Hi, I've noticed that my forestay arches to leeward quite a bit when close hauled. Experienced "performance" sailors tell me this is affecting pointing ability and boat speed. I have a standard issue, hanked on jib (no furling gear). At the start of each season, the rig is tightened according to the H260 manual, with proper rake, mast straight and tension in the shrouds. Based on input from club members and on the HOW site, I purchased a Loos Guage and measured the tension. Sure enough, the stays were not nearly as tight as indicated in the Loos guage instructions. My intention is not to go quite as tight as specified, but closer. I ran out of forestay adjustment before getting close. I can't recall the tension measurement, but I took out almost 1/2 inch of forestay length. So here are the questions: 1. The forestay still falls off considerably, in fact I can't see an improvement. Is this normal for B&R rig? 2How much difference will it really make? 3. Is the next step to tighten the upper shrouds? 4. Does the forestay need to be shortened? Thank you for any advise. Fair winds, Tom
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You've done it wrong
The forstay is NOT lengthened or shortened to adjust it's tension, that adjusts the RAKE. The upper shrouds and backstay adjust the forestay tension.
The forstay is NOT lengthened or shortened to adjust it's tension, that adjusts the RAKE. The upper shrouds and backstay adjust the forestay tension.
Similar Problem Here
Allan is right - forestay tension is controlled by tensioning the upper sidestays. You may want to look closely at the rigging sketch in your ownners manual. On the h26 (not sure about the 260)the upper/lower sidestays cross-over before attaching at the u-bolts. That is, they are not supposed to run parallel and attach to where you think they would. I only discovered this this past season and the inch or so change made quite a difference in the amount of tension I could get on the shrouds. Having said this, I still cannot get close to the tension #'s in the Loos manual before running out of adjustment and I still have some sag in the forestay. This winter I plan to carefully measure the rigging vs. specs and perhaps have a rigger shorten the forestay slightly. I have CDI furling that was installed prior to my ownership, so my situation is not the same as yours.
Allan is right - forestay tension is controlled by tensioning the upper sidestays. You may want to look closely at the rigging sketch in your ownners manual. On the h26 (not sure about the 260)the upper/lower sidestays cross-over before attaching at the u-bolts. That is, they are not supposed to run parallel and attach to where you think they would. I only discovered this this past season and the inch or so change made quite a difference in the amount of tension I could get on the shrouds. Having said this, I still cannot get close to the tension #'s in the Loos manual before running out of adjustment and I still have some sag in the forestay. This winter I plan to carefully measure the rigging vs. specs and perhaps have a rigger shorten the forestay slightly. I have CDI furling that was installed prior to my ownership, so my situation is not the same as yours.
Same problem on my '94 Tim.
I believe that the forestay is supposed to be shortened when the CDI unit is placed as the attachment point is higher up than the origional attachment. My shrouds are also parallel and not crossed. So I plan on switching them first before shortening the forestay. So far I have procrastinated a year. Alan the Hunter 26 does not have a backstay (B&R rig). alan
I believe that the forestay is supposed to be shortened when the CDI unit is placed as the attachment point is higher up than the origional attachment. My shrouds are also parallel and not crossed. So I plan on switching them first before shortening the forestay. So far I have procrastinated a year. Alan the Hunter 26 does not have a backstay (B&R rig). alan
tuning
The forestay lenght is really to adjust fpr the rake as Alan mentioned. The tuning is in the shrouds. I do not use tension guages as an old salty sea dog taought me a trick. The uppers when properly tuned should move only 1-1 1/2 inches with two fingers (no thumb) pulling inward with the hand being stationary. I have done well with this over the years and usually am right on the mark.. Crazy Dave Condon
The forestay lenght is really to adjust fpr the rake as Alan mentioned. The tuning is in the shrouds. I do not use tension guages as an old salty sea dog taought me a trick. The uppers when properly tuned should move only 1-1 1/2 inches with two fingers (no thumb) pulling inward with the hand being stationary. I have done well with this over the years and usually am right on the mark.. Crazy Dave Condon
Yea, but if the forestay is too long then it won't
work. My uppers are as tight as I dare causing the mast to be raked back more than spec and my forestay is loose with no more room to adjust. alan
work. My uppers are as tight as I dare causing the mast to be raked back more than spec and my forestay is loose with no more room to adjust. alan
Hang about!
