Our rudder leaks and in the offseason, I drill a 1/4 hole in the bottom to let it drain. In the spring the hole is filled with West System, covered with 2000E and bottom paint. The rudder is hollow. Has anyone ever filled the rudder with a expanding home insulation foam such as Great Stuff? How were your results? Or is this not such a good idea?
- Status
Are you sure?
I am certainly not the board expert on this topic, but I have never heard of a hollow rudder and would be concerned about its strength. I suppose if you have a smaller boat with a rudder on gudgeons, it may just be hollow, but if your boat has a permantly mounted rudder, I doubt it is hollow. Standard practice is to use a stainless framework inside and filled with a foam material. It is very common for rudders to get water in them. I know one guy who drilled holes in the bottom and tapped them out so he could put a removeable plug to drain his rudder each year. I would think that GreatStuff would not hold moisture, but I wonder how you could ensure that it gets evenly spread throughout the entire rudder. Water probably enters at the post on the rudder top, and if the GreatStuff sets with any voids you may trap water inside your rudder that cannot be drained out. If the boat is stored outside, that could cause problems when it freezes hard - if that ever happens again. I used to sail out of Racine Yacht Club and visited Milwaukee countless times. Where is your boat and what kind is it? One other thought: If your rudder truly is hollow, and you simply drain it every year, I would think that would not really be much of a problem as it should nicely dry out over the off season if you do not plug your drain hole up over the winter. You may already be going the best route. You certainly do not want moisture trapped inside permanantly because when it comes to trapped moisture, there is really no such thing as permanant - it will find a way out eventually even if it takes years.
I am certainly not the board expert on this topic, but I have never heard of a hollow rudder and would be concerned about its strength. I suppose if you have a smaller boat with a rudder on gudgeons, it may just be hollow, but if your boat has a permantly mounted rudder, I doubt it is hollow. Standard practice is to use a stainless framework inside and filled with a foam material. It is very common for rudders to get water in them. I know one guy who drilled holes in the bottom and tapped them out so he could put a removeable plug to drain his rudder each year. I would think that GreatStuff would not hold moisture, but I wonder how you could ensure that it gets evenly spread throughout the entire rudder. Water probably enters at the post on the rudder top, and if the GreatStuff sets with any voids you may trap water inside your rudder that cannot be drained out. If the boat is stored outside, that could cause problems when it freezes hard - if that ever happens again. I used to sail out of Racine Yacht Club and visited Milwaukee countless times. Where is your boat and what kind is it? One other thought: If your rudder truly is hollow, and you simply drain it every year, I would think that would not really be much of a problem as it should nicely dry out over the off season if you do not plug your drain hole up over the winter. You may already be going the best route. You certainly do not want moisture trapped inside permanantly because when it comes to trapped moisture, there is really no such thing as permanant - it will find a way out eventually even if it takes years.
Rick, Foss foam was the maker of many of these
At the prices that new rudders cost, I would call Foss foam and inquire with them. r.w.landau
At the prices that new rudders cost, I would call Foss foam and inquire with them. r.w.landau
Did it....
I had the same problem on my 35' O'Day. The surveyor found it when I bought the boat and I managed to get a reduction on the price because of it. Later I drilled holes in the hollow parts and sprayed in some foam insulation from Home-Depot. That hardened everything up and its been fine for 4 years. I filled the holes with epoxy-resin. Paul
I had the same problem on my 35' O'Day. The surveyor found it when I bought the boat and I managed to get a reduction on the price because of it. Later I drilled holes in the hollow parts and sprayed in some foam insulation from Home-Depot. That hardened everything up and its been fine for 4 years. I filled the holes with epoxy-resin. Paul
Rick, Same Problem - Same Remedy
I had the same problem and in the winter (on the hard) water would ooze from various locations on both sides of the rudder. Then the bright idea was to seal these spots with 5200. That following Fall upon haulout, that's exactly what I did. That stopped the oozing. The next spring I had a split in the rudder along the very bottom edge of the rudder on the "crease". It cost me $450 to have it repaired by the yard. Since then, I have drilled 3 holes on either side of the rudder at the bottom to drain any internal water. I refill them in the spring and repaint the rudder. No problems since.
I had the same problem and in the winter (on the hard) water would ooze from various locations on both sides of the rudder. Then the bright idea was to seal these spots with 5200. That following Fall upon haulout, that's exactly what I did. That stopped the oozing. The next spring I had a split in the rudder along the very bottom edge of the rudder on the "crease". It cost me $450 to have it repaired by the yard. Since then, I have drilled 3 holes on either side of the rudder at the bottom to drain any internal water. I refill them in the spring and repaint the rudder. No problems since.
