fractional rig vs mast head
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Everything is a trade off!
One is easy to tune and has bridge clearance. The other is consider faster and easier to sail (don't buy that one except you don't have to fight a huge jib). Trade offs. Life is full of them. I have owned to fraction rigs and one mast head. I do like the mast head better. I owned a H28 like Terry, an SJ-21 and now a Catalina. Yes, mast head rig weight on my discussion to get the Catalina.
One is easy to tune and has bridge clearance. The other is consider faster and easier to sail (don't buy that one except you don't have to fight a huge jib). Trade offs. Life is full of them. I have owned to fraction rigs and one mast head. I do like the mast head better. I owned a H28 like Terry, an SJ-21 and now a Catalina. Yes, mast head rig weight on my discussion to get the Catalina.
I bought my boat because I liked how roomy it was.
...How many of you make a decision on a boat just on fractional rig vs mast. I figure....I'll get use to the rigging one way or another as long as I am happy with my little boat. There, that solves the issue, right? abe
...How many of you make a decision on a boat just on fractional rig vs mast. I figure....I'll get use to the rigging one way or another as long as I am happy with my little boat. There, that solves the issue, right? abe
Which Rig
Seems to me that one would ask these questions BEFORE the decision on the boat was made. Not ask after the fact.
Seems to me that one would ask these questions BEFORE the decision on the boat was made. Not ask after the fact.
money & intellience! HAH! *pop
oh ross
money and intelligence ;D next i'll be reading about millitary intellegence *yks like 'old salt' says, he could have stolen it. how many stories of lottery winners have you heard whereby they lose millions in a coulple of years? intelligent! i think not. sorry to say i have no opinion about frac. or full rig other than for aesthetic value i like the full rig. p.s. anyone else notice that serenity4u2 has kept really quiet since posting? love this topic...might have to save it. iain.
oh ross
money and intelligence ;D next i'll be reading about millitary intellegence *yks like 'old salt' says, he could have stolen it. how many stories of lottery winners have you heard whereby they lose millions in a coulple of years? intelligent! i think not. sorry to say i have no opinion about frac. or full rig other than for aesthetic value i like the full rig. p.s. anyone else notice that serenity4u2 has kept really quiet since posting? love this topic...might have to save it. iain.
I love this thread
As several have said (written), every boat is compromise. But I suggest it is more than just Fractional vs. Masthead rig.. I would think it would also included Cutter vs. ketch vs. yawl vs...... and the list goes on... I have never been able to find everything I wanted in a boat that I could afford... Below is my list with the last attempt. http://www.sailingseadragon.com/DesirableCharacter.htm Oh by the way, 5 years latter the list is getting longer.... Keep the discussion alive. Garner
As several have said (written), every boat is compromise. But I suggest it is more than just Fractional vs. Masthead rig.. I would think it would also included Cutter vs. ketch vs. yawl vs...... and the list goes on... I have never been able to find everything I wanted in a boat that I could afford... Below is my list with the last attempt. http://www.sailingseadragon.com/DesirableCharacter.htm Oh by the way, 5 years latter the list is getting longer.... Keep the discussion alive. Garner
OK, I'll jump in
I bought a 1987 H28.5 with a B&R, masthead rig with a back stay. Sail inventory was a main, 155 genny, 110 genny and an asymetrical spinnaker. The 110 was only on the boat once or twice and I rarely used the spinnaker. I usually sailed with the 155 on a roller furling. I was pretty inexperienced and learned a lot on that boat. The speaders were swept back more than most and that limited how far you could let the main out when runing downwind. Anytime the wind was forward it was very easy to trim. I'd start by trimming the 155 to where the telltales were flying just right, then I'd adjust the main to that. When I was buying my current boat, a '92 H33.5 with a fractional, B&R rig, also with a backstay, the fractional rig was my biggest concern. It came with a 150 genny on a roller and a MONSTER main with a traditional halyard/store on boom arrangement, not a roller. If you are used to a masthead rig and a big genny you will have to re-learn sail trim. Now I have to trim the main first (not as easy or straight forward as a genny) then trim the genny to match the main. I'm just finishing my 4th season with this boat and I'm still learning the finer points of sail trim. It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks but it can be done. I don't see any advantage to the fractional rig only disadvantages. The main is huge and takes muscle to control and furl, the sweptback spreaders still limit how much I can let the main out on downwind runs, the genny (even at 150) doesn't have the power that I am used to, it is harder to keep it in the wind with the monster main blocking it on downwind runs and the whole sailplan just doesn't feel as "balanced" as my old masthead rigged H28.5. When the time comes to reef I now have to reef the main first otherwise it feels more unbalanced. It is considerably more work to reef a traditional (non-roller) main than the roller genny. My genny has a foam luff that keeps good shape even reefed down to a 130 (I would recommend a foam luff to everybody with a roller headsail). While I feel that I have come a long way towards getting the most out of this rig, my next boat will almost certainly be a masthead rig. Tom s/v Orion's Child
