Forestay Tension

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May 17, 2004
2,111
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Bob from Va asked about forestay tension and mentioned that some sailors keep the forstay tight going upwind and slack off while going downwind. The following is an explanation of why the above is done. As an aside, when I work with racing crews who are trying to improve I first start out by having them just sail the boat as they normally would. That helps me pick a starting point. When the skipper calls for his first sail trim adjustment I ask him what he was trying to accomplish and sometimes I get correct answers and other times incorrect ones - sometimes my first question also stops further question, which is the opposite of what I want to do. With my "on the water seminars" the crew has to explain every sail trim adjustmentbefore they make it. Since most have spent 3 hours in my classroom that is very easy for them. Anyway, the point of this is that when you see a dock neighbor making sail trim adjustments ask him why and what he is doing. Hopefully, you'll get the correct answer. Unfortuantely for me I never did and that is why I decided to figure it out for myself. Headstay tension affects both jib draft depth and draft position and to some degree twist. You are also messing with the mainsail when you make these adjustments and that is why I say to beginners to intermediates to not mess with it until your very sure of what you are doing. With most production boats you can't bend the mast anyway. You can only rake it back. On a masthead rig you control headstay sag with the backstay. On fractional rigs like America Cup boats it is controlled with running backstays. In Bob's question what we are actually looking at is the forestay is tightened when you crank on the backstay and it becomes loose when when the mast is straightened. Going downwind the mast should be straight. Actually, it would perform better if it was leaned way forward. If you could actually bend the mast (like a J boat) what would happen is that the jib Draft Position would move forward. When you straightened the mast the Draft Position would move aft. As you do this you are also changing the Draft Depth (belly) in the top and middle of the sail. As you can see you have to have a knowledge of draft depth, draft position and twist to understand what I'm talking about. Sagging the headstay provides a fuller sail and is usefull in light conditions and chop. Eliminating the sag flattens the sail, which is good in stiff winds. The bottom line is that the more you sag the headstay the less forgiving your performance band is. You are narrowing your margin of error and in other words, you should know what your doing and what results you are after when you attempt this.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Don, That is very

interesting and helpful for racing purposes. But when cruising short handed I should think that a tight head stay would be the best compromise between optimum sail efficiency and simple convenience. That said I don't want to hijack the thread. You might comment on sail trim when you have just a working jib and a mainsail. Thanks.
 
May 17, 2004
2,111
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
Racing verse cruising trim

Ross: Actually, there is no difference between racing sail trim and cruising sail trim - there is only a right way or a wrong way. Dennis Conner said that. If I had a boat with a bendable mast (like a J boat) I'd sail it the same way whether I was cruising or racing. Forum listers have told me I'm weird that way but that is the way I sail, play tennis, golf or shoot craps. Can't help myself but that is how I relax. For the beginner to intermediate - I would follow your suggestion and set the mast straight with the forestay and backstay tight and forget about mast bend and forestay sag. Learn how to use all the other sail trim controls first. On the other hand, if you and your buddy are cruising along together, tipping a few Tinney's, believe it or not he secretly wants to edge ahead of you. My wife catches me doing it all the time even though I deny it. If you are both about equal from a sail trim stand point, knowing how to use headstay sag can provide an edge to keep a sailing buddy honest.
 

Grizz

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Jan 13, 2006
179
Hunter 28.5 Park Ridge, IL
And a B & R rig is affected...

...how? Do these concepts fully transfer to this type of rig (which appears to have a bit of both mast bend and rake on my h28.5)? The swept spreaders seem to have a positive impact on upwind performance but I'm leary to ease the split back-stay on downwind legs, especially if I forget to trim it on the next upwind. Any special conditions created by a B & R? Thanks in advance for any input you can provide.
 
Jun 4, 2004
844
Hunter 28.5 Tolchester, MD
28.5 B&R rig

Grizz, There's been a lot of past discussion on the 28.5 site on this specific trim issue particularly relvant to the 'bendy' 28.5 mast and use of a 8:1 or 16:1 backstay adjuster. Don is right that new to intermediate racers should leave the headstay and backstay tight with the mast straight. However, if you want to max the 28.5's performance that backstay adjuster will come in handy in flatening the main and in high pointing mode. Your sailmaker would typically measure and cut a racing mainsail so the luff curve of the main is fits the range of adjustment from your backstay adjuster.
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Don, There is a saying here

If two boats are headed in the same direction and fairly close to each other, the one in front is racing and the one behind is cruising. ;)
 
Oct 25, 2005
735
Catalina 30 Banderas Bay, Mexico
Roller Furling and Forestay Tension

If you have roller furling, remember to put tension in the forestay and jib halyard before you use the furler. Loose forestays and loose halyards are the two most common causes of roller furling problems.
 

