pay 300$ for a rigging survey, but a small boat like that, wire 20+ yrs old...DEFINITELY replace it! Absolutely. No quarrel or quibble with the gentlemen hereabouts, but I respectfully disagree, stainless does rust, corrode, is brittle and subject to metal fatigue. Do you think it is some magic material? Galv rigging is just as strong as stainless, but will stretch more, and that can be a good factor. After fifteen years it is time to condem the rigging, bite the bullet and put in all new wire, NOT with nicro-press fittings (these are for lifelines) but swedged terminals, Norsemen, Sta-Locs or other solidly rig accepted terminals. Ihave been dismasted three times, and lucky, people get killed in dismatings and it sis not worth taking a chance when 'meathooks' have already been discovered on the backstay.
Just do it
Michael, With polite disagreement to the more bold sailors, just repleace it....NOW. Fresh or salt water is not an issue. One strand is slightly more than a 5% loss in strength and I suspect that the others are ready to go. I have a Mac 26D and it had frayed wires also. Not an uncommon problem with trailor boats. One twist of the eye-splice around the fitting while raising the mast and you have doomed the rigging due to radical bending. The link below is for Bo'sun Supply. All your rigging/fitting needs at very good prices. Using nicro-press fitting and wire is very durable and less expensive than swageless fittings. That's why the builders use them. I do love the swageless but can't afford it. All new rigging will be cheaper than a rigging survey and replacing them one by one over time. You can do all the work yourself, as I and many others have done. Nicro-press is awkward though, and will require a helper or that you grow a third hand. And by the way, you can use any comercial crimper for $25 rather than pay $300 for theirs just for fear factor. They are built exactly the same and both have tuning adjustments. Good luck TC
Michael, With polite disagreement to the more bold sailors, just repleace it....NOW. Fresh or salt water is not an issue. One strand is slightly more than a 5% loss in strength and I suspect that the others are ready to go. I have a Mac 26D and it had frayed wires also. Not an uncommon problem with trailor boats. One twist of the eye-splice around the fitting while raising the mast and you have doomed the rigging due to radical bending. The link below is for Bo'sun Supply. All your rigging/fitting needs at very good prices. Using nicro-press fitting and wire is very durable and less expensive than swageless fittings. That's why the builders use them. I do love the swageless but can't afford it. All new rigging will be cheaper than a rigging survey and replacing them one by one over time. You can do all the work yourself, as I and many others have done. Nicro-press is awkward though, and will require a helper or that you grow a third hand. And by the way, you can use any comercial crimper for $25 rather than pay $300 for theirs just for fear factor. They are built exactly the same and both have tuning adjustments. Good luck TC
robert
My comment was not meant to suggest that rigging will never have problems on fresh water - things can happen and apparently do. Over the years I have had to replace a shroud or two. Generally, I don't think it is necessary to just replace all you rigging when sailing on fresh water. I have not known anyone on the Great Lakes who has replaced all their rigging. I am sure there are some, but in my 30 years I have not met anyone who has. I also do not know anyone on the lakes who has lost their rig due to old rigging. Close inspection is certainly important on a yearly basis and, when problems are spotted, replace the offending piece. I think that policy makes sense for fresh water sailors. I was going to replace my rigging once, becaseu all the magazines said we should. I took my back stay into Palmer Johnsons to get the new one made. They looked at my 20 year old stay and said I was nuts. I respected the expertise at PJs, a leading boat boatbuilder world wide, and abandoned my plan to replace the rigging. Likewise, the staff at my boat yard did not see the need to replace rigging just becasue it was 20 years old.
My comment was not meant to suggest that rigging will never have problems on fresh water - things can happen and apparently do. Over the years I have had to replace a shroud or two. Generally, I don't think it is necessary to just replace all you rigging when sailing on fresh water. I have not known anyone on the Great Lakes who has replaced all their rigging. I am sure there are some, but in my 30 years I have not met anyone who has. I also do not know anyone on the lakes who has lost their rig due to old rigging. Close inspection is certainly important on a yearly basis and, when problems are spotted, replace the offending piece. I think that policy makes sense for fresh water sailors. I was going to replace my rigging once, becaseu all the magazines said we should. I took my back stay into Palmer Johnsons to get the new one made. They looked at my 20 year old stay and said I was nuts. I respected the expertise at PJs, a leading boat boatbuilder world wide, and abandoned my plan to replace the rigging. Likewise, the staff at my boat yard did not see the need to replace rigging just becasue it was 20 years old.