Because really you may need to go back to step one. Get the yacht dead level. One good way to do this is to take your spirit level with you when you next launch. Once the yacht has settled down place the spirit level on a section of the yacht (I put mine along the side of the sliding hatch on the 260)and mark where the bubble is with a pen. When you get her back home set the trailer so that the spirit bubble is exactly the same as when she's floating. Loosen the rigging. 1) Set the rake! Get the main halyard and hang a weight ( an adjustable spanner is good) so that it hangs about an inch above the boom (that should be fitted)The distance from the aft side of the mast to the halyard where the boom sits should be about 4-5 inches. The forestay is adjusted to get this and once it is done in my opinion you should insert the split pins in the turnbuckle and leave it be. 2) Adjust the mast with the upper shrouds to get it central (port to starboard). One this is done wind up th uppers untill you get the desired tension. Daves way of doing it is excellent. Besides how many of us are going to enter our yacht in the next Sydney Hobart. 3) Once these are wound up evenly wind up the lowers so that they are slightly less than the uppers. Site up the mast and make sure it is straight and adjust lowers if needed. 3) Take her for a sail and adjust the upper and lower shrouds "evenly" if they seem loose on the lee side. Tack back and adjust the other side the same. The other thing that (and should be done before setting all of the above) is very important for sail shape is the "at rest" bend in the mast. By this I mean before the mast is stepped how much bend is in it when it is lying down. The general rule is about 2% of the distance between the boom and mast tip should be the bend. Attach the main halyard to the ram horns and tape the halyard hard against the mast. Tighten the halyard but not to much. Half way to the top measure between the mast and the halyard. If it is not about 2% adjust the reverse diagonals evenly to achieve this. As a matter of interest on our 260 we have to use conciderable force on the mainsheet to bring the forestay down to the bow fitting. Our forestay does fall off a bit but as mentioned we "Are not entering her in the Sydney Hobart"
Hope this long winded explanation helps. Regards
Because really you may need to go back to step one. Get the yacht dead level. One good way to do this is to take your spirit level with you when you next launch. Once the yacht has settled down place the spirit level on a section of the yacht (I put mine along the side of the sliding hatch on the 260)and mark where the bubble is with a pen. When you get her back home set the trailer so that the spirit bubble is exactly the same as when she's floating. Loosen the rigging. 1) Set the rake! Get the main halyard and hang a weight ( an adjustable spanner is good) so that it hangs about an inch above the boom (that should be fitted)The distance from the aft side of the mast to the halyard where the boom sits should be about 4-5 inches. The forestay is adjusted to get this and once it is done in my opinion you should insert the split pins in the turnbuckle and leave it be. 2) Adjust the mast with the upper shrouds to get it central (port to starboard). One this is done wind up th uppers untill you get the desired tension. Daves way of doing it is excellent. Besides how many of us are going to enter our yacht in the next Sydney Hobart. 3) Once these are wound up evenly wind up the lowers so that they are slightly less than the uppers. Site up the mast and make sure it is straight and adjust lowers if needed. 3) Take her for a sail and adjust the upper and lower shrouds "evenly" if they seem loose on the lee side. Tack back and adjust the other side the same. The other thing that (and should be done before setting all of the above) is very important for sail shape is the "at rest" bend in the mast. By this I mean before the mast is stepped how much bend is in it when it is lying down. The general rule is about 2% of the distance between the boom and mast tip should be the bend. Attach the main halyard to the ram horns and tape the halyard hard against the mast. Tighten the halyard but not to much. Half way to the top measure between the mast and the halyard. If it is not about 2% adjust the reverse diagonals evenly to achieve this. As a matter of interest on our 260 we have to use conciderable force on the mainsheet to bring the forestay down to the bow fitting. Our forestay does fall off a bit but as mentioned we "Are not entering her in the Sydney Hobart"
Hope this long winded explanation helps. RegardsForestay Adjustment
We have also worried about the forestay tension. We use a Harken furling system, & I finally decided to take it off to get to the bottom of this issue. We were able to gain a couple of inches by fully tightening & then shortening the bolts in the turnbuckle: by cutting them off slightly, we could use the full length of the threads on each. As well, we shortened the length of the U-shackle at the very bottom end of the forestay & gained another 3/8th of an inch. This may not seem like a lot, but it was enough of a difference when the shrouds were properly tensioned to get the boat properly balanced. I am running the lowers at 520 lbs & the uppers at 620. For most of the summer,I had been operating at approximately 100 lbs less on each set. With this increase in pressure, we made a major impact on decreasing weather helm. One final point: I picked up Don Guillette's Sail Trim User's Guide. Finally, with a bit of guidance & 3 years of our own experience, we are starting to understand the Hunter 26's balance, trim & reefing parameters. In spite of our earlier pessimism, by perservering, we have a new-found appreciation for the water ballast design. Rick s/v MoonGlow
