Fractional vs Masthead

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Don Guillette

Mates: Dean Strong of Edmonds, WA brings up an interesting point - masthead vs fractional rigs. I used to do a lot of racing until my wife told me one day perhaps I should go live with those guys since I seem to enjoy their company so much. I'm just a common seaman but I got the significance of that remark very quickly and cut way, way back. Of all the types of racing - beer can, off shore etc- I really like match racing the best. That is one of the reasons I look forward every year to the Catalina 30 Nationals. It is the high point of my sailing season. In my dreams, there is one race I would like to sail. I wish Catalina made a fractional rig so I could test both setups. I think the fractional rig is superior for only one reason and that is the America Cups boats are set up that way. If masthead was a better setup you can believe that is what they would be using. Back to my dream - I do believe that in a beer can amateur match race situation with 2 boats matched evenly (not even sure that is possible but this is a dream) and I was on the mast head rig I think I'd be first over the finish line. I think the jib is just a more powerful engine than the mainsail in the amateur ranks. A 155 and a large main is an awesome combinations when used correctly. Any takers - HAVE GUN - WILL TRAVEL!!
 
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
Best For a Family Boat

Don, I agree with your thought about if the Americas Cup boats would do better with a masthead rig they would have one. There are a number of other high-performance classes, including the Hobie 33, the old Star, etc. that are fractional rigged too. What I like best about the fractional rig is the smaller jib because for a family boat that's the best way to go. Not near as many feet of sheet to bring in on each tack. An item that may seem small but isn't, is the 110 jib on a 7/8ths rig doesn't lose that much power in light winds. With the 150 I get about 0.4kts more but the boat moves pretty well with just the 110. Most masthead rigs I see seem to fly fairly large Genoas so when the wind picks up you wind up geting overpowered easily. I'd MUCH rather throw a reef in than do a headsail change! What many people don't consider is that with one reef in a fractionally rigged boat is essentially a masthead rig (at least my HL-35 is). For me a reef is good for apparent winds in the low to mid 20s. In the meantime, when there is light air I go with the full main and, if I want, throw up the 150 or fly a chute. For a mom and pop boat the 7/8ths rig is about as easy to handle as it gets. I've crewed on boats the size of mine with masthead rigs and tacking is a real workout but for some, like for Fred if he is reading this, maybe they like the exercise! :) As for your dream - it seems that racers are always looking out for a way to get an edge. Unless the boat is checked throughly and regularly, maybe I'm a doubter, but I think you'll see people looking for a way to get an edge.
 

Alan

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Jun 2, 2004
4,174
Hunter 35.5 LI, NY
Curious???

Back in '98 I sailed in the Catalina 30 National Regatta. As I recall, it was held in Westport, CT. We swept those guys in a two day event of 4 races. I'd LOVE to take you up on that challenge Don. How can we make this work? ;D
 
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Don Guillette

It is a dream

Alan: I doubt I'll be on the East coast in the forseeable future. When I read your post I was thinking of Pattons words " Rommel in his tank and Patton in his tank doing battle one on one". I want to race a masthead against a fractional. The C30 Nationals are a fun event. I've sailed with Max Munger, who is the sect/tres of the C30 national org in San Diego, Long Beach, Santa Cruz and San Fran. Next year it is in Galveston, TX. If my new home is built before the event I'll attend. They want me to put on a sail trim seminar before the event. With everyone having the same level of knowledge about sail trim it should make for an intewresting event.
 

Alan

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Jun 2, 2004
4,174
Hunter 35.5 LI, NY
It is a dream

My 35.5(frac) vs your Cat 30(masthead) would fill your need for this race. Of course, I would owe you some time(about 30 seconds). If I can get my boat to Galveston next year, would you be up for a match race?? Damn, it sounds like a hellofan event. I'll see if I can make my plans up for this match race NOW. When is the C30 Nationals? Should take me about 10 days to reach Galveston from LI.
 

OldCat

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Jul 26, 2005
728
Catalina , Nacra 5.8, Laser, Hobie Hawk Wonmop, CO
Race a Masthead against a Fractional?

