Forestay Tension vs Halyard

Status
Not open for further replies.
Jan 13, 2012
48
Catalina 30 Steppingstone, NY
Hi,

I recently purchased and am starting to take out a 1980 Catalina 30 tall rig on Long Island Sound.

All is going well and I'm really enjoying the boat. After a couple of sails I've noticed it doesn't point all that well but nothing really terrible. However tonight it was gusty so in addition to the main I took only half of the jib out (self furler) and I really noticed for the first time a significant belly in the luff and the roach luffing more than usual after trimming the sail. In addition while furling (under light tension) it didn't roll up evenly (although better after letting the whole sail out and back in). I'm not experienced enough to "feel" appropriate forestay tension but when I rock it back and forth with the jib rolled up and it does seem like there is ample slack.

SO my question is twofold: 1- is it possible my halyard is the issue or is it more likely slack in the forestay? and 2- if this sounds like a forestay adjustment might be needed is this a 'macro' or 'micro' adjustment as currently the boat is on a mooring.

Also, there is a turnbuckle on the backstay but I don't think there is that much room left with which more tension can be realized. I really don't know much about adjusting shrouds and stays so any general information would be helpful as well :)

Thanks very much,
Alex K.
Steppingstone, NY
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
8,188
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Consider investing in a backstay adjuster. On a masthead rig that is the major headstay tension control. Google "backstay adjuster" to get some ideas. You won't have to change the current backstay wire... just modify it a bit.
 
Jan 6, 2010
1,520
Tensioning

Primetime,

Attached is some info on setting your tension.

You mentioned a new boat for you. If a boat has been sitting long with no use or not properly tensioned, yes you will see it. The halyard is not the issue.

I do use the LOOS tensioner gauges for years and mine is tuned like a piano.

Hope this helps pal........

CR
 

Attachments

Jan 13, 2012
48
Catalina 30 Steppingstone, NY
Re: Tensioning

Hi CR-

Thanks very much, that was very informative.

Two quick questions:

1- how do I measure tension with the Loos Wire Tension Gauge on the headstay with the jib self-furler installed?

2- On a Cat30 with the self furling jib is there a headstay adjustment that can be made under the roller furler? It seems in my reading that most of the adjustment is typically made via a backstay adjuster (and if so can you recommend a very simple one?)

THANKS! (I've also got a call into a local professional rigger)
Alex K.
 
Jan 13, 2012
48
Catalina 30 Steppingstone, NY
Hi Joe, can you recommend a simple (non-hydraulic) backstay adjuster for a split backstay on a Cat 30? Thanks, Alex
 
Jan 6, 2010
1,520
Primetime,

The backstay adjuster is NOT needed if you are are not a racer/sailor pal..
The attachments I forwarded are for info only, but based on your cable size, will work for you. If you do the adjustment, make sure you use circular pins instead of normal cotter pins (these can be re-used). They have a tendency for cutting anckles, snagging foresheet lines etc, and make it harder to replace.

Stu will probably send you more info on tensioning your rigging, he has the best library of info..
He is probably the best source of info on this site, you wil value him as I do.

It's a simple case of tensioning your rigging, And, you will have to do this just like any other maintenance item for sailing.

Send me a PM and we can discuss this at length pal. I've done this for my boat & friends over the years, and I can say, it has worked out great.

Remember, don't OVERTHINK a problem here, there's a simplar course of fix............

CR
 
Jan 22, 2008
405
Catalina 380 16 Rochester NY
Might not be any help. I know rolling up my jib I need to keep some tension on the sheet so it rolls up clean. Also if I understand, you are saying that you can grab the rolled up jib and shake it...it's not as tight as say... the shrouds.

I know mine is not tight and every sailboat on my finger/dock has the same amount of play. Perhaps we are all wrong, but I think the roller foil does not hold the same tension as the mast shrouds or the back stay...

I have a adjustable backstay so that might be the reason, I just want to add my observations.

Chris
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
8,188
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Hi CR-

Thanks very much, that was very informative.

Two quick questions:

1- how do I measure tension with the Loos Wire Tension Gauge on the headstay with the jib self-furler installed?

Alex K.
Primetime... You don't use the tension gauge on the headstay. or the backstay for that matter.(actually you don't even need one at all) There is a tuning guide in the Catalina owners manual........ but here is one from the CNC yachts owner's manual that explains the process way better than my meanderings, and there's no mention of the Loos tool:

Mast Tuning

General Description

To do an effective job of mast tuning, it's important that you understand the principles involved. Let's start with some definitions and explanations. The term 'standing rigging' refers to fixed pieces of stainless steel wire or rod which support the mast. If they offer principally for and aft support, they are called 'stays' (backstay, forestay, etc.). If the support is principally transverse, they are called 'shrouds'.