Failure is the issue not salt or fresh water
Higgs, Let me start out by saying I don’t believe wire should be replaced just because you turned the page in a calendar. My Tartan 34C which is my primary boat is 35 years old and has been sailed hard in saltwater. She is rigged with type 304 wire and swage fittings. So I am sailing with wire that is 35 years old and I may be the only private boat owner that has enough rigging to do among all my boats that I can justify owning two swaggers one of which will swage up to 5/16” wire and cost me more then my Tartan. So why do I still have old wire on my boat. First I should say that I just bought a spool of type 316 wire and some swage fittings because I am replacing my rigging this winter. Now having said that, I was in the business for something like 30 years and am very comfortable with looking at my swages and deciding what machine made them and what condition they are in. I would venture to guess that very few boats owners could say the same thing. A lot of factors decide how long a wires lifespan is. What type of machine made the swage and how it was done count for a lot. How the wire was used and installed also makes a difference. For my boat in my application 35 years is enough and I am replacing them. But now we are talking about wire with a broken strand. My answer to the question included the caveat that I was assuming the backstay was the same age and condition as the rest of the wires. There is no reason to expect that backstay is in a different condition and made on a different swager then the rest of his rigging. If one wire is old enough to exhibit signs of failure its reasonable to think the other wires are in the same condition and not far from failure either unless they are newer. Why take a chance with something so inexpensive when the result of failure can cost so much. If one wire needs replacement because of failure, not age, then all the wires need replacement. If you want to start before replacement is required due to failure and have a revolving schedule to spread out the expense fine. But if a wire fails then all the wire of that age is suspect and needs replacement now not when and if you can afford it. All the best, Robert Gainer
Higgs, Let me start out by saying I don’t believe wire should be replaced just because you turned the page in a calendar. My Tartan 34C which is my primary boat is 35 years old and has been sailed hard in saltwater. She is rigged with type 304 wire and swage fittings. So I am sailing with wire that is 35 years old and I may be the only private boat owner that has enough rigging to do among all my boats that I can justify owning two swaggers one of which will swage up to 5/16” wire and cost me more then my Tartan. So why do I still have old wire on my boat. First I should say that I just bought a spool of type 316 wire and some swage fittings because I am replacing my rigging this winter. Now having said that, I was in the business for something like 30 years and am very comfortable with looking at my swages and deciding what machine made them and what condition they are in. I would venture to guess that very few boats owners could say the same thing. A lot of factors decide how long a wires lifespan is. What type of machine made the swage and how it was done count for a lot. How the wire was used and installed also makes a difference. For my boat in my application 35 years is enough and I am replacing them. But now we are talking about wire with a broken strand. My answer to the question included the caveat that I was assuming the backstay was the same age and condition as the rest of the wires. There is no reason to expect that backstay is in a different condition and made on a different swager then the rest of his rigging. If one wire is old enough to exhibit signs of failure its reasonable to think the other wires are in the same condition and not far from failure either unless they are newer. Why take a chance with something so inexpensive when the result of failure can cost so much. If one wire needs replacement because of failure, not age, then all the wires need replacement. If you want to start before replacement is required due to failure and have a revolving schedule to spread out the expense fine. But if a wire fails then all the wire of that age is suspect and needs replacement now not when and if you can afford it. All the best, Robert Gainer
Mr. Brian Toss
and Mr. Van Sickle wrote "The rigging Text Seminar" for marine surveyors. If you thought all surveyors were experts in rigging you're off just a wee bit. In the text, and Brian is the most competent rigging expert that I know of, his book "The Complete Riggers Apprentice" is the best (begginers) book on rigging that ever read, anyway, in the text Brian states, "rig age is a strong indicator of rig condition, and ALL forms of corrosion and fatigue take time and will invariably occur over time. He goes on the say, "fatigue is most difficult to detect, wire becomes brittle with no obvious symptoms". Fatigue is from something as commonplace as wind, or rocking in the berth with normal wakes. Dave Gerr also wrote a good article on this in his book "The Nature of Boats". Whether it is Sta-loks, I especially like these and have used them for most of the boats I've owned, Kearny or Rotary type swages they can all fail. Proud yarns on the standing part results from broken yarns in the swage. After twenty years I feel as spry as I was, but am I? If we do not judge age by birthdays ('calender years') then how should we, and good ol boys like butch & bubba sayin she'll be right mate for another thirty years because we have FRESH water round these parts, wonder if they would like to go for a sail in a gale with that rig themselves? My only motive here is for folks NOT to take a chance, a mate was nearly killed aboard my boat in one dismating, no he was NOT injured thank GOD.