Don wrote: "I want to race a masthead against a fractional." I guess that I do not understand why? It would seem that for otherwise equal boats and racing sailors - the winner would be decided by the measurement rule or handicap in use. Am I missing something?
 
Jul 20, 2005
2,422
Whitby 55 Kemah, Tx
Alan

"Should take me about 10 days to reach Galveston from LI." Your joking, right? Even if you sailed straight at 7 knots without stopping, it would take you 13 days. I don't think you could make that trip non-stop...ok...maybe, but I don't think you could average 7 knots the whole way. At the bare min you will be fighting the gulf stream in two places. I would plan on making a few stops and it taking at least 20 days (might as well enjoy the trip with some stops and don't want to be late either and a few days to rest up before the race would be good).
 
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Don Guillette

C30 National

Alan: If you think Long Island has a lot of C30's how many would you think are located in So Ca - hundreds and hundreds and it is a bear to get them out on a race course. The year they held the race in long Beach, non spin had 3 or 4 boats and spin had about 4. It was a joke as a National event The National Ass'n has a manual called "just Add Water" which takes a YC through the event step by step but it still is a lot of work. I was going to go to Seattle last year but it did not work out and I'm glad I did not spend he bucks as it was only a few boats again. The absolute best event I've ever attended was the C30 National in Santa Cruz. 19 boats were in the non spin and we sailed in winds up to 40 knots. It was a blast. We came in second. One day, before I can't crank on a winch, I'd like to get a 1st. San Diego was the 2nd best National event I've ever attended. I wrote an article about the Santa Cruz event, which was published in the Catalina Mainsheet. I may post it here as I think some mates might enjoy reading it.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Designs as evolved by 'rules'....

What you see in an AC boat nowadays is probably a result of the upwind/downwind olympic course. Undeniably a fractional rig can out point and go-to-weather better than a masthead rig. As soon as 'reaching legs' on race courses lost favor, where a mast head rig will perform better and especially if staysails, etc. are flown 'under' then the course design automatically influenced the boat configuration design. I wonder what would happen to the AC, etc. design if the course configuration wasnt so locked-in and would 'alternate' between up/down and up/reach/reach/up/down .... you KNOW that youd see more mast headed rigs or even fractionals that would be 'approaching' a mast-head. Just look at the configurations for the long distance / circumnavigating races that have minimal upwind legs. The venue and lay-out of the course dictates the configuration that will do a better job; not the other way around.
 

OldCat

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Jul 26, 2005
728
Catalina , Nacra 5.8, Laser, Hobie Hawk Wonmop, CO
RichH: Why?

Why is a masthead rig better up wind? I am missing something here - can you educate us on this?
 

Alan

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Jun 2, 2004
4,174
Hunter 35.5 LI, NY
C30 National

Don, you raise a good point about attendace. I can't get over it!! I jump at the chance to attend almost any race let alone a National event, yet most sailors could care less.....how come????
 
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Don Guillette

Intimidation

Alan: I spent a lot of time with the race comm at my YC trying to get them to change their approach as it applies to getting new sailors into fun racing their boats, which would make them better sailors and they would be so much happier with their boats. They post flyers asking guys to come out and then wonder why nobody new shows up. The reason is their approach has no hook to it. They held a couple of newbie race meetings (my suggestion)and a number of new folks did show up but in 10 minutes the racers started with the technical race rules crap and at the first break the newbies left and never came back for that meeting or future meetings either. Prior to that meeting I had predicted to them that would be the result unless they put themselves back in time to what it was like when they started racing. No one listened and now they were pissed at me when no one came back! My wife no longer allows me to join any committees ANYWHERE because she feels we'll end up with no friends. She'll have them but I won't. My problem is folks ask me for my opinion and I give it to them but most times they don't like what I say because it goes contrary to what they are doing. Anyway, I think it all has to do with intimidation with all the rules, confusion at the start line and turning marks plus the newbies don't think they can sail as well as these guys. All this can be mitigated. My suggestion was to let me put on a sail trim seminar FREE for newbies. After the seminar they would be comfortable with their boats. Actually, they will sail their boats better than most of the guys I know at my YC. Next was a session on preparing for the start and then the start itself. Next were sessions on mark roundings. Lastly, was a session on rules, which woud be explianed in plain English. They already are in plain English but people make them complicated. No one on the committe liked my idea so I never went to another of their meetings, which pleased them immeasrurable. They still tell me how hard it is to get guys out on the course. I'm 65 and losing my memory (according to my wife) but I think those race comm guys at my club are brain dead. When they talk to me I don't say anything but I do bob my head like the bubble head dolls you see in the back of cars - that makes my wife very happy!!
 