The shroud which runs from the masthead to a chainplate on the deck near the rail is called the main or upper shroud. If it were to travel this route directly, then the angle of support would be so fine as to induce extreme large tensile forces in the shroud and equally large compressive forces in the mast. To increase this angle of support to the desirable 12 degree or greater, a spreader is inserted approximately half way. This spreader should be angled upwards approximately 5 degrees to bisect the angle formed by the shroud as it bends over the spreader tip. A horizontal spreader or worse still a spreader angled slightly down, is not only unsightly but unseamanlike and dangerous; the spreader may be forced to slip further down the shroud resulting in the loss of the spreader and thus collapse of the mast. The spreader becomes a compressive member and when properly loaded would tend to push the middle of the spar leeward. To avoid the resulting leeward bow, a lower shroud is installed running from the mast at the spreader to the deck near the upper shroud chainplate. Although the principal purpose of the lower shroud is to provide athwartship support, some for and aft support can also be achieved a times by adding two lower shrouds per side, one running forward and the other aft. Therefore, we can have a single spreader rig with single or double lowers. The addition of the spreader and lower shrouds means the mast is now supported at more places transversely than it is fore and aft; and the mast section itself need not be as strong transversely as it does fore and aft. Thus, almost all keel boat masts have a greater fore and aft dimension than transverse.

Spars

It is an obvious extension that the more spreaders and shrouds used transversely, and intermediate forestays and running backstays used longitudinally, the smaller the allowable mast section will be. This can be advantageous as it reduces the weight and windage of the mast, and thus the undesirable influence of the mast on the mainsail. The smaller the mast section, the better the flow over the main. However, to keep such a small section standing would require a complex maze of wires. The spar would be difficult to keep in tune and the running backstays and the intermediate forestays would make tacking difficult. Therefore, except in the case of very sophisticated racing craft with large experienced crews, the rigs have a design that is as simple as possible to reduce the degree of attention required. To reduce the drag of the spar and its detrimental influence on the main, triagular and diamond-shaped sections, and extruded aluminum airfoil spreaders are used.

Some boats have been modified to use solid, high strength, stainless steel rod rigging. Rod has the advantage over the industry standard of stainless steel wire in that it stretches much less for a given size. Therefore, a rig will hold its tune in a much larger range of sailing conditions. Swaged terminals on wire are highly susceptible to stress, corrosion, and freeze cracking when water seeps between the wire and the terminals, whereas rod rigging with its headed terminals are succeptible to neither. The navtang terminal at the spar also reduces the number of pieces involved and eliminates the need for machine screwing the tang to the spar, at the same time reducing windage.

Tuning involves adjusting the tension in these shrouds and stays so that the mast will remain straight under most sailing conditions and at the dock with the desired amount of rake for comfortable helm balance. Tuning involves two phases - tuning at the dock, and tuning while under sail.

Tuning at the Dock

Be sure all turnbuckles are equipped with toggles at their base to eliminate any bending load on the swage and turnbuckle threads. Also see that there is a toggle at both ends of the forestay. As the boat tacks and headsail loading varies from side to side, the forestay terminals experience a much higher fatigue loading.

Start tuning the spar by ensuring that the mast is in the center of the boat, perpendicular to the designed tranverse waterline. Boats often will not sit level at the dock due to the distribution of their accommodation plan and the internal weight or location of crew. So to make sure the mast is plumb transversely, slacken the lower shrouds fully by undoing their turnbuckles. If the spar is stepped through deck, remove the mast wedges as well. Take the main halyard and lead the shackle end to a point on the rail or chainlplate. Adjust the tension in the halyard so that the shackle just touches the rail or chainplate with a given tension, and then cleat the halyard. Take the halyard to the same location on the other side of the deck and with the same tension, the shackle should just touch the rail or chainplate. If not, let off one upper shroud's turnbuckle and take up on the other to bring the masthead closer to centreline until the halyard shackle touches both sides under the same tension. The particular part of the rail or deck you choose as your reference point is not important as long as it is the same point on each side. After the mast is centered transversely, tighten both upper shroud turnbuckles uniformly, one full turn on one side, then one full turn on the other. Repeat until the turnbuckles become difficult to turn. Pin the turnbuckles. Tighten up the lower shroud turnbuckle so that almost all of the slack is removed. That is, the shroud itself should be able to flop about 1" in each direction. Sight up the trailing edge of the spar to make sure that it is still straight.

Now, check your rake. Rake is the for and aft angle of the spar. C&C yachts are designed to carry from 6" of rake on the 24 foot up to about 10" on the 38 foot. Some sailmakers prefer no rake at all; that is a perfectly plumb spar, but from an appearance point of view, as well as helm balance point of view, begin using the measurements mentioned above.