Another option
As noted by others, Foss Foam (aka 'Rudders Inc.') supplied a lot of the Hunter rudders and still in business (Florida). Speaking for those sailing in 'freeze-thaw' regions (especially the 'freeze' component), leaking rudders pose at least (3) problems: 1) how'd it get in and 2) how to prevent it from happening again. The 3rd problems is how to repair the damage caused when the water within froze, expanded and caused the fiberglass skin to delaminate from the foam sub-strate. The link explains one option to these three problems. Unfortunately, it involves dropping your rudder while on the hard and a fair amount of sweat equity...if you're willing to tackle it. Good luck and remember: we're one day closer to spring!
As noted by others, Foss Foam (aka 'Rudders Inc.') supplied a lot of the Hunter rudders and still in business (Florida). Speaking for those sailing in 'freeze-thaw' regions (especially the 'freeze' component), leaking rudders pose at least (3) problems: 1) how'd it get in and 2) how to prevent it from happening again. The 3rd problems is how to repair the damage caused when the water within froze, expanded and caused the fiberglass skin to delaminate from the foam sub-strate. The link explains one option to these three problems. Unfortunately, it involves dropping your rudder while on the hard and a fair amount of sweat equity...if you're willing to tackle it. Good luck and remember: we're one day closer to spring!
could rust at welds
the internal frame to rudder post welds can rust due to water penetration and will eventually rust and weaken. If that happens, the rudder will fail when under load. Drilling holes to drain it doesn't cure the problem as trapped water can also freeze and expand exacerbating the problem and causing the hollow to widen. Holes in the bottom don't mecessarily mean the water is trapped or can drain at the bottom either. The only way to ensure the integrity of the rudder is to peel the rudder and remove the foam and inspect it, partuicularly if this has been going on for a while.
the internal frame to rudder post welds can rust due to water penetration and will eventually rust and weaken. If that happens, the rudder will fail when under load. Drilling holes to drain it doesn't cure the problem as trapped water can also freeze and expand exacerbating the problem and causing the hollow to widen. Holes in the bottom don't mecessarily mean the water is trapped or can drain at the bottom either. The only way to ensure the integrity of the rudder is to peel the rudder and remove the foam and inspect it, partuicularly if this has been going on for a while.
I am in the beginning stages of a rudder repair
right now. Our Oday 34 had quite a bit of moisture in it on haulout this year, so I removed the rudder and stood it upside down hoping to drain it back out where it went in - where the rudder post enters the rudder. Unfortunately, I didn't get the rudder pulled until after we had a week of single digit temps, and I had several areas where the skin had separated from the core. I removed most of the skin from one side, and about a half the skin from the other side. Below the top 1/8" layer of glass is a coarser 1/4" thick layer of glass, then the foam core. The foam is a much harder/denser material than I had envisioned. After cutting the rudder open, we took it back inside to continue drying. As we were standing it up, we heard water sloshing around inside. After drilling about a dozen holes in various places and not finding anything, we concluded the water must be in the post. I drilled a small hole in the post about halfway down the rudder body, and we got between 1 and 2 cups of water out. I suspect it ran into the bottom of the post while we had the rudder standing upside down, because I can't imagine any other way for water to have gotten inside the post. Rick, I am working on the rudder at the Milwaukee Community Sailing Center if you have any interest in seeing what the inside of our rudder looks like. I didn't know they made hollow rudders on boats the size of ours - but I'm sure there are a lot of other things I don't know about them as well! -- Scott Fuller O34 Dawn Treader Milwaukee, WI
right now. Our Oday 34 had quite a bit of moisture in it on haulout this year, so I removed the rudder and stood it upside down hoping to drain it back out where it went in - where the rudder post enters the rudder. Unfortunately, I didn't get the rudder pulled until after we had a week of single digit temps, and I had several areas where the skin had separated from the core. I removed most of the skin from one side, and about a half the skin from the other side. Below the top 1/8" layer of glass is a coarser 1/4" thick layer of glass, then the foam core. The foam is a much harder/denser material than I had envisioned. After cutting the rudder open, we took it back inside to continue drying. As we were standing it up, we heard water sloshing around inside. After drilling about a dozen holes in various places and not finding anything, we concluded the water must be in the post. I drilled a small hole in the post about halfway down the rudder body, and we got between 1 and 2 cups of water out. I suspect it ran into the bottom of the post while we had the rudder standing upside down, because I can't imagine any other way for water to have gotten inside the post. Rick, I am working on the rudder at the Milwaukee Community Sailing Center if you have any interest in seeing what the inside of our rudder looks like. I didn't know they made hollow rudders on boats the size of ours - but I'm sure there are a lot of other things I don't know about them as well! -- Scott Fuller O34 Dawn Treader Milwaukee, WI
Rick, one other question?