and Mr. Van Sickle wrote "The rigging Text Seminar" for marine surveyors. If you thought all surveyors were experts in rigging you're off just a wee bit. In the text, and Brian is the most competent rigging expert that I know of, his book "The Complete Riggers Apprentice" is the best (begginers) book on rigging that ever read, anyway, in the text Brian states, "rig age is a strong indicator of rig condition, and ALL forms of corrosion and fatigue take time and will invariably occur over time. He goes on the say, "fatigue is most difficult to detect, wire becomes brittle with no obvious symptoms". Fatigue is from something as commonplace as wind, or rocking in the berth with normal wakes. Dave Gerr also wrote a good article on this in his book "The Nature of Boats". Whether it is Sta-loks, I especially like these and have used them for most of the boats I've owned, Kearny or Rotary type swages they can all fail. Proud yarns on the standing part results from broken yarns in the swage. After twenty years I feel as spry as I was, but am I? If we do not judge age by birthdays ('calender years') then how should we, and good ol boys like butch & bubba sayin she'll be right mate for another thirty years because we have FRESH water round these parts, wonder if they would like to go for a sail in a gale with that rig themselves? My only motive here is for folks NOT to take a chance, a mate was nearly killed aboard my boat in one dismating, no he was NOT injured thank GOD.
"Experts"
BTW Brian Toss an expert on rigging in the general boating world writes in this "Rigging Seminar Text" that wire rigging whould be replaced after 10 years rod after twenty.
BTW Brian Toss an expert on rigging in the general boating world writes in this "Rigging Seminar Text" that wire rigging whould be replaced after 10 years rod after twenty.
Link
Came across this link. The relevant quote: "I have not heard of a rig failing because of wire failure, doesn't mean it hasn't happened, however. It's always seems to be a swage, turnbuckle or tang giving way. The classic indicator of a failing wire cable is broken strand(s) in the bundle. Way late in the service life when that happens. A ten year service life is probably erring on the conservative side. If I was going to sea, I'd go with that time frame, however. I wouldn't go to sea with swage fittings, in any case, so would swap out the wire when I put on the mechanical terminals."
Came across this link. The relevant quote: "I have not heard of a rig failing because of wire failure, doesn't mean it hasn't happened, however. It's always seems to be a swage, turnbuckle or tang giving way. The classic indicator of a failing wire cable is broken strand(s) in the bundle. Way late in the service life when that happens. A ten year service life is probably erring on the conservative side. If I was going to sea, I'd go with that time frame, however. I wouldn't go to sea with swage fittings, in any case, so would swap out the wire when I put on the mechanical terminals."