Forward rake should be avoided. Again, use the main halyard to check the amount of rake. Wait for a reasonably calm day and hang a weight, such as a hammer, a wrench or even a bucket of water, from the main halyard at approximately gooseneck level. The fore and aft distance between the halyard and the mast at the gooseneck is the amount of rake. Ease off the forestay turnbuckle and tighten up on the backstay turnbuckle or vice versa until the desired rake is achieved. Now, pin the forestay turnbuckle and the backstay turnbuckle. Unless the rake has to be re-adjusted in the future to correct the helm balance, these will need no more adjusting. Any additional tensioning can be applied by the backstay adjuster.

Reinstall the mast wedges if the mast is stepped through deck and pin the other turnbuckles.

At this time, check that the outboard end of the spreaders are taped and padded to avoid wear and tear on the genoas when tacking.

You now are ready to go sailing to complete the tuning procedure.

Tuning While Sailing

Select a pleasant sunny day with a steady 8 to 12 knots of breeze. Put the boat on a starboard tack, close hauled. Sight up the luff groove of the spar. If the mast seems to fall off to leeward at the spreaders, luff up slightly and tighten the starboard lower shroud a couple of turns. Put the boat back on the wind and check the spar again. When the mast appears straight, put the boat about and do the same on the port side. Check the following carefully. First, if the upper shrouds are at optimum tension, when at about 15 to 20 degrees of heel, the leeward rigging should begin to look slack. This is quite natural and should never be tightened. Secondly, when close hauled under genoa and main, the forestay will appear quite sagged. Tensioning the backstay will reduce the amount of say, but the sag itself can never be eliminated. As a rule of thumb, the maximum static backstay pressure should not exceed one-quarter the backstay breaking strength.

If your boat is equipped with double lowers, the forward lower shrouds should be tightened marginally more than the aft lowers to encourage a bit of a forward bow to the mast. This forward bow is conteracted by the luff of the mainsail and the aft lowers. Aft bow should not be allowed. It destroys the sail shape and is countered only by the forward lower shrouds. If you find that the mast, whether or not you have double or single lowers, tends to bow aft rather than forward under backstay tension, the problem may then lie in your mast step. For example, if the mast is resting on its forward end, it may tend to bow aft. Therefore, to correct this situation, wedge up the after part of the heel to encourage a forward bow.

Chainplates may seat and the rigging may stretch to the extent that tuning from scratch will be necessary in a matter of weeks. However, after this initial working-in period, you will find that your boat tends to hold this tune for fairly long periods of time. After becoming used to the feel of the boat, you may wish to either increase or decrease the amount of 'weather helm' - that is, the amount of feel on the tiller. Any sailboat, when going upwind, should have a tendency to 'round up' slightly or head ino the wind if you let go of the helm. However, if you're constantly fighting the boat in order to hold her off the wind, you have too much weather helm. This can be alleviated by taking some rake out of the spar; i.e., raking the spar further forward, and thus moving the centre of the effort of the sailplan further forward. If you find when sailing upwind that the boat tends to fall off the wind and you are constantly having to push her to weather, then you probably have lee helm. This can be overcome by putting a bit more rake into the spar.

With constant tuning as the season progresses, your boat performance will improve. The boat will beel more comfortable to sail. You will find that tuning is a bit of an art; you will begin to notice subtle changes in the behaviour and response of your boat as you make subtle changes in tuning. The important thing to remember is to go about things in a slow and orderly fashion, and before you make any change, make sure it makes sense in your own mind.

REPRINTED FROM C&C OWNERS' MANUAL - JUNE 30, 1976
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
8,188
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Hi Joe, can you recommend a simple (non-hydraulic) backstay adjuster for a split backstay on a Cat 30? Thanks, Alex
Primetime... first of all... there should be a turnbuckle under the furler ..somewhere...

Regarding backstay adjusters....... take a look at the ronstan and harken sites for ideas.... essentially you will need a 6 to 1 or greater purchase system tied into the shortened backstay.. Some are pretty complicated looking... but don't get overwhelmed.. on my boat I have the old style wheel..... which is okay but not that quick to adust... but it works for me.

Hey.... you can take Captrons advice, forgetting the adjuster and permanently set the thing with the turnbuckle..... but, uh, it isn't only racers who use them.... lots of normal daysailing yahoos like myself enjoy the options they offer.... just like a boom vang.... you don't really need it .... but it's much better if you have it.
 