Alan

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Jun 2, 2004
4,174
Hunter 35.5 LI, NY
B and R Rigs.....

...present their own particular problem. First off, I would agree with Don and say that if you don't fully understand the significance of headstay tension, leave it alone. I also agree there is no such thing as racing trim. Trim is either right or it isn't. It simply comes down to a matter of how much you personally want to get it right. Fractional boats, in general, have a smaller mast section and flexible masts. This makes them much easier to bend. The rules that apply to bending the mast on a conventional rig do not apply to B&R. The B&R has got a large amount of prebend designed in. Bending the mast further detentions the D1 shrouds which loosens the tension on the rig allowing the mast to tail off to leeward. This is just the opposite of what is needed. The original designs for the B&R rig called for a headstay tensioner which would adjust headstay sag without compromising rig tension. A headstay tensioner would be an expensive option that most folks wont want opt for.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
For the intermediate sailor and above .......

When a new sail is cut, the sailmaker will design in the proper amount of 'luff hollow' to account for and compensate for 'normal' head stay sag and 'may' include the normal amount of mast prebend expected in a precisely tuned rig. This is so that the sail initially 'sets' correctly at the target wind range - typically 15kts when the rig/shrouds are tuned to about 12-15% tension. The simple answer to setting forestay tension and mast bend is: ask the sailmaker what was the shape he originally put into the luff: how many inches of 'luff hollow' for a jib/genoa and how many inches of 'luff bow' for a mainsail!!!!! If you dont know the sailmaker, purchased the sail from an offshore loft, etc. simply lay the sail on a flat surface and with the the luff section fully FLAT on the ground (and the rest of the sail accordian pleated in about 2-3 ft. section on TOP of the luff section) ..... once you are sure that the luff section is FLAT and has NO wrinkles - take a string and stretch it between the head and tack of the sail along the luff and measure the distance between the string and the luff at the widest open section ...... that should be the amount of luff sag you need for 15 kts with a jib/genoa and the amount of mast bend for a mainsail ..... that will determine your 'base' forestay tension / luff sag and mast bend .... from there its all shaping controls to make the sail do what you want to do. If you know the luff hollow from the sialmakers data simply put a small stripe along the luff at the areaa of maximum 'hollow' with draft tape an equal distance back from the luff as the 'hollow' .... makes it easier to see the amount of luff sag with however much backstay/forestay tension is put into the sail. Then your 'eyeball' will better be able to observe when you have the 'design' luff sag for 15kts .... after that its the normal shaping and trimming methods. At least with the above info you now have a 'baseline' from which to operate. For beginners follow Don's advice .... taught backstay and straight mast. hope this helps.
 
May 17, 2004
2,111
Other Catalina 30 Tucson, AZ
B&R rig

I have only sailed on 2 B&R rigged boats so my opinion may be next to worthless but if I owned a boat with that rig I would NOT mess with the mast in any way. I don't think you can anyway but I might be wrong. Even if a B&R owner decided to beer can/club race I still would not mess with it. You can be very competitive by just concentrating on the rest of the sail trim controls for the main and jib. If you master those controls I guarantee you will be at the high end of the middle of the pack and may even pick up a 2nd or 3rd or enven a 1st depending on the skill level of the fleet. If a mate has a backstay adjuster and just has to use it (I did merely because it was there. Personally, on a Catalina boat I would not go out and buy one) here's the extent to which I would use it. Crank on it a little when closehauled and on close reach and then let it off on all other points of sail. Use the back stay adjuster firsts (if you must) and then set the rest of your controls for the jib and mainsail. Always set the jib first on a masthead rig. I can just hear someone saying "so what do I set first on my fractional rig?". If you jib is below a 135 deal with your main first. If it is above a 135 then set the jib first and then the main.
 
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