We have also worried about the forestay tension. We use a Harken furling system, & I finally decided to take it off to get to the bottom of this issue. We were able to gain a couple of inches by fully tightening & then shortening the bolts in the turnbuckle: by cutting them off slightly, we could use the full length of the threads on each. As well, we shortened the length of the U-shackle at the very bottom end of the forestay & gained another 3/8th of an inch. This may not seem like a lot, but it was enough of a difference when the shrouds were properly tensioned to get the boat properly balanced. I am running the lowers at 520 lbs & the uppers at 620. For most of the summer,I had been operating at approximately 100 lbs less on each set. With this increase in pressure, we made a major impact on decreasing weather helm. One final point: I picked up Don Guillette's Sail Trim User's Guide. Finally, with a bit of guidance & 3 years of our own experience, we are starting to understand the Hunter 26's balance, trim & reefing parameters. In spite of our earlier pessimism, by perservering, we have a new-found appreciation for the water ballast design. Rick s/v MoonGlow
NONONONO WRONG
you've got it ALL wrong!! The length of the forstay determines the RAKE, period. The amount you tension the upper shrouds and backstay will determine how much headstay TENSION there will be. One has NOTHING to do with the other. To measure shroud tension accurately you will need to invest in a Loos Guage, and it's well worth having to properly tuning your rig! North Shore Alan
you've got it ALL wrong!! The length of the forstay determines the RAKE, period. The amount you tension the upper shrouds and backstay will determine how much headstay TENSION there will be. One has NOTHING to do with the other. To measure shroud tension accurately you will need to invest in a Loos Guage, and it's well worth having to properly tuning your rig! North Shore Alan
Communication Problems
Alan: I am not sure I understand the disagreement. Too much mast Rake and weather helm have a lot to do with each other. Most of the reviews on the Hunter 26 or 260 that I have read complain about the forestay being too long, & thus the Rake is too far aft. There is no other way to fix this problem other than to shorten the forestay & increase the shroud tension. By the way, I got the measurements meantioned in my message from a Loos Tension Guage. What do you think is so wrong about this approach? Rick
Alan: I am not sure I understand the disagreement. Too much mast Rake and weather helm have a lot to do with each other. Most of the reviews on the Hunter 26 or 260 that I have read complain about the forestay being too long, & thus the Rake is too far aft. There is no other way to fix this problem other than to shorten the forestay & increase the shroud tension. By the way, I got the measurements meantioned in my message from a Loos Tension Guage. What do you think is so wrong about this approach? Rick
Lost me! How are you going Tom?
As mentioned the forestay length is set for the correct amount of rake. The uppers and lowers adjust tension. The reverse diagonals adjust mast pre-bend. And thats that! Tom if your rake is correct & your shrouds are tensioned then there is nothing elso you can do. Went for a sail at the weekend on the 260 and yes our forestay gives a bit and we have heaps of tension on the shrouds. Took out our other yacht and yep the forestay gives a bit.
As mentioned the forestay length is set for the correct amount of rake. The uppers and lowers adjust tension. The reverse diagonals adjust mast pre-bend. And thats that! Tom if your rake is correct & your shrouds are tensioned then there is nothing elso you can do. Went for a sail at the weekend on the 260 and yes our forestay gives a bit and we have heaps of tension on the shrouds. Took out our other yacht and yep the forestay gives a bit.
We do not have a meeting of the minds!
The configurations of the Hunter 26 and 260 are a little different. The Hunter 26 and 260 do NOT have back stays and they are both fractional rigs. Rake is adjusted by shroud (sidestay,uppers) tension and forestay tension as there is no backstay. The spreaders on these boats are swept back which produces a rearward/sideways directed tension when the shrouds (sidestays, whatever) are tightened. This also produces some tension on the forestay as the mast head is pulled back. There is a well known problem on the 26. When a CDI roller furler is placed, it's drum needs to be extended above the normal mounting location of the forestay by metal brackets so that the drum does not rub on a stemhead fitting. The stock forestay is attached to the furling drum. If I wrote this correctly then one realizes that the forestay has been effectively lengthened by the length of the metal brackets. On my boat the length of the metal bracket extension exceeds the adjustment available in the turnbuckles on the forestay. So my forestay is too long and too loose and my mast is raked too rearward. Think I got this right. comments? Disclaimer, I am not an expert. alan, not to be confused with Alan of The North shore :>)
The configurations of the Hunter 26 and 260 are a little different. The Hunter 26 and 260 do NOT have back stays and they are both fractional rigs. Rake is adjusted by shroud (sidestay,uppers) tension and forestay tension as there is no backstay. The spreaders on these boats are swept back which produces a rearward/sideways directed tension when the shrouds (sidestays, whatever) are tightened. This also produces some tension on the forestay as the mast head is pulled back. There is a well known problem on the 26. When a CDI roller furler is placed, it's drum needs to be extended above the normal mounting location of the forestay by metal brackets so that the drum does not rub on a stemhead fitting. The stock forestay is attached to the furling drum. If I wrote this correctly then one realizes that the forestay has been effectively lengthened by the length of the metal brackets. On my boat the length of the metal bracket extension exceeds the adjustment available in the turnbuckles on the forestay. So my forestay is too long and too loose and my mast is raked too rearward. Think I got this right. comments? Disclaimer, I am not an expert. alan, not to be confused with Alan of The North shore :>)
No no no no no no no etc etc etc!