I bought a 1987 H28.5 with a B&R, masthead rig with a back stay. Sail inventory was a main, 155 genny, 110 genny and an asymetrical spinnaker. The 110 was only on the boat once or twice and I rarely used the spinnaker. I usually sailed with the 155 on a roller furling. I was pretty inexperienced and learned a lot on that boat. The speaders were swept back more than most and that limited how far you could let the main out when runing downwind. Anytime the wind was forward it was very easy to trim. I'd start by trimming the 155 to where the telltales were flying just right, then I'd adjust the main to that. When I was buying my current boat, a '92 H33.5 with a fractional, B&R rig, also with a backstay, the fractional rig was my biggest concern. It came with a 150 genny on a roller and a MONSTER main with a traditional halyard/store on boom arrangement, not a roller. If you are used to a masthead rig and a big genny you will have to re-learn sail trim. Now I have to trim the main first (not as easy or straight forward as a genny) then trim the genny to match the main. I'm just finishing my 4th season with this boat and I'm still learning the finer points of sail trim. It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks but it can be done. I don't see any advantage to the fractional rig only disadvantages. The main is huge and takes muscle to control and furl, the sweptback spreaders still limit how much I can let the main out on downwind runs, the genny (even at 150) doesn't have the power that I am used to, it is harder to keep it in the wind with the monster main blocking it on downwind runs and the whole sailplan just doesn't feel as "balanced" as my old masthead rigged H28.5. When the time comes to reef I now have to reef the main first otherwise it feels more unbalanced. It is considerably more work to reef a traditional (non-roller) main than the roller genny. My genny has a foam luff that keeps good shape even reefed down to a 130 (I would recommend a foam luff to everybody with a roller headsail). While I feel that I have come a long way towards getting the most out of this rig, my next boat will almost certainly be a masthead rig. Tom s/v Orion's Child
What Difference Does It Make - Redux
I thought you were referring to the 450/456. These are both CC but have a fractional Rig. The h45CC does NOT have a fractional! Check the link: (450 - 6th picture), http://album.sailboatowners.com/album?model=450&brand=Hunter (456 - 3rd picture, but close-up), http://album.sailboatowners.com/album?model=456&brand=Hunter The NEW 45CC (2006-7) does NOT have a fractional rig,
I thought you were referring to the 450/456. These are both CC but have a fractional Rig. The h45CC does NOT have a fractional! Check the link: (450 - 6th picture), http://album.sailboatowners.com/album?model=450&brand=Hunter (456 - 3rd picture, but close-up), http://album.sailboatowners.com/album?model=456&brand=Hunter The NEW 45CC (2006-7) does NOT have a fractional rig,
A small correction
tcbro, your 33.5 is not a B&R rig. It is a traditional frac rig with slightly (12 degree) swept spreaders, no diagonals. All B&R rigs typically have spreader angles of 20+ degrees and all use diagonals. This thread has developed into a childish argument of 'mine is better than yours'. As some have said, each design has its good points and bad. All boat designs are compromises. Far more important is learning how to sail whatever rig you have correctly. Splitting hairs over whose is better is pointless.
tcbro, your 33.5 is not a B&R rig. It is a traditional frac rig with slightly (12 degree) swept spreaders, no diagonals. All B&R rigs typically have spreader angles of 20+ degrees and all use diagonals. This thread has developed into a childish argument of 'mine is better than yours'. As some have said, each design has its good points and bad. All boat designs are compromises. Far more important is learning how to sail whatever rig you have correctly. Splitting hairs over whose is better is pointless.
Paul the Hunter Website shows the New H45CC
as a fractional rig (also as a backstayless B&R rig) Take a look http://www.huntermarine.com/Models/45CC/45CCGallery.html
as a fractional rig (also as a backstayless B&R rig) Take a look http://www.huntermarine.com/Models/45CC/45CCGallery.html
Jim
Lars Bergstrom's B&R rig was originally designed as a masthead rig with a headstay tensioner and backstay. Hunter has changed and bastardized his design to what you see in todays rigs. His design has been changed for one reason, to make it easier to hoist and douse sails. This comes at the cost of sail controls and proper sail shape. Many who buy these 'new' boats don't realize what they are sacrificing for the convenience of roller furling. Many are willing to settle for these limitations while others only discover these things when they have performance issues. Hunter's Child was designed and built as an around the world racer and has a B&R rig with none of the shortcomings that Hunter later added as 'upgrades' to their line of boats.
