Foam Luff

[Scott T-Bird]

I'm not sure, but I don't think King's Gambit is right about the requirement for a foam luff if you have a reefing furler. I was under the impression that the better furler/reefers are able to reef the sail with a flatter shape without needing a foam luff.

I understand that if you already have a furler/reefer that can't reef with a good shape (and don't want to change it out), then get a foam luff. But if you want the best shape when your sail is at 100% then I would avoid the foam luff and get a better furler (if starting with new). Besides, I don't see the sense in using a sail that is reefed most of the time. If you've got a headsail that isn't being used to it's full dimension at least 80% of the time, then get the right-sized headsail!

 

[Jackdaw]

I'm not sure, but I don't think King's Gambit is right about the requirement for a foam luff if you have a reefing furler. I was under the impression that the better furler/reefers are able to reef the sail with a flatter shape without needing a foam luff.

Scott,

Thats not quite true.

Furlers like the Selden Furlex line offer was is called a 'free turn', where the top swivel and the foil can make up to one complete turn before the foot starts to move. This helps the sail roll in better, but does not really help the reefed shape. All genoas are cut with 'belly'; a 3-dimensional shape that allows them to fill and create an desired airfoil shape when unrolled. Because this belly is not rolled up at the same rate, the extra fullness stays when you want it least; when the sail is partially rolled in a reefed configuration. That is why foam (or rope) has become popular on the luff. The extra diameter of the rolling sail in the middle caused by the foam pulls the sail flat.



s

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Jackdaw, I am interested in that opinion because my furler of choice when I finally decide to purchase it would be a Harken Mark IV. As they advertise, they claim there is no need to add the foam luff, under the caveat that the sail is designed properly within limitations. Then they go on to say that sailors should also have an inventory if they sail in conditions where a limited range isn't sufficient.

http://www.harken.com/furling/

I think it goes to my point that I wouldn't want the luff if it means that it ruins the entry when you have the sail fully deployed, which should be most of the time. If you have to reef to the point that the furler can't do a good job without the foam luff, then it is better to hoist the correct-sized sail.

 

[shemandr]

I think too many people put a 150 on because they're afraid of being underpowered in light air. Then they reef to a crummy shape and don't like to sail upwind. I think it's much better to put the 135 on, if you sail in wind of 10 knots or more. A good shaped 135 in apparent wind of 15 knots will sail very well and you will even get a PHRF credit for it. You may suffer some going downwind but you can still get to the podium. I crew on a boat that does exactly this and more often the 135 is the right sail and the 150 would overpower the boat.
For cruising it's even more true. Why would you want to wrestle with the 150 when a 135 tacks so easily. When it's really light enough for the 150 a lot of cruisers will be motoring anyway. I guess my point is that the 150 is a creation for those who sail often and almost exclusively in light air.
Our afternoon sea breeze is 15 knots. I see folks struggling with their 150's all the time. It makes no sense to me.

 

[BarryL]

Hello,

I have come to this discussion a little late (been traveling).

I also have an O'day 35. It also came with the original set of Neil Pryde Sails (150 genoa and mainsail) as well as a newer main and a small jib (make unknown).

In 2008 I bought a new 140 headsail from UK. It came with a foam luff and there is a stripe on the foot of sail to show me when it's rolled up to a 110.

IMHO, it works well as a 110, not as great as the small jib, but it's a whole lot easier to roll the 140 to a 110 then it is to take the sail down and put up the 110. I would definitely buy the foam luff again. Don't expect miracles, but I feel it's worth the cost. When reefed it works better than the 150 reefed (but the 150 is blown out).

Barry

 

[Kings Gambit]

It seems different w/a fractional rig.

The Bavaria 38E is a 7/8 fractional rig with a Selden Furlex roller furler and 135% Elstrom genny w/ a foam luff & sun cover on the leech. Before that I had a Pearson 30 (masthead rig) with a Profurl roller furler and a 155% genny w/ a foam luff & sun cover on the leech.

When the wind got up on the Pearson, the 155% could be reefed to about a 125% and still work well, and b/f I needed to think about jiffy reefing the main. Bring the main down getting to 20 or low 20's and could I comfortably sail up wind or down.

When the wind gets up on the Bavaria, I'll roller reef the jib in some, but the sheet leads are too far aft to get a good sheeting angle much shorter than about 120-125%. So, when it gets 20 kt or greater for upwind work, I also reef the FB main. The good news is that if I have to bear off to a reach, I can easily redeploy the jib to its full 135%, and speed away. I have a light 155% for light air work that tacks to the stem; so no furling there. When I need less sail, I have to take it down and put up something else.

 

[Jackdaw]

Scott,

We use a Furlex on BlueJ, but our First 36.7, the cruising headsail is on a Harken Mark IV. It a great unit. Even with the independent head and foot swivels, I cannot see how that helps take the extra fullness out of the semi-furled sail. Indeed, our cruising 140, designed for the boat and furler by Neil Pryde, came with (you guessed it) luff foam.

What IS true is headsails are getting smaller, and in a fixed size. Many boats like BlueJ use a non-overlapping jib (105%) with a big roachy main. These modern jibs are flatter in general, and I could see them without foam. Both our rolling furling jibs are foamless. But then we double reef before we give any thought to doing anything with the jib.

