Following Jessica Watson ...

Levin · Dec 8, 2009

Missing the point...

Hello again...

Anyway I think this discussion has completely missed the point of the question I originally asked (now mind you I get the irony of me complaining about someone hijacking a thread I myself hijacked earlier).

Now what I was hoping to discuss is whether or not we can consider Jessica's voyage "unaided" given all the assistance she is getting at a distance. (oh and BTW Joe... did you really bust my chops over using "unassisted" rather than "unaided"... I mean really? Is that the point we've gotten to in this discussion?).

My vote is still no, mostly because I think she is very aided through having her course planned for her, having her meals packed for her, having people tell her where to go, having people there to trouble shoot any problem she has... which all sounds like a lot of aid to me. Yet like I said in my last post I realize this is a slippery slope, and I wonder where we should draw the line on the aided thing. As technology improves the ability to be there at a distance with people will only increase. Already through services like Skype we can see where others are and what is going on around them through the computer rather than just hear their voice... who knows in time we might be able to virtually walk around in another's environment as well. Which means as technology improves we get closer and closer to be able to all but be with another person at a distance. When this happens we might not be able to manipulate anything in their environment (i.e. reef the sails for them) but we can almost stand there and give them step-by-step instructions on exactly what to do and troubleshoot anything that comes up. Which makes the argument for "unaided" harder and harder to come by… especially as technology continues to improve.

Now I'm not arguing whether or not I would want all these things available to Jessica if she was my daughter, or even if she should have these things for safety's sake... just if we can consider her journey “unaided” when she has all of them... In my mind as technology continues to improve the idea of “solo sailing” anywhere becomes harder and harder to claim.

So what does everyone think about this very narrow question?

Take care,
-Levin

Stu Jackson · Dec 8, 2009

Levin said:
My vote is still no, mostly because I think she is very aided

In my mind as technology continues to improve the idea of “solo sailing” anywhere becomes harder and harder to claim.

So what does everyone think about this very narrow question?

I think it's a very good question.

"Solo" to me means doing it yourself. Sure, folks help you with provisioning, but you leave with a dependence on you alone, with perhaps input from the outside via technology (VHF, GPS). But you make the decisions, not "let's call home and ask how to change the fuel filters and when I should do that..." kinda stuff. I'm not saying she's doing this, and I checked her blog right after she left the second time, and not since.

It would be interesting to a) compare the "ye olden daze" sailors like Robin on Dove, and all the way to Tania, vs this journey in terms of "outside assistance" and b) start a list of technological marvels like long distance phones and emails.

From a purely engineering analytical point of view one would require a list of items to be able to answer the question. Maybe there's also a separation of "passive" (GPS) vs "Active" (Sat phones) technology.

PS - A synonym for aid is assist in Microsoft Word.

Sumner · Dec 8, 2009

Levin said:
.........So what does everyone think about this very narrow question?...........

All the phones, gps, advice..........packed lunches, etc. means nothing when it comes down to the minute the sh*t hits the fan and you are there alone or even not alone and have to deal with it. We had that happen to us on our last trip and still the worst that might of happened to us would of been we would of lost the boat and had to get up on land and find someway of getting someones attention on the lake.

She is absolutely in the middle of nowhere headed to one of the most dangerous places to sail on this planet "by herself". If she gets knocked down, looses the mast or looses the boat and possibly her life all of the things you are mentioning as 'aided' or 'assisted' become irrelevant. I guess what is the point of belaboring the question. Either you respect and give her credit for what she is doing or you don't or you are somewhere in between.

One thing for certain is technology, our knowledge and the ability to use both of those will never stand still, so you have to constantly put things into perspective and rate it on it's on value.

Personally I'm rooting for her and following her progress, but don't think she should be there. This is too dangerous of a situation for a 16 year old to make a decision if it should be undertaken. I don't respect her family for putting her in this position. In my opinion the rewards don't outweigh the risks. If she was in her 20's it would be a different deal. If she is successful someone else will send their 14 or 15 year old on the same journey.