It never surprises me to see Toss and expert
It never surprises me to see the words Toss and expert in the same sentence. He is very practical, smart and experienced, always a good combination. But a blanket recommendation to replace rigging ever 10 years no mater what it’s made of or how it was swaged is more then just conservative. Navtec estimates a life expectancy based on climate and water salinity. They say boats based for instance in Florida or the Caribbean Islands can expect 5 to 10 years and boats on the East/West coast of US get 10 to 15 years while Fresh water boats will see15 to 20 years of service. But this is just a guideline and it matters very much what the wire and swage is made from and the choice of swager also makes a great difference. As Toss point out in his Rigger’s Apprentice a swage made with a Kearney machine will not last nearly as long as the same swage made on a rotary hammer swager such as a Torrington machine. Also you can extend the life of a system by choosing the right type of stainless for the wire and swage. The 302/304 stainless is stronger but less corrosion proof then 316 types of stainless but the 316 swage is harder and more likely to suffer from work hardening which leads to early failure. The size of the wire compared to the strain is also important. In a racing boat you may have strains of 50% of the wires rated strength while in a cruising boat the greatest strain might be only 15 to 25% of the rated strength of the wire. In both cases the life of the wire is very different. I think frequent inspection and an understanding of what goes into a lifespan decision so you can decide when to replace your rigging is better then just a blanket rule which doesn’t fit all applications. All the best, Robert Gainer
It never surprises me to see the words Toss and expert in the same sentence. He is very practical, smart and experienced, always a good combination. But a blanket recommendation to replace rigging ever 10 years no mater what it’s made of or how it was swaged is more then just conservative. Navtec estimates a life expectancy based on climate and water salinity. They say boats based for instance in Florida or the Caribbean Islands can expect 5 to 10 years and boats on the East/West coast of US get 10 to 15 years while Fresh water boats will see15 to 20 years of service. But this is just a guideline and it matters very much what the wire and swage is made from and the choice of swager also makes a great difference. As Toss point out in his Rigger’s Apprentice a swage made with a Kearney machine will not last nearly as long as the same swage made on a rotary hammer swager such as a Torrington machine. Also you can extend the life of a system by choosing the right type of stainless for the wire and swage. The 302/304 stainless is stronger but less corrosion proof then 316 types of stainless but the 316 swage is harder and more likely to suffer from work hardening which leads to early failure. The size of the wire compared to the strain is also important. In a racing boat you may have strains of 50% of the wires rated strength while in a cruising boat the greatest strain might be only 15 to 25% of the rated strength of the wire. In both cases the life of the wire is very different. I think frequent inspection and an understanding of what goes into a lifespan decision so you can decide when to replace your rigging is better then just a blanket rule which doesn’t fit all applications. All the best, Robert Gainer
I have seen several wire failures
Dan, I have seen several wire failures. It is much more common to see the wire fail at the mouth of the swage but I have seen swages split, wire fail and clevis pins sheer along with the occasional turnbuckle failure. But with very few exceptions the failures were age related and not due to over stressing the rig. The only exceptions were very lightly built racing boats that lost rigs due to using very light wire. All the best, Robert Gainer
Dan, I have seen several wire failures. It is much more common to see the wire fail at the mouth of the swage but I have seen swages split, wire fail and clevis pins sheer along with the occasional turnbuckle failure. But with very few exceptions the failures were age related and not due to over stressing the rig. The only exceptions were very lightly built racing boats that lost rigs due to using very light wire. All the best, Robert Gainer
Old sayings and doom
If you see one cockroach. The 1 foot tall iceburg. Smoke. Chest pains. You caught your girlfriend kissing some dude. 23 year old rigging gear that's popping strands. These are all indicators of existing or pending doom way beyond the current hints. Better to take care of it now and face the quick pain then try to manage a huge amount more misery.
If you see one cockroach. The 1 foot tall iceburg. Smoke. Chest pains. You caught your girlfriend kissing some dude. 23 year old rigging gear that's popping strands. These are all indicators of existing or pending doom way beyond the current hints. Better to take care of it now and face the quick pain then try to manage a huge amount more misery.
Replace Standing Rigging Every Time You Sail
Even doing that may not be total assurance that you will not have a rig failure. I had the standing rigging replaced on my HobieCat( a boat I had years ago) and the next time out had a side stay fail, resulting in dis-masting. The rigging shop later told me that they had a die that was out of spec. I am not saying don't inspect your rigging and replace when prudent, but even 100% inspection will not assure zero failures. Michael, check the design of your rig. On my 88 Mac, the only real purpose of the backstay is to bend the mast. The spreaders are swept aft and the shrouds provide the support to the rear of the boat.
Even doing that may not be total assurance that you will not have a rig failure. I had the standing rigging replaced on my HobieCat( a boat I had years ago) and the next time out had a side stay fail, resulting in dis-masting. The rigging shop later told me that they had a die that was out of spec. I am not saying don't inspect your rigging and replace when prudent, but even 100% inspection will not assure zero failures. Michael, check the design of your rig. On my 88 Mac, the only real purpose of the backstay is to bend the mast. The spreaders are swept aft and the shrouds provide the support to the rear of the boat.
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