Flying a symmetric spinnaker as an asymmetric
- Thread starter rpwillia
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For reaching you will be OK. And you can rig a 'tacker' to help keep the tack (in this case your windward clew) of the sail on the midline by holding it to the forestay over the rolled jib. Reaching with a tacker, this will be pretty OK because in this case the sail is set very similar to how it would be with a pole.
But the deeper you go the more problems you will have. Asyms are cut to 'project', meaning that the rotate to windward on deep reaches (130-150 AWA). This means that the curved luff of the sail ends up being way on the windward side of the forestay and in the clean air unblanked by the main. In order for the sail to work downwind at all this has to happen. A symmetrical sail will not do this nearly as well if at all.
Your other option would be to drop the main to keep the sail in clear air. But depending on the cut of the sail, it might not like to go deep without a pole helping to keep the foot open.
But there is no harm in trying any of this.
But the deeper you go the more problems you will have. Asyms are cut to 'project', meaning that the rotate to windward on deep reaches (130-150 AWA). This means that the curved luff of the sail ends up being way on the windward side of the forestay and in the clean air unblanked by the main. In order for the sail to work downwind at all this has to happen. A symmetrical sail will not do this nearly as well if at all.
Your other option would be to drop the main to keep the sail in clear air. But depending on the cut of the sail, it might not like to go deep without a pole helping to keep the foot open.
But there is no harm in trying any of this.
The biggest issue is clew height. With a pole you keep the sail's windward clew forward and well above the deck... 4-6 feet... which means the leeward clew will not dip into the water when the boat yaws. An asymetric is cut with the clew much higher than the tack.... so the tack can set much lower than its symetrical counterpart. If you attach the weather clew of the big chute to the headstay, it will have to ride super high to keep the leewad clew out of the water and under control.... the higher up, the further back, the less effective.... trim issues will develop. If you don't attach the clew to the headstay (which I don't) you'll want to keep the clew/tack pretty low so it doesn't sway.... creating the sail in the water scenario.....
But, hey, give it a try on a day when the water is flat and experiment with different settings... you'll never know unless you try.
You can set and douse with a pole when single handing..... what's really hard is jibing... I've never done it by myself. You have to have confidence in your auto pilot and courage to work the foredeck with both hands. An Asym allows you to jibe from the cockpit..... but be vigilant, the clew of the symetrical being so low you will have to take care not to let it get fouled when it goes across.
Finally, I'd suggest you have crew aboard the first time you try it..... so you can work out the kinks in relative safety.
But, hey, give it a try on a day when the water is flat and experiment with different settings... you'll never know unless you try.
You can set and douse with a pole when single handing..... what's really hard is jibing... I've never done it by myself. You have to have confidence in your auto pilot and courage to work the foredeck with both hands. An Asym allows you to jibe from the cockpit..... but be vigilant, the clew of the symetrical being so low you will have to take care not to let it get fouled when it goes across.
Finally, I'd suggest you have crew aboard the first time you try it..... so you can work out the kinks in relative safety.
That's the whole idea of the tacker. On a reach, it positions the windward clew of the sail in the exactly same place it would be with a pole.
http://www.atninc.com/tacker_en.php
Its when you turn downwind that things start to get funky....
I have sailed and raced my boat single handed by attaching a downhaul line to each clew and led to two blocks by the headstay. Basically you have two tack lines. You can rotate either clew to the head stat by pulling down the opposite "tack line" to the spinnaker sheet
I know what a "tacker" is. You can also use parrel beads or a sleeve of sail cloth to wrap around the furled headsail and save yourself a hundred bucks. In any event, you still have to walk all the way forward to rig it up, which is often inconvenient when singlehanding. On my boat I have two clips on the asym tack, one for the bare headstay, the other for the tackline.... what I have found, and this is on my boat.. that the sail works better off the wind, NOT attached to the headstay... except sometimes on a reach. The problem with the SYMETRICAL spin, is that if you attach it to the headstay, and let it ride up high enough to allow the sail to clear the water (remember it's cut straight across, not angled up like an asym) then the entire sail is moved aft (the headstay angles aft, right) This means the luff of the sail will be entirely too curved for the desired shape. Remember that a spinnaker pole keeps the chute's tack end at a constant distance from the mast... that's the "j" I'm sure you know, no matter how high the sail is set. Letting it ride up the headstay reduces that "j" and F's up the shape control.
It works a lot better to let the tack fly free, allowing the wind to pull the sail forward, rather than have it restricted by the headstay.... Now, if you want to tack the sail low, which is normal for reaching, then you can clip it to the headstay (or use the tacker, if you please)... but I've found the short leash of tackline keeps the sail close enough not warrant a trip forward.....