Lars Bergstrom's B&R rig was originally designed as a masthead rig with a headstay tensioner and backstay. Hunter has changed and bastardized his design to what you see in todays rigs. His design has been changed for one reason, to make it easier to hoist and douse sails. This comes at the cost of sail controls and proper sail shape. Many who buy these 'new' boats don't realize what they are sacrificing for the convenience of roller furling. Many are willing to settle for these limitations while others only discover these things when they have performance issues. Hunter's Child was designed and built as an around the world racer and has a B&R rig with none of the shortcomings that Hunter later added as 'upgrades' to their line of boats.
to me it doesn't matter
If I wanted performance, I wouldn't load the boat with 2,000 - 3,000 lbs. of beer, ice, water, wine, gear and tow a RIB and outboard and head out for a week. The B&R rig ( backstayless) with roller furling is easy to handle, hits reasonable speeds, ( 6-7 knots regularly) and the boat is comfortable for us. Although, I didn't know the difference between a masthead rig and fractional rig until I came to this site, and I'm glad everyone is so willing to explain and have a civilzed discussion on the differences.
If I wanted performance, I wouldn't load the boat with 2,000 - 3,000 lbs. of beer, ice, water, wine, gear and tow a RIB and outboard and head out for a week.
The B&R rig ( backstayless) with roller furling is easy to handle, hits reasonable speeds, ( 6-7 knots regularly) and the boat is comfortable for us. Although, I didn't know the difference between a masthead rig and fractional rig until I came to this site, and I'm glad everyone is so willing to explain and have a civilzed discussion on the differences. 
ya *pop it comes both ways but
how do you tune and shape the main or mast for that matter without a back stay( notice there isnt one on either)???
how do you tune and shape the main or mast for that matter without a back stay( notice there isnt one on either)???
Sand Sailor, the mast is tuned by the multitude of
Shrouds along with the 30 degree swept-back spreaders . The shrouds in conjunction with the angled back spreaders force the mast forward and in column. The intricate tripod arrangement is similar to the huge radio towers you see from the highways. Its not nearly as easy to tune as a masthead rig or a mast with backstay. In theory shaping the main would be done the same as with a mast with a backstay (with the outhaul, the mainsail sheet, a boom vang, etc). What you would lose is the ability tighten the backstay to tighten the forestay & flatten the jib and the mainsail
Shrouds along with the 30 degree swept-back spreaders . The shrouds in conjunction with the angled back spreaders force the mast forward and in column. The intricate tripod arrangement is similar to the huge radio towers you see from the highways. Its not nearly as easy to tune as a masthead rig or a mast with backstay. In theory shaping the main would be done the same as with a mast with a backstay (with the outhaul, the mainsail sheet, a boom vang, etc). What you would lose is the ability tighten the backstay to tighten the forestay & flatten the jib and the mainsail
Jim
Removing a backstay allows an extra large roach on the main without interference and removes an important sail control, the ability to flatten it as the wind increases. The backstay allows you to flatten the main removing twist and heeling forces. As a result these boats must reef much earlier than would be needed with the control. On a masthead rig it also allows adjustment of headstay tension. The more sail controls you have at your disposal the more accurately you can shape the sail for the conditions. Removing these controls is like taking away first and third gear in your car. Of course, roller mains have neither sail controls nor large sail area so they suffer from lack of performance. Some will say they don't care while others are unaware of the shortcomings until they find out the hard way. I'm certainly not trying to pass judgment on either but I do think that skippers need to be aware of the choices they make with a complete understanding of the pros and cons before they make their purchase.
Removing a backstay allows an extra large roach on the main without interference and removes an important sail control, the ability to flatten it as the wind increases. The backstay allows you to flatten the main removing twist and heeling forces. As a result these boats must reef much earlier than would be needed with the control. On a masthead rig it also allows adjustment of headstay tension. The more sail controls you have at your disposal the more accurately you can shape the sail for the conditions. Removing these controls is like taking away first and third gear in your car. Of course, roller mains have neither sail controls nor large sail area so they suffer from lack of performance. Some will say they don't care while others are unaware of the shortcomings until they find out the hard way. I'm certainly not trying to pass judgment on either but I do think that skippers need to be aware of the choices they make with a complete understanding of the pros and cons before they make their purchase.
a common mistake
backstay tension is not used to flatten the main, as was stated in the previous post. It's used, rather, to flatten the jib.
backstay tension is not used to flatten the main, as was stated in the previous post. It's used, rather, to flatten the jib.
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