Why don't you fix the leak so you don't have to go through this every year?? I suspect ours is leaking where the rudder post enters the rudder body, and I intend to grind out a small groove that I can fill with 5200 to prevent water entering there. -- Scott Fuller O34 Dawn Treader Milwaukee, WI
Why don't you fix the leak so you don't have to go through this every year?? I suspect ours is leaking where the rudder post enters the rudder body, and I intend to grind out a small groove that I can fill with 5200 to prevent water entering there. -- Scott Fuller O34 Dawn Treader Milwaukee, WI
Hollow rudder
There are always voids in the rudder. My rudder on a CS30 even has a flaring on the top front with a hole built in. You need to remove the flaring to remove the lower bearing. When my boat was surveyed last year the surveyor told me to drill a few holes on the bottom and just leave it. Since you can't seal all the leak anyway. Make sense. I did put a SS plate on the bottom with a drain plug so I don't have to drill and seal every season. The plug is just used to keep out zebra or other creature making a home inside. If you can't beat them join them. I've been thinking of pumping some antifreeze in there. If the voids are filled with anti-freeze it should not freeze. Just thinking out of the box.
There are always voids in the rudder. My rudder on a CS30 even has a flaring on the top front with a hole built in. You need to remove the flaring to remove the lower bearing. When my boat was surveyed last year the surveyor told me to drill a few holes on the bottom and just leave it. Since you can't seal all the leak anyway. Make sense. I did put a SS plate on the bottom with a drain plug so I don't have to drill and seal every season. The plug is just used to keep out zebra or other creature making a home inside. If you can't beat them join them. I've been thinking of pumping some antifreeze in there. If the voids are filled with anti-freeze it should not freeze. Just thinking out of the box.
rudder isuues
I too have had the same issue with my rudder as well as another one. I drill a hole at the end of the season and then fill it in the spring. The other issue is the "dark paint absorbs heat and creates gas which bubbles the rudder skin" problem. Both of these issues have plagued foam-filled rudders for years. Why do they keep making rudders with this design problem? Why does Hunter keep buying them? Why can't they re-design and eliminate the problem?
I too have had the same issue with my rudder as well as another one. I drill a hole at the end of the season and then fill it in the spring. The other issue is the "dark paint absorbs heat and creates gas which bubbles the rudder skin" problem. Both of these issues have plagued foam-filled rudders for years. Why do they keep making rudders with this design problem? Why does Hunter keep buying them? Why can't they re-design and eliminate the problem?
On Rudders....
I, too, am not an expert on Rudders, particularly the weird beast made by Foss Foam. BTW, the reason Hunter used (hopefully past tense...) Foss Foam rudders is the same reason they use iron instead of lead in some the keels of their boats: cheaper. Grizz below has an excellent post and link to how he rebuilt a Foss Foam rudder and is worth a read. But if your rudder is "not that bad" (a subjective judgment) I think some less drastic measure may suffice. If you are able to drill, drain, and dry out whatever water may be inside your rudder, and can reasonably find and repair the place where the water entered (typically one of the creases where the halves come together), I think that drilling a pattern of shallow holes in the rudder, where you think there may be voids where the water was, and filling these holes with a syringe full of epoxy, and then sealing the holes, may work. I did this with the Foss Foam rudder on my H28.5 some 3 yrs ago and it seems to be working, that is I cannot detect any water now getting into the rudder. I would not recommend using GreatStuff foam as I believe that stuff may expand as it dries and perhaps could make matters a lot worse.
I, too, am not an expert on Rudders, particularly the weird beast made by Foss Foam. BTW, the reason Hunter used (hopefully past tense...) Foss Foam rudders is the same reason they use iron instead of lead in some the keels of their boats: cheaper. Grizz below has an excellent post and link to how he rebuilt a Foss Foam rudder and is worth a read. But if your rudder is "not that bad" (a subjective judgment) I think some less drastic measure may suffice. If you are able to drill, drain, and dry out whatever water may be inside your rudder, and can reasonably find and repair the place where the water entered (typically one of the creases where the halves come together), I think that drilling a pattern of shallow holes in the rudder, where you think there may be voids where the water was, and filling these holes with a syringe full of epoxy, and then sealing the holes, may work. I did this with the Foss Foam rudder on my H28.5 some 3 yrs ago and it seems to be working, that is I cannot detect any water now getting into the rudder. I would not recommend using GreatStuff foam as I believe that stuff may expand as it dries and perhaps could make matters a lot worse.
Scott
Scott, I really would be interested in seeing the inside of the rudder. Please email me at rschoos@hotmail.com with your phone number and mabe we can set up a time this weekend. Thanks.
Scott, I really would be interested in seeing the inside of the rudder. Please email me at rschoos@hotmail.com with your phone number and mabe we can set up a time this weekend. Thanks.
Rick, I would still call Foss Foam.
You may want to do the repair with polyester resin like the original construction. The epoxy my eat the foam. r.w.landau
You may want to do the repair with polyester resin like the original construction. The epoxy my eat the foam. r.w.landau
- Status