Just some thoughts,

Sum

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Ed Schenck · Dec 8, 2009

Still with all that has been "discussed(?)" I think about how I feel when offshore. With the VHF, HAM backup, a SPOT, GPS, backup GPS laptop with charts, three weather sources, and usually within cellphone distance, there is still "uncertainty". It was cold and dark, the boat was surfing over 8, we were crossing shipping channels wondering which end of the vessel to cross.

But I also had the advantage of being within eight hours of an inlet. And probably two or three hours away from a Coast Guard vessel. A huge difference I think.

Jessica is sailing a very small boat into the unknown. She will know when the weather is going to turn. But unlike for most of us she can only prepare for it, not duck it. Around the Horn will definitely be unaided and/or unassisted.

Rick Sylvester · Dec 8, 2009

Yup, Levin's right

there's definitely a lot of point missing going on here.

I do have a problem with the nature of whatever assistance or aid might be given to Jessica underway while claiming that her voyage is unassisted. I'm not going to argue semantics here and I believe that training and support before shoving off is another bailiwick.

If the solo sailor's critical decisions underway are supplanted by those of another then you are being aided and/or assisted (IMHO.)

For example, receiving weather data underway and using that data to make your own decisions about your route is fundamentally different from someone else doing your routing for you.

When a piece of gear breaks, getting data, whether from a book or a sat-phone matters not as long as the sailor is doing the trouble-shooting and decision-making and not being supplanted by the soothing voice of some guru on a digital connection.

Oh, and by the way, I doubt anybody here wishes Jessica ill will or harm. Nobody here believes her excursion is unremarkable. I hope she succeeds safely. I imagine everyone on this board does too so I hope no one is insinuating otherwise. It would be grotesque and untrue.

The points I bring up are the same for anyone who goes around alone and claims to be unassisted. It's not about Jessica (specifically.) I'm sure the governing body that will decide as to whether her voyage counts as the youngest (or whatever) has all the rules of such things written down somewhere and with all due respect to Joe, I haven't read them. However, even if I had, an organization saying something is so doesn't necessarily make it so.

Hence, the discussions here. As some have stated, it's a fine line and we may not ever be able to put our finger on it, but hey, it sure makes for an energetic thread.

Ross · Dec 8, 2009

Re: Yup, Levin's right

In this age of communications where do we draw a line? I have friends who call me with questions concerning house repairs. I talk them through the problem. They do the work. If Jessica suffers a laceration she can send a picture of the wound to her support team and get a doctor's advise on how best to deal with the treatment. She has to keep her wits about her and do the job.

I feel a bit responsible for the direction this thread has taken because of my suggestion that Tanya Abei's circumnavigation was a more difficult trip because of the state of the art of electronics. In figure skating they award points for the performance and for the degree of difficulty. Also remember that Tanya didn't make the Slocum list because she had a companion for a couple of hundred miles.

Is there a difference between finding a solution to a problem by careful study of the books written by an expert and asking that same expert for verbal assistance? This will never be a matter of,"Step aside girl,. I'll show you how it is done!" Her passage will be filled with thoughtful discussions of problems and their solutions.

There was a young Japanese man(boy?) who crossed the pacific singlehanded. He made the passage with no serious trouble but his boat was a complete housekeeping wreak when he arrived. I had a son like that. He could have crossed an ocean but he was a slob about taking care of his space and equipment. Somehow I think that Jessica will arrive on a boat that is tidy and shipshape.

Joe · Dec 8, 2009

No one's missing the point....

Levin said:
Now what I was hoping to discuss is whether or not we can consider Jessica's voyage "unaided" given all the assistance she is getting at a distance. (oh and BTW Joe... did you really bust my chops over using "unassisted" rather than "unaided"... I mean really? Is that the point we've gotten to in this discussion?).

Yes, Levin, I did....... because your complaint is based on a misunderstanding of what "unassisted" or "without assisted" means in the solo circumnavigator's world.

Here is an excerpt from a article written shortly before Jessica started her journey: ....

