Forestay Woes

[BrianW]

While I took my mast down on my Hunter 26 so I could have some fiberglass repair done, I noticed my forestay had 2 broken strands right above the ProFurl roller furler. My forestay is only 3 years old. The same thing happened before. I have attached a photo. I feel very fortunate to have caught this at its early stages! I could sure use some help in figuring out:
1) what caused this (twice)?
2) how I can keep from repeating?
3) how to repair?

Cause? I know one of the leading causes of forestay failure is "halyard wrap". My Profurl does have a wrapstop, but maybe it's not foolproof. My halyard swivel seems to work fine.

Prevention? If we figure out the cause, maybe y'all can help with prevention.

Repair? Right now, the forestay has all swaged terminals, with a T-ball on top. If possible, I would like to avoid completely taking apart the furler. I know a good rigger, but want to repair this myself, if possible (swageless fittings/splice links?). Thanks for your expertise and ideas! BrianW

 

[sailingdog]

It may be because of how the forestay is being bent when you have the mast down. Do you have a photo of that from a bit higher up, so you can see the tang and forestay attachment point. Do you have a toggle there???

 

[BrianW]

Hi Sailingdog. The upper forestay attaches to the mast about an inch or so above the top of the furler with a swaged T-ball terminal. The photo shows the furler wrapstop on the right, a very short length of forestay wire, the swaged end of the T-ball terminal and then, the attachment of the T-ball end into the mast. The object on the left is the mast T-ball slot plug. The mast is lowered very slowly with a gin pole system attached to the spin halyard and the mainsheet tackle. There is not much movement of the lower end of the furler/forestay during this process. BrianW

 

[Ross]

That picture shows me a very sharp bend in the short length of 1-19 wire. It probably gets bent each time the system is taken down or put up. Not an ideal arrangement.

 

[Rich (P303)]

Doesn't look right to me. Was this added on to your Hunter? Did it come like this? If you fix it so it looks the same... you will have the same results.

That fore-stay should be able to lay somewhat flat against the spar when down... if that is what I am looking at.

(1) too much of a bend
(2) lower furler a foot (then we have a sail problem)? The top of that thing looks really big. The top of mine is a little bigger than the foil.
(3) take it to a rigger to figure out what's going on.
(3A) Call Hunter and discuss

 

[John Nantz]

Twist in wire

The excessive bend is surely a factor but look at the way the wire is twisted. It looks like it was twisted a lot more than the original. If so, then there's something causing it to twist.

I agree, it's a good thing that this was caught when it was 'cause there's no backup if it fails.

Is the bottom end of the forestay twisted like this too? or just the top? Or, perhaps, is the bottom end "un-twisted", as in neutralizing the top?

This is certainly an interesting problem.

 

[sailingdog]

John—

It is very likely, IMHO, that after the wire is kinked, by being bent when the mast is down, the rotation of the furler foil against the kinked section of the forestay is what is causign that twisting that you see. Since the forestay is kinked, it will have a much greater tendency to twist under load—since the kink gives it a small lever arm for the foil to act against.

The excessive bend is surely a factor but look at the way the wire is twisted. It looks like it was twisted a lot more than the original. If so, then there's something causing it to twist.

I agree, it's a good thing that this was caught when it was 'cause there's no backup if it fails.

Is the bottom end of the forestay twisted like this too? or just the top? Or, perhaps, is the bottom end "un-twisted", as in neutralizing the top?

This is certainly an interesting problem.

 

[Maine Sail]

1X19 wire should NEVER be kinked like that photo shows. If you want to eliminate the issue you'll most likely need to cut your foils a tad shorter as the diameter/thickness of the head of the foil and the proximity of the tang are too close together thus creating a sharp kink in the 1X19...

My boat yard, about ten years ago, accidentally kinked one of my 1X19 stays and promptly replaced it without question. This was just a kink that was visible and permanent with no meat hooks. Any 1X19 that ever gets kinked should be replaced...