So....... my suggestion, if you insist on flying the symetrical chute without the pole, is just to let it fly free... that's what it wants to do anyhow... and not try reaching with it....
I like Cayennita's thought... but we could take it a step further and try riggin TWO jacklines on either side of the pulpit. Then you hook both to the same clew, and have a kind of triangular shaped tackline. The windward side pulling the sail's clew toward center at a better angle... You would also rig the leeward clew with two sheets so you could jibe the sail.....
All this is predicated, though, on whether you can keep the fully cut chute out of the water when tacked down low.
Once upon the time there was a spinnaker pole end that had an open front similar to a muzzle loader of old with two lines going from the clews through the pole and down to two blocks at the base of the mast. Premark your topping lift or tie a figure eight. It will stop at the sheet stopper. The pole drops, ease one tack line and pull on the other as you jibe, raise the topping lift and done. I gad this set up on my Seidelman 30 for single handed. On my Hunter 35, I used to snatch blocks at the end of the pole and run lines through them and down and aft.
Clever!
With big-mained fractional boats I never want to leave the mainsheet unattended during a jibe. Thats why I've only used the aspins solo. Some some of these in-the-cockpit tricks I might try!
Here's a method to fly a symmetrical spinnaker single handed.
Needed:
... means to adjust the pole height up/down from the cockpit
... spinn halyard run back to cockpit (preferred but not necessary).
... NO sharp edges or 'hooks', etc. any where in the forerigging or spreader ends, etc.
... spinnaker crane mounted at the head of the mast.
... roller furling jib or 'small' jib on hanks
... no 'chute scoop, etc.' needed ... only 'complicates' the set-up and the control lines 'clutter the deck', etc. Alternate is to run the 'chute scoop' control lines to the rail (with double block), then back to the cockpit, if you 'must' use a 'scoop'.
... not used in unstable/gusty winds or in winds well above ~12 kts.
... forward hatch or 'spinnaker turtle' lashed to the rail'
... No need to gybe the spinnnaker !!!!! just 'run' on one leg and reach on the opposite leg ... pole never changes sides of the boat.
• Set the pole so that its 'close' to the deck and at or on the forestay ... on the opposite side from where you will be raising the spinn. Note: I usually tie-on the spinnaker sheets with a 'long' bowline and connect the pole to the 'loop' ... so that the sheets also control the fore/aft position of the pole. (So dont fly the spinn in 'high' winds because you wont be able to 'blow' the spinnaker from the pole)
• With jib flying, open main fully to the shrouds (so that spinn is raised 'behind' the main), raise the halyard/spinn to full up as quick as possible. (note: the spinn sheet is pre-marked and set so that the spin cannot 'blow' in front of the boat).
If hanked on small jib ... continue to fly it.
If roller furling jib with spinnaker crane furl the jib ... but especially WATCH that the top swivel does not FOUL the head of the spinnaker ... or you may need to go aloft with a knife in your teeth later on.
• Pull the 'foreguy' (the 'lazy sheet') until its IN the pole end.
• harden up to a broad reach (or DDW) and continue to pull in on the lazy guy as you ease the sheet and until the spin begins to fly, re-set pole height until the spinn 'breaks' /luffs in the upper-middle of the luff. Readjust the sheet as needed.
* Simply sail as you desire between DDW (or even on the lee!!!) on one leg.
After gybing (pole dropped close to the deck to keep the spinn luff tight to prevent a 'wrap' around the forestay before gybing) simply sail on the 'highest angle' that the spinnaker allows ... and short tack to where you again gybe and continue DDW or on a broad reach, etc. The pole is never 'gybed', not brought across to the 'other side'.
••• other possibility when the pole is ON the forestay (or when flying an Asymm): You will be surprised how 'easy' and how stable it is to fly the spinnaker with the mainsail "on the leeside" such as one sails 'wing and wing' DDW !!!!!! may 'look like hell' but it 'works'. (Planing dinghy and sport-boat racers sail spinnakers with the mainsail on 'wrong side' a lot of the time.)
*Dousing the Spinn (w/o chutescoop, etc) :
Open the mainsheet so that the boom is at an approx. 45° from the centerline, pull the spinn sheet full back so the pole is touching the forestay then TACK the boat through the eye of the wind, until the boat becomes 'hove to' and with the spinnaker 'held' to windward side of the sails by wind pressure. Uncleat, etc. the halyard, grab the foot of the spinn, let go of the halyard and PULL (peel) the spinn down and into its 'turtle' or down a hatch ... all the while the boat is sitting hove-to like a duck sitting on the water during a rainshower.