“Without assistance” means that a vessel may not receive any kind of outside help or take on board any supplies, materials or equipment during the attempt. A craft may be anchored or beached during the attempt, but any repairs must be made without outside resources, materials or help...........

Here is a link to the entire article.... I hope you take the time to read it, then I'd enjoy your comments. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/206767-aussie-girl-16-to-attempt-solo-circumnavigation

Joe

Ross · Dec 8, 2009

Re: Actually, I think I'm fascinated because ...

If at times she isn't scared then she is stupid and I haven't seen anything to support that idea. Scared is good it makes adrenalin flow.

Rick Sylvester · Dec 8, 2009

Okay, I broke down and did a little research

and Joe, if you're going to take Levin to task for his 'misunderstandings' you may want to provide a link other than to a puff article by an AP sports writer. I must confess that I was tempted to click on the accompanying link about "Hot Gymnasts And The Wonderful Things They Can Do With Their Bodies."

I'd suggest maybe a link to the World Sailing Speed Record Council instead.

http://www.sailspeedrecords.com/

It turns out that the WSSRC is the only organization recognized by the International Sailing Federation for things like this (being the fastest, youngest, oldest, ugliest or whatever, while sailing a specific course.)

It turns out that your quoted definition is pretty much the same as that which was presumably lifted by Mr. AP writer.

According to the WRSSC 'without assistance' means that a vessel may not receive any kind of outside assistance whatever except for 21.h. and 21. i. nor take on board any supplies (beyond the harvest of the sea), materials or equipment during an attempt. A vessel may be anchored or beached during the attempt, but any repairs must be made entirely by the crew without outside resources or materials. It is never permitted to take on board stores or equipment or get any other kind of help from another vessel whilst under way (except as 'i' Emergencies below).

Perhaps most germane to some of our posts here are these same rules stating, "any type of navigation equipment is allowed and there is no objection to any type of information or advice being transmitted to or from the vessel."

I'll leave to all you folks to wade through all the exceptions and minutia on the WRSSC site. My eyes glazed over pretty quickly.

Their reference to 'outside resources' certainly catches my eye as it's a pretty broad exclusion. As I said in my earlier post, I'm not sure I buy into every part of their definitions but I doubt they care what I think. I'm pretty sure Jessica doesn't. Heck, I bet you don't.

I checked Jessica's website.

http://www.jessicawatson.com.au/

There's no mention that I could find of any ratifying body being involved. I gather it's just their own claims about what this voyage is or isn't. Which is fine. Likewise, I certainly think we're entitled to kick around what we think.

Gosh Scott, I hope you weren't referring to me about being "silly." I mean, I am, but who the heck said anything about not respecting Jessica?

Joe · Dec 8, 2009

Alright Rick!... good stuff. You see, simply defining the term "unassisted" helps broaden the "fine line" mentioned earlier. I am hopeful we have a better understanding and respect for Jessica's effort and the "sport" of solo circumnavigation.

I picked the article because it was easy for me to understand. Sorry I didn't offer something more technically written.

BTW... thanks for bringing our attention to the "Hot Gymnasts...." link. I never even noticed it, because, you know, I was only interested in the article. heh, heh.

Scott... that was well said. I concur.

Rick Sylvester · Dec 9, 2009

You know, after all this discussion and reading

I think I've finally arrived at the crux of the matter (for me at least.)

I think that "without assistance" should be "without physical assistance."

This makes much more sense to me. Anyway, as others have said, it's an impressive feat no matter how you slice it.

Levin · Dec 9, 2009

My final thoughts...

Hello all...

So I think I figured out what about the "without assistance" or "without aid" has always bugged me about this whole thing. Thanks a bunch to Rick's and Stu's earlier posts for helping me to figure this out in my head. In my mind I have a hard time claiming that she made this attempt without aid (even though no one is physically there with her) because the attempt does not require her to rely on her judgment very often or does it force her to make critical decisions about the trip.