I vote to shorten the foil slightly to avoid the tight bend..

When storing the furler against the mast for transport DO NOT shove it or slide it up the mast towards the tang! I would instead pull it away from the tang and use a splint lashed to the spar to support the furler drum.. Perhaps the foil is actually short enough and you are creating this kink by sliding the furler up the mast for transport so the drum does not flap around..??

 

[Tim R.]

Is the t-ball fitting installed properly. I also have t-balls for my shrouds but they will sit flat against the mast when un stepped. I am wondering why the t-ball on your stay sticks out at such a high angle.

If your foil is preventing this then shortening the foil should help. Do yourself a favor and get a local rigger who sells/installs Profurls. If this fails, say goodby to your furler, sail and maybe your mast. Not to mention personal injury.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

The photo makes the t-ball fitting look as if it is rigid and unable to pivot the way it should. The angle looks to be 60 to 70 degrees from the mast, which wouldn't be right even when the furler is pulled out to the stem fitting. The stay would still be kinked even then. I suppose the photo may not represent the true position if the head of the foil is shoved to the top. Like Maine Sail says, even doing this for transport or temporary removal is enough to do damage that is irreversable.

 

[Ron20324]

My bet is it's because there are no toggles in the upper end of the stay to allow for movement instead of the stay bending back and forth. The stay works back and forth over the foil, causeing metal fatigue, then it breaks. Shorten the foil and add a double toggle, which will act like a universal joint. West catalogue, p1173, C- or something similar- can be attached to a new t-ball fitting. If I recall properly my Schaefer installation called for the foil length to leave 6 inches of wire exposed? There may well be a double toggle at the bottom of the stay for the same reason.

 

[Maine Sail]

Hope you don't mind

I marked up your photo a little.. As Dog said once you get a kink it probably then impinges on the inside of the foil and causes a meat hook.. I generally don't like more toggles than absolutely necessary up high on the mast, out of sight out of mind, but with a trailer sailor this might be a necessary option.. With this type of set up you could pull the top cotter pin and lash the foil to the spar without the issue of bending the spar mounted toggle & wire.

 

[BrianW]

Y'all are a GREAT bunch of folks! Today, I took a closer look at my forestay, furler and mast after reading your comments. It appears I DID jam the furler/forestay upward. From the current position of the furler as it lay beside (not on top) of the dropped mast, it reminded me that the bottom end of the furler slid askew and fell through two verticals of the bow pulpit and off the side of the bow while I was lowering the mast. I was doing this solo and didn't have enough hands to keep the furler aligned with the mast or secure it well enough. I probably jammed the furler upward to get back through the bow pulpit opening. While looking today, I also noted that the upper forestay T-ball fitting was loose inside the mast slot and not jammed or cocked inside the mast slot. From what little I could see of the bottom of the forestay, it looked to be in good shape. There were no signs of the wire unlaying, broken or stressed. Thank you all very much for your willingness to share your insight and experience! I have a few more questions I'll post in a separate reply. BrianW

 

[BrianW]

Maine, your markup of my photo was great! I have a couple more questions. You have a vertical arrow going from the point the forestay exits the furler's wrapstop (top of furler) to the mast surface, with a commnent, "too tall". What does that mean? This is a part that came with the furler to prevent halyard wrap. Does the forstay freely slide inside the foils of the furler (or visa versa)? Thanks! BrianW

 

[BrianW]

I have a couple of follow-up questions for y'all. I plan on using a rigger to do the repairs and modifications y'all suggested, but I would like to be armed with some of my options beforehand. For the forestay repair, should I replace the entire forestay, or use existing wire (if it's in good shape). The current forestay is 3 years old. If I install a toggle, it will act as a spacer and I probably would have enough forestay remaining. Can I inspect the remaining forestay without taking apart the furler? Maybe, by using messenger lines to allow me to pull the wire up or down and take a look at its condition? For the terminals, should I use swaged or swageless (a rigger will make the connections)? Thanks again! BrianW