Older masthead rigs with >140 genoas, hard to image those sails not being better with luff foam.

 

[Kings Gambit]

It depends on the overlap of the sail

I think the answer just came to me. With a smaller head sail, you might not be able to roller reef down enough to justify the extra cost of a foam luff. Keep your 130% deployed and reef the main; if you need to go lower; put on a used 100% or 90% and call it a day!! A 130% MIGHT already be too small to justify the foam luff addition!!

 

[Jackdaw]

Keep your 130% deployed and reef the main; if you need to go lower; put on a used 100% or 90% and call it a day!!

Kings,

This will work well for a main-driven fractional boat like yours and mine; reef first, headsail size second. An Oday with a masthead rig is genoa driven... on that knid of boat you do it opposite; adjust headsail first, main second.

 

[thinwater]

I have a foam luff 150% genoa by Quantum, and remains well-shaped through the full range, right down to 50%. It is quite practical to roll it to a handkerchief in 30 knots winds, the draft staying reasonable and forward. I guess they did something very right.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Good discussions! It gave me lots to think about ...

 

[David in Sandusky]

Why a big genny?

If you are racing, a big genny is a must to get you to the windward mark in light winds.

If you are cruising, consider a 110 or 105 with a cruising spinnaker. Above 15 knots, we have the right sails on all points of sail. At 10 knots or below we need our 135 only if we plan a long leg closer than 65 degrees to the wind. In that rare case, we switch sails - a good investment for hours of close hauled sailing. At more than 65 degrees our cruising spinnaker will outperform any genny.

Of course, it's easy to hoist the spinnaker over the rolled up 110 if conditions or our course changes during the day - or to drop the sock if we want to shift down in a rising wind.

Finally. Over 20 knots, our 110 (without foam) has reasonably good shape rolled up to 90.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Why do we purchase roller furling for the jib to begin with? Just to get away from hanked on sails; or to just get away from having to reserve room below deck for sail storage?

Roller furling w/o functional roller reefing is what the waste of money is in my view. The whole point of roller furling/reefing is that you do not have to carry a full inventory of sails to go cruising; or even racing. One head sail can be used through a range of wind strengths IF the thing can be reefed down and still perform adequately. Without a foam luff built in, it simply cannot do that. If you want a heavy, expensive, high windage foil on which to hoist a head sail with its foot two feet above the deck (loss of sail area), and all you can do with it is roll it out all the way, or roll it in all the way, then I'm stumped. Why would anybody do that? What's the deal?

The "deal" is simple. A single headsail to cover all "reasonable" conditions makes little sense for many reasons, even if you have "foam luffs" and "reefer furling." (Like my ProFurl).

I admittedly sail in an area known for its summer high winds, but it's pretty mellow here in the winter unless a front has just passed, which makes for N instead of W winds, same strength.

But I sure enjoy using the furler instead of backwinding the jib and rolling it up and putting it in bag.

That's why.

Anyway, I believe that folks who sail with 155s are, dare I say this, plain crazy. Besides having too big a sail if the wind pipes up, which is what they're WHISTLING for to begin with D), finding the right balance between a sail cloth weight and jib sheet sizes and weights boggles my mind. I'm sure, however, that some wag here will have solved that problem and will report here forthwith.

If you have a masthead rigged sloop, your drive is in the jib. If you have a B&R rig, stop reading right now, 'cuz the rest of this doesn't apply to you.

A roller furling/reefing system makes sailing easier, the reason they invented them. Safer, too.

But trying to find ONE sail to fit all conditions is lunacy. Really. Why should it be any different than when we carried multiple jibs for different wind conditions, 'cept that the furling can help, but only help a small bit.

I sail with two jibs. 85% for heavy summer winds (20-40), winter 110 (0-20). I race with the 110.

You might be interested in this, from right here on this forum:

A very illuminating and interesting discussion on co.com for those of you who might be in the market for a new jib.

http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=155362

Please read all three pages. Enjoy.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Sail Trim Forum ... lots of fun! If you haven't joined it yet, give it a try. Don't be afraid to start any topics or ask any questions about sail trim and all of its mystery ... just don't get me started on travelers (right Stu?).

 

[Stu Jackson]

Scott, I remember!

 

[Brian S]

Regarding a 150% genoa...

Here's my thinking, and someone edu-ma-cate me if I'm wrong…

For most fractional rigs a 150% genoa is overkill most of the time. If seeking a 150% for very light wind situations, a 150% might also be too heavy.

My plan would be to sail with a 135% all the time, reef down when needed, and then hoist a drifter when the wind gets really light. I think a drifter would be the better choice, because they are cut from light fabric, and would fill out more easily than a 150% cut from heavier dacron.

I have a friend with a Beneteau First 235, with a genoa on a roller furler, maybe a 135%, but I'm not sure. It is also a more modern fractional rig, maybe 9/10?, that goes almost to the masthead. Often times, he's rolling his genoa in for very light winds because it just won't set and hold shape, while I'm keeping up my 110% jib.

There's a Alberg at the lake, masthead rig, who often comes out in the evenings for very light puffy sailing. He hoists a rainbow stripe drifter, and leaves the main down. And glides along nicely relaxed.

If I had unlimited funds, I'd get a drifter too, just for the hell of it (In the summertime, it would come in handy…)