This basically comes down to the difference between passive and active assistance. Passive systems such as weather data, GPS data, and books all give assistance but still force the reader, user, or whomever to ultimately make a judgment call after they have consulted these references. In Jessica's case all of her assistance is very active. She has people planning her course for her, monitoring the status of her vessel, and ultimately telling her what to do, where to go, and what course to take to get there. Now that that might not mean that has no input into these decisions... but I get the impression that most of the important decisions are made for her... which means she is very, very aided in her journey.

Now none of this takes away from her bravery, or the respect that we should have for what she is doing, if the going gets tough at some point and she looses her systems then it does all come down to her. Yet this does force me to question the "unaided" claim laid on the journey... and as I said before as technology continues to improve I doubt many will be able to claim a solo sail around the world... but that's another discussion for a different thread.

Thanks everyone for adding to this thread... It has proven to be a very fun and enlightening read over the last few days.

Take care,
-Levin

Stu Jackson · Dec 9, 2009

Interesting analogy, here

...to the original Mercury 7 astronauts and the Apollo moon crews. The Mercury guys were slipped into the capsules, blasted off in the tin cans, flew around and dropped back in.

During the Gemini program and the development of the Apollo program, the astronauts literally fought with NASA to allow them to "be PILOTS" and have control over the "vessels" or "birds" that they were flying.

I see some of the same processes going on here in this discussion about assistance, outside assistance and physical assistance.

Just think of the mental assistance provided by the ground during Apollo 13. That may be a very fine example of outside but not physical assistance. The telemetry aside for the electronic assistance, I think Levin nailed it.

For all of the contributors to this topic, Thanks for being part of it, this one has been a lot of fun and a learning experience.

In a thread on another board yesterday, someone posted how great his new telephone was which would allow him to...let me have him tell you himself:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]I've started using Google Latitude on my new phone, which allows you to see the location of friends. It seems like it'll be a fun thing (we used it on Sunday to locate friends going to the Seahawks game), and I've added a couple of folks from the forum already, so we can see where each other goes when we're out on the water or wherever. It also seems to have some safety aspects in that folks can find where you are (or at least your phone) if you're overdue. You can set proximity alerts so that if you're close to each other, your phone can let you know. There are other aspects I haven't explored yet, but I'm looking forward to it.

A number of respondents said "How Cool" and "sign me up."

My reply was this:

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]Guess I'm an old traditionalist. Too much information, much of it overload, and perhaps too invasive of privacy, even with the cutoffs.

Last time I needed to find a friend on the water, I used the VHF.

Harumph, arrrgh, and a few grunts, too.

[/FONT]

That's what's so much fun about sailing: different strokes for different folks. That's why I agreed with the skipper who said "Get four 30 foot boats" when someone recently asked if they could fit four families on a vacation cruise on a 50 foot monohull.:dance:

Ross · Dec 9, 2009

Re: My final thoughts...

If we peel back all of the layers of assistance then at some point we become explorers just bumping around until we get somewhere.
Let's start with ship to shore communications---Gone.
Electronic aids to navigation gps, depth sounders knot logs------Gone.
Now we are down to magnetic compass and mechanical chronometer and sextant, almanac and sight reduction tables----all prepared by others.
In Colombus time books were very costly and controlled by either the church or the monarchy.
Coloumbus didn't have a watch so he couldn't find longitude.
Sun sights would give him latitude so he doesn't need a set of sight reduction tables.
He would sail north or south to a latitude he wanted and then sail east or west untill he found land.

When he was out of sight of land he had no way to fix his position.

Joe · Dec 9, 2009

Final comment...

Is it that hard for Levin to understand that Jessica and her team are simply stating that she is attempting to circumnavigate the globe "without assistance" as defined by the circumnavigation community and which was clarified by Rick?

The term/concept of sailing "without assistance" has been defined for us... but Levin chooses to ignore it and criticize her for not being "unaided".... because he refuses to see the difference between the two terms.

She's not a ROBOT or a Monkey in a capsule. She's the one sailing the boat, not shore/ground control.... they're simply giving her information.... they are aiding her but not assisting her. Like....... navigational aid versus vessel assistance.