••• Spinnaker wraps around the forestay .... gonna happen someday, so be prepared.
Have a boom 'preventer' set up and all ready to go at a 'seconds notice'. A forestay wrap happens because the wind gets onto the 'wrong' side of the sail, forms a 'bubble' of sail material + air and the bubble then 'swings' around the forestay .... sometimes several times around the forestay. When a 'wrap' occurs ... NEVER EVER NEVER 'pull' on the sail or sheets as this will only 'tighten' the bubble and tighten or jam the 'knot' that is holding it in place.
Rather, since the wind put the bubble there, use the wind to 'unwind' the bubble by using the preventer and the sails to 'unwrap' the bubble(s):
Gybe the boom and attach the preventer to hold the boom ON THE LEESIDE ... almost 'all the way forward', Then slowly gybe 'back and forth' as you watch how the bubble is unwrapping or not, and simply slowly gybe back and forth with the main ON THE LEESIDE (You may need to change which side the boom is on - windward or leeward, etc. if the 'wrap' is complicated). It usually doesnt take much gybe angle crossings to 'reverse' the air flow onto the correct angle to unwrap the bubble using the wind and 'backed' mainsail.
Whatever you do DONT PULL on the spinnaker's luff or leech or its sheets when you have a 'wrap' ... unless you want to risk going up the rigging with a knife in your teeth - an 'extreme' possibility but 'possible'.
Note: If you do use a chutescoope and its controls line are led aft to the cockpit, and have a good responsive autopilot .... hold the boat at almost DDW, simply 'reef' the spinnaker about 'half way', gybe the pole and reconnect to the 'opposite' sheet, gybe the boat, and 'unreef' the spinnaker, etc. The 'reefed' (or full up spinnaker, if you prefer) will be held in place by the 'premarked' and cleated sheets as you gybe ... this will become 'obvious' once you do it a few times.
Notes for successful gybing (applies equally to asymm or symm spinnakers) --- use the LIGHTEST spinnaker sheets, that money can buy and are appropriate for the max windstrength that you are NOW sailing in ... when 'clew out and around' gybing, allow the sheet and CLEW blow 'ALL THE WAY fully FORWARD' before you gybe the boat and begin to pull in on the 'new' sheet, ------- so that clew when pulled in by the 'new' sheet doesnt form a 'bubble' in the middle of the sail. Once the CLEW is full forward as it can go, then slowly gybe the boat and begin to pull in the 'new' sheet ... such will prevent a LOT of 'trauma' and blind panic. With heavy sheets, the clew sometimes will not be 'blown' full forward ... and you WILL risk wrapping the spin around the forestay, running over the sheets with the boat, stamping of feet and un-controlable sobbing, etc. etc. etc..
For those with unlimited checkbooks: http://www.bamarusa.com/bamar-rollgen.htm push the button to furl the spin, push the auto-tack/gybe function on the autopilot, push another button to unfurl the spinn and reset the opposite sheet. .... I really really want one.
Notes for 'roller furling jibs/genoas ..... 'should' have a 'spinnaker crane' at the top of the mast ... a spinnaker crane holds the spinnaker (material) AWAY from the top swivel of the furler. Without a mast crane (although still possible) the light weight spinnaker material can easily become 'trapped', partly wrapped and ***JAMMED*** INTO the head of jib/genoa. So if you use a furler to open/dowse a jib/genoa when flying a spinn ... you must be VERY CAREFUL not to wrap the spinn WITH the jib head or the 'top swivel' ... very unpleasant when you have no way to either furl or dowse the jammed spinn AND the jib/genoa. When using a furler anywhere 'near' a spinnaker, use your eyeballs and carefully WATCH what is happening 'near' that top swivel.
;-)
Needed:
... means to adjust the pole height up/down from the cockpit
... spinn halyard run back to cockpit (preferred but not necessary).
... NO sharp edges or 'hooks', etc. any where in the forerigging or spreader ends, etc.
... spinnaker crane mounted at the head of the mast.
... roller furling jib or 'small' jib on hanks
... no 'chute scoop, etc.' needed ... only 'complicates' the set-up and the control lines 'clutter the deck', etc. Alternate is to run the 'chute scoop' control lines to the rail (with double block), then back to the cockpit, if you 'must' use a 'scoop'.
... not used in unstable/gusty winds or in winds well above ~12 kts.
... forward hatch or 'spinnaker turtle' lashed to the rail'
... No need to gybe the spinnnaker !!!!! just 'run' on one leg and reach on the opposite leg ... pole never changes sides of the boat.