Attachments

Mar 11, 2010
292
Catalina Tall Rig/ Fin Keel Deale, MD
Prime,
Our experience with baggy, 1984 vintage sails means we have to lessen headstay sag, the best we can, in most conditions. The first year we just sailed the boat to learn the ropes (literally). Our rigger advised to get the mast straight and in column, but not too tight, due to the age of the boat. The first winter, we put the boat on the hard, replaced the bilge and post ply with G-10, redid the bottom, installed all new standing rigging and were able to firm up the shrouds a little more. That year, the boat was driving 100% better, much stiffer, but with the same sails, still not "all up". Higher wind speeds (10+) and the baggy sail's deeper draft puts on even more headstay sag. The headsail's efficiency just worsens. We use a "vang" type, fiddleblock/cam cleat setup to pull down on our backstay bridle in order to increase backstay tension and reduce headstay sag. The C-30 mast tip does not move aft much, so original length on the headstay is more of a factor. We don't have a turnbuckle on the headstay. Light air days, choppy waves, downwind angles and back at the marina at the end of the day, are when we ease. I know we will have a keener appreciation for the new sails when we get to purchase them (one day). Dealing with headstay sag will become more like it's really intended - a fine tune tool for maximum trim. As for the furler, do get the luff hoist tight and do keep one hand tensioning the sheet as you furl in.
Rob
IMG_0203.jpg
 
Last edited:

jrowan

.
Mar 5, 2011
1,294
O'Day 35 Severn River, Mobjack Bay, Va.
I also have a C 30 1980 era boat. They are all pretty much the same from 1980 to 1986 era. But you have a tall rig, & presumably a bow sprit. I would assume that the wooden bowsprit allows for more flexing in the forestay due to the stay being secured to the wooden sprit. My boat came with a backstay adjuster which is a rope line attached to the spilt backstays at the split point running into a traveller type block to allow for better purchase when hauling in. My adjuster was already set pretty tight, so I leave it in that position. I would have a Pro rigger evaluate your standing rigging if it is original before modiying it to accept a backstay adjuster. You will be adding significantly increased loads on all of those old fittings, cable stays, and turnbuckles which are presumably 32 years old. If there are any parts that appear rusted, corroded, frayed wires at termianls, seized turnbuckles that are solid type then consider replacing them. The solid body turnbuckles that came with the boat allow for hidden crevice corrosion & tend to lock up. I would put money into these before considering stressing an old rig with an backstay adjuster. I have known some boats to actually have the forestay pulled out from the stern chainplate because of over torgeu-ing a hydraulic backstay.

As far as your furling genoa, they are not efficient when partially furled, unless your sail has a padded luff strip to take up some of the bagginess of the sail at the center when partially furled. The padding allows the center to roll up tighter mid way. If your sails are original then this is where performace suffers. New sails will make a world of difference. I have UK Halsey sails which were a replacement in the mid 90's. Even being 15 yers old they perform much better then the original Catalina sails ever did.
My advice is to spend a couple of bucks to have a Pro rigger come & evaluate your boat.
The only way to inspect the rigging is from up the mast in a bosuns chair. If he finds major faults then it will have certainly been worth it, as one failed fitting could cost you your rig. One more piece of advice: if you have the original wooden spreaders also have them inspected & consider replacement to aluminum airfoil type. If they crack from wear of the spruce wood they will cause the mast to topple. This is on my to do list, as also in most C 30's of our vintage.
She's a great boat, very forgiving just treat her with respect as she's not a spring chicken anymore. Cheers.
 

Attachments

Mar 11, 2010
292
Catalina Tall Rig/ Fin Keel Deale, MD
JR, you got some backstay ON, bro! (we use the same type of rigging). Another eyeball check for mast in column is sighting up the mainsail luff track. You want to see no "S" waggle or bowing towards port or starboard when looking up the track (mainsail down). You still want to measure with the halyard (or steel tape measure that doesn't stretch), too.

Rob
 

jrowan

.
Mar 5, 2011
1,294
O'Day 35 Severn River, Mobjack Bay, Va.
Yes Rob, your right. The P.O. did a lil' bit of hauling in on that backstay adjuster!
I've left it taught, becuse the rigging appears to be in pretty good shape, as stated by my rigger. I'm also concerned that if I relax it now, the performance will suffer & the forestay will sag. My ol' 1980 era C 30 still moves pretty good with a stiff breeze,
so its hard to fix it, if its not broken (or until it breaks!). The only point that I question is the integrity of the blocks built into the adjuster and the steel ring the they are all fixed to. Although if the adjuster ever failed, I figure that that it would just release all the tension on the back stay. My mast column appears to be straight, but I do perform a regular check of the rigging before we ever go out. I think this is a good practice.
I don't assume that everything is fine when I've been gone from the boat for several weeks. I especially look hard with binoculars at the beginning of the season & after storms.
 
Jan 13, 2012
48
Catalina 30 Steppingstone, NY
Thanks very much to everyone for sharing their thoughts and experience related to the standing rigging and backstay/headstay tension. Things are much clearer now. I am now going to initiate a new post on the traveler! -PrimeTime
 
Status
Not open for further replies.