 

[BrianW]

Could y'all please comment on my "to do" list? Anything I should add/change?
1) Modify my mast raising and lowering method to assure I don't push up or misalign the forestay. Make sure my T-ball fitting is in the proper position while raising/lowering mast.
2) Repair or replace the forestay
3) Shorten the furler by about 3-4 inches, more if my jib height will allow.
4) Install a toggle between the upper forestay terminal and the furler
5) Lengthen wire length at some point between furler top and terminal fitting
6) Improve my standing rigging inspection plan
Thanks, BrianW

 

[sailingdog]

I believe he means that you should shorten the foil on your furling unit, so that the top section with the lip is further from the t-ball socket, leaving the forestay and a much more gradual angle, and far less likely to kink—provided you don't gorilla the whole thing towards the top of the mast.

The further the part with the wide lip is from the top of the forestay, the more acute the angle the forestay can make with the mast, and the straighter it will lie.

Maine, your markup of my photo was great! I have a couple more questions. You have a vertical arrow going from the point the forestay exits the furler's wrapstop (top of furler) to the mast surface, with a commnent, "too tall". What does that mean? This is a part that came with the furler to prevent halyard wrap. Does the forstay freely slide inside the foils of the furler (or visa versa)? Thanks! BrianW

 

[sailingdog]

I'd replace the forestay, since they're really not that expensive. I would also go with a swaged top terminal and a swageless fitting, like a Hayn HiMod, Norseman or StaLock for the bottom.

I have a couple of follow-up questions for y'all. I plan on using a rigger to do the repairs and modifications y'all suggested, but I would like to be armed with some of my options beforehand. For the forestay repair, should I replace the entire forestay, or use existing wire (if it's in good shape). The current forestay is 3 years old. If I install a toggle, it will act as a spacer and I probably would have enough forestay remaining. Can I inspect the remaining forestay without taking apart the furler? Maybe, by using messenger lines to allow me to pull the wire up or down and take a look at its condition? For the terminals, should I use swaged or swageless (a rigger will make the connections)? Thanks again! BrianW

 

[sailingdog]

Could y'all please comment on my "to do" list? Anything I should add/change?
1) Modify my mast raising and lowering method to assure I don't push up or misalign the forestay. Make sure my T-ball fitting is in the proper position while raising/lowering mast.

Add a fork to the bottom of the mast, that you can drop the forestay into as you lower the mast. This will help prevent problems with it when lowering the mast. I have a trailerable boat and that is how the mast setup is on it.

2) Repair or replace the forestay

I'd go with replace rather than repair. It is easier to make sure everything is in good shape that way.

3) Shorten the furler by about 3-4 inches, more if my jib height will allow.

Yes, shorten the foil. How difficult this will be depends on the foil system. Some shorten the top section, others the bottom.

4) Install a toggle between the upper forestay terminal and the furler

Not a big fan of them, but they make a lot of sense on a trailerable boat.

5) Lengthen wire length at some point between furler top and terminal fitting

Don't really need to do this, since cutting the foil shorter is going to effectively accomplish this in any case.

6) Improve my standing rigging inspection plan
Thanks, BrianW

Probably a good idea, especially on a trailerable, where the rigging is treated much differently than it is on a boat that has the stick up all the time. IMHO, there's more wear and tear on a trailerable boat's rigging.

 

[Maine Sail]

Maine, your markup of my photo was great! I have a couple more questions. You have a vertical arrow going from the point the forestay exits the furler's wrapstop (top of furler) to the mast surface, with a commnent, "too tall". What does that mean? This is a part that came with the furler to prevent halyard wrap. Does the forstay freely slide inside the foils of the furler (or visa versa)? Thanks! BrianW

It just means that for that short section of wire between the swagged tee fitting and the top of the foil that when you shove it North the height of the foil entry point and the corresponding short section of wire will combine to "kink" the wire.. It's not to tall but it is to tall to be shoved up against that particular set up.. Hope that made sense...