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Bob

Getting 'em racing

A number of folks at my marina just don't feel capable of racing their boats without being humilitated. So last year we came up with a "semi-race". It's actually an excuse to sail together to another location for a meal or a beer (only one). We agree to start at a certain point at a certain time - some have radios, some not, and there is no gun per se, so the start is pretty casual. Then, the main rule is that if you have led all the other boats for 5 minutes you have to turn and go to the back of the pack and start over. What results is that the faster boats get lots of experience in working up through a pack - something they don't always get to do on a normal race day, and the slower boats, somewhere along the line, get to lead all the others, at least for a while. We don't really care who "wins", and there is plenty of action along the way. And the inexperienced folks get lots of practice sailing in proximity to others in a "racing" mode. Everyone has fun, there are no losers, and the ones who used to be intimidated are now starting to join the regular racing series.
 
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
Decline in Racing Boats

The racing fleet on Puget Sound has really declined in the past couple decades and has more or less reached a plateau. Currently you see the same old boats, year after year, out there going around the cans. There are a few new ones that show up but they are pretty much balanced by those dropping out. The fleet hasn't increased in size for years. Why? Intimidation may be a part of the problem but there is more to it. One major problem that I see is in handicaping and making it fair. The "racer types" (those guys that are out there for every race) say the handicap is based on a boat that is basically optimized for racing. There is no time given for a dirty bottom, worn sails, loads of batteries and other gear on board, etc. Okay, fine. So now what you have is a fleet of boats that have faired keels, expensive sails (like Alan's), the bottom is dove on before every major race or in some cases the boat is hauled and the crew sands (er, polishes) the bottom with 600 grit, the interior is striped of all unrelated gear that isn't needed for that particular race, tanks are emptied (one guy says if you use the porta potti you empty it), etc. So now they want to invite the guy who hasn't raced his boat in years. To be competitive all his cruising stuff really needs to be removed (for me thats a few pickup truck loads!) and even then you're at a disadvantage because of the lack of good racing gear. Penalty for feathering prop is a few seconds, flying sails a few more seconds, etc. - tokenism. This is not near enough to make up for the speed advantage these items provide. If the racers want to race either crew on someone elses boat which is competitive or buy a one-design which have closely monitored boats. Remember, the whole purpose of PHRF originally was to equalize "cruising" boats and not to create a dispariate class of racing boats. Unless the other non-die-hard-racer-types can get a fair credit for a boat in it's particular condition it'll never be competitive so why pay the annual dues to PHRF and spend time out there when you know you aren't going to be competitive? Anyway, that's my position. P.S. I think the route Alan had planed to go to Texas was via Bermuda (because his fin keel is too deep for the ICW) and then catch the next hurricane for Texas. :)
 
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Don Guillette

Semi race

Bob: I like the idea you guys came up with. Sounds like a lot of fun. It moves folks gradually into getting the most out of their boats when they see how easy it is to trim their sails.
 