The degree of rake "is" set by the length of your forestay. Shrouds "do not" induce rake! However lots and lots of pressure on them will give some mast bend "which" is different to rake. Bloody hell these fractional rigs cause some grief. But it is in good spirit and lots of fun is had by all!
The degree of rake "is" set by the length of your forestay. Shrouds "do not" induce rake! However lots and lots of pressure on them will give some mast bend "which" is different to rake. Bloody hell these fractional rigs cause some grief. But it is in good spirit and lots of fun is had by all!
the expert now speaks again
Ok, I am going to make some folks mad. But lets end this discussion. The rake is determined by the forestay. Then you tension the standing rigging by the shrouds. The forestay length is longer on the older Hunter 26 but if it was attached to the deck like the new 260, it would be the same length. I have found sometimes the forestay when originally made may have been too long and I had to shorten it before installing on the boat most notalblbly the 26 if you had installed furling. Please no more discussion. Kapish Crazy Dave Condon
Ok, I am going to make some folks mad. But lets end this discussion. The rake is determined by the forestay. Then you tension the standing rigging by the shrouds. The forestay length is longer on the older Hunter 26 but if it was attached to the deck like the new 260, it would be the same length. I have found sometimes the forestay when originally made may have been too long and I had to shorten it before installing on the boat most notalblbly the 26 if you had installed furling. Please no more discussion. Kapish Crazy Dave Condon
Thank you all..
Thank you all for the help with this issue. On the B&R rig, the forestay and upper shrouds tension adjustements are interdependant. I noticed that as the forestay was tightend, the upper shrouds were placed under greater tension -- as one would expect, because the shrouds are the opposing force (fore and aft) for the forestay. Likewise, for a B&R rig, the mast rake is going to balance (not proportionaly, due to different angles to mast) between the forestay and upper shrouds. Tightening upper shrouds will move rake aft a bit, tightening forestay will move rake forward a bit. The change in mast rake by tightening the forestay by 1/2 inch or less to tune the rig tension is negligable and would be offset by tightening the upper shrouds, too. Fair winds, Tom
Thank you all for the help with this issue. On the B&R rig, the forestay and upper shrouds tension adjustements are interdependant. I noticed that as the forestay was tightend, the upper shrouds were placed under greater tension -- as one would expect, because the shrouds are the opposing force (fore and aft) for the forestay. Likewise, for a B&R rig, the mast rake is going to balance (not proportionaly, due to different angles to mast) between the forestay and upper shrouds. Tightening upper shrouds will move rake aft a bit, tightening forestay will move rake forward a bit. The change in mast rake by tightening the forestay by 1/2 inch or less to tune the rig tension is negligable and would be offset by tightening the upper shrouds, too. Fair winds, Tom
Does all this hold true for other Hunter models?
I have a hunter 290 and my forestay is also loose. Would I also tighten the forestay by adjusting the tension on the shrouds?
I have a hunter 290 and my forestay is also loose. Would I also tighten the forestay by adjusting the tension on the shrouds?
Clear as mud?
Again there are posts about adjusting the forestay. "THE ONLY TIME YOU ADJUST THE FORESTAY IS TO ALTER RAKE. NO OTHER TIME" You set the rake of your mast with the forestay and put the pins in. Then adjust the rigging but don't touch the bloody forestasy again. Winding up the shrouds of course will put tension on the forestay but "DO NOT TOUCH IT AGAIN" PERIOD FULL STOP!! Exactly the same as when you have a foil!
Again there are posts about adjusting the forestay. "THE ONLY TIME YOU ADJUST THE FORESTAY IS TO ALTER RAKE. NO OTHER TIME" You set the rake of your mast with the forestay and put the pins in. Then adjust the rigging but don't touch the bloody forestasy again. Winding up the shrouds of course will put tension on the forestay but "DO NOT TOUCH IT AGAIN" PERIOD FULL STOP!! Exactly the same as when you have a foil!
Have forestay shortened.
Put a CDI on my 26 a couple of weeks ago. Took stay to marina and had in shortened by the 5.5 inches needed to get the drum clear of the deck. Had a shop make a metal spacer that, with the fasteners needed, makes up for the shorter stay. Is your jib short enough to still fit on shortened CDI?
Put a CDI on my 26 a couple of weeks ago. Took stay to marina and had in shortened by the 5.5 inches needed to get the drum clear of the deck. Had a shop make a metal spacer that, with the fasteners needed, makes up for the shorter stay. Is your jib short enough to still fit on shortened CDI?
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