Alan

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Jun 2, 2004
4,174
Hunter 35.5 LI, NY
Getting 'em racing

John makes a very good point about expecting "cruising" boats to race against true race boats and have a level playing field. A Mumm36 is considered a 'racer/cruiser'. I've NEVER met anybody who has cruised one of these or any other so called racer/cruisers. Hunter builds cruising boats because thats what sells. In order for me to race these guys I have to prep my boat to the max, ...no water, empty holding tank, a few gallons of fuel, super slick bottom thats truley faired, high tech racing sails and a great crew. After doing all that I have a shot at silver. The price I pay, my wife NEVER sails with me anymore and if I want to go away for a weekend or so, I have to spend 1/2 a day loading the boat with all that stuff in my garage that I can't keep onboard to race. As for nebies, its like asking the high school JV team to go play with the pros, ....what are we nuts?? The way I see it, someone is going to have to come up with an answer or soon there will only be racing eletists and millionaires.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Yup, elitism and Pros.......

Most fleets have declined as its expensive to continually keep up with 'leaders', plus the rules for newbies is a bit overwhelming. I gave up keelboat racing about 10 years ago and found a laid back fun fleet for Wednesday nite stuff. No hard rules, no penalties, no committee, most of the times an uncontrolled start line, you keep your own time for the finish, etc. .... and that fleet of centerboarders is healthy and growing .... because its FUN, almost ego-less, and the newbies are enthusiastically made part of it. Want to know how somebody beat you and what you can do next time .... just wait for the 'meeting' after the race and they'll politely tell you if you ask and theyll tell you how to beat them next time, etc. .... 'cause they are interested in bringing up the entire fleet. What a pleasing difference when the egos and bad manners are left behind. OldCat ... Methinks you misread my post. Fracs. point better than mastheads .... has to do with the mast location and narrower jib sheeting angles/aspect ratios, etc.
 
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Herb Parsons

Won't Be Racing Either of My Boats

I have an O'Day 25 on Lake Grapevine, TX, and a Coronado 35 on Lake Pontchartrain (and yes, it's still there, believe it or not). The Coronado won't be raced for pretty obvious reasons (if you've ever seen one, Don Case described them as an aircraft carrier with a bathtub in the middle, but we LOVE that boat!!). The O'Day I considered racing, using my handicap, and see how things worked out. Then, while I was thinking it over, a friend asked me if I would crew for him on his boat during the summer series. I won't even get into the captain/crew issue. Two other things convinced me that I won't be racing my boat. The first, but believe it or not, not the biggest, reason is the expense. Every race we've gone out on equipment has been damaged. I wouldn't be able to afford the replacement costs. The other reason though, is a bit harder to complain. When the friend got into sailing, it was for the same reason as I - the love of sailing. I've watched though, as the love of sailing gave way to "the race", then to "winning the race". I didn't like the change I saw. I didn't like the change in the way he talked to "guests" on his boat, but more than that, I didn't like the change in the attitude. It was driven home to me two weekends ago when we finished the race. It was a windy day, and they did a WLWLW race. That means, of course, that we ended WAY up the other end of the lake. After the race, in which we did OK - a poor second, we, now read this carefully, we fired up the motor and headed into the marina. I asked why we were motoring back. He looked at me like I was half-crazy, and said "Because the race is over." I probably won't be back after the fall season. My O'Day's mast is back up, and but the interior still needs to be finished out. Plus, it goes without saying, the Coronado on Lake Pontchartrain is going to need some work. After that, both boats need some serious sail time, as does their captain.
 
Jul 21, 2005
79
N/A N/A N/A
Try something different

I've mostly given up on racing. As Herb says, it often becomes too much about winning and not enough about sailing. I was recently skimming the september issue of Spinsheet, a free monthly mag about Chesapeake sailing. They had a small piece about a club that held what sounded like a fun dinghy race. You had to start out standing in waist deep water next to your boat. At the gun, climb into the boat, sail across the cove/river/whatever to an area where someone has dropped several watermelons overboard. You had to find the watermelon that had your sail # painted on it (on the underwater surface), haul it into the boat, and race back to the starting line.
 

Tereza

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Jun 10, 2005
185
Hunter 146 Candlewood Lake, CT
More watermelons needed

Now that's a race! What spirit!! Any race where you start off by standing next to your boat is very cool in my book - and picking up the watermelon - by definition, this race ensures that no one can take it too seriously. I suppose that no great advances in boat technology will come of such a race, but I bet lots of fun was had by all.
 
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