• Set the pole so that its 'close' to the deck and at or on the forestay ... on the opposite side from where you will be raising the spinn. Note: I usually tie-on the spinnaker sheets with a 'long' bowline and connect the pole to the 'loop' ... so that the sheets also control the fore/aft position of the pole. (So dont fly the spinn in 'high' winds because you wont be able to 'blow' the spinnaker from the pole)
• With jib flying, open main fully to the shrouds (so that spinn is raised 'behind' the main), raise the halyard/spinn to full up as quick as possible. (note: the spinn sheet is pre-marked and set so that the spin cannot 'blow' in front of the boat).
If hanked on small jib ... continue to fly it.
If roller furling jib with spinnaker crane furl the jib ... but especially WATCH that the top swivel does not FOUL the head of the spinnaker ... or you may need to go aloft with a knife in your teeth later on.
• Pull the 'foreguy' (the 'lazy sheet') until its IN the pole end.
• harden up to a broad reach (or DDW) and continue to pull in on the lazy guy as you ease the sheet and until the spin begins to fly, re-set pole height until the spinn 'breaks' /luffs in the upper-middle of the luff. Readjust the sheet as needed.
* Simply sail as you desire between DDW (or even on the lee!!!) on one leg.
After gybing (pole dropped close to the deck to keep the spinn luff tight to prevent a 'wrap' around the forestay before gybing) simply sail on the 'highest angle' that the spinnaker allows ... and short tack to where you again gybe and continue DDW or on a broad reach, etc. The pole is never 'gybed', not brought across to the 'other side'.
••• other possibility when the pole is ON the forestay (or when flying an Asymm): You will be surprised how 'easy' and how stable it is to fly the spinnaker with the mainsail "on the leeside" such as one sails 'wing and wing' DDW !!!!!! may 'look like hell' but it 'works'. (Planing dinghy and sport-boat racers sail spinnakers with the mainsail on 'wrong side' a lot of the time.)
*Dousing the Spinn (w/o chutescoop, etc) :
Open the mainsheet so that the boom is at an approx. 45° from the centerline, pull the spinn sheet full back so the pole is touching the forestay then TACK the boat through the eye of the wind, until the boat becomes 'hove to' and with the spinnaker 'held' to windward side of the sails by wind pressure. Uncleat, etc. the halyard, grab the foot of the spinn, let go of the halyard and PULL (peel) the spinn down and into its 'turtle' or down a hatch ... all the while the boat is sitting hove-to like a duck sitting on the water during a rainshower.
••• Spinnaker wraps around the forestay .... gonna happen someday, so be prepared.
Have a boom 'preventer' set up and all ready to go at a 'seconds notice'. A forestay wrap happens because the wind gets onto the 'wrong' side of the sail, forms a 'bubble' of sail material + air and the bubble then 'swings' around the forestay .... sometimes several times around the forestay. When a 'wrap' occurs ... NEVER EVER NEVER 'pull' on the sail or sheets as this will only 'tighten' the bubble and tighten or jam the 'knot' that is holding it in place.
Rather, since the wind put the bubble there, use the wind to 'unwind' the bubble by using the preventer and the sails to 'unwrap' the bubble(s):
Gybe the boom and attach the preventer to hold the boom ON THE LEESIDE ... almost 'all the way forward', Then slowly gybe 'back and forth' as you watch how the bubble is unwrapping or not, and simply slowly gybe back and forth with the main ON THE LEESIDE (You may need to change which side the boom is on - windward or leeward, etc. if the 'wrap' is complicated). It usually doesnt take much gybe angle crossings to 'reverse' the air flow onto the correct angle to unwrap the bubble using the wind and 'backed' mainsail.
Whatever you do DONT PULL on the spinnaker's luff or leech or its sheets when you have a 'wrap' ... unless you want to risk going up the rigging with a knife in your teeth - an 'extreme' possibility but 'possible'.
Note: If you do use a chutescoope and its controls line are led aft to the cockpit, and have a good responsive autopilot .... hold the boat at almost DDW, simply 'reef' the spinnaker about 'half way', gybe the pole and reconnect to the 'opposite' sheet, gybe the boat, and 'unreef' the spinnaker, etc. The 'reefed' (or full up spinnaker, if you prefer) will be held in place by the 'premarked' and cleated sheets as you gybe ... this will become 'obvious' once you do it a few times.
Notes for successful gybing (applies equally to asymm or symm spinnakers) --- use the LIGHTEST spinnaker sheets, that money can buy and are appropriate for the max windstrength that you are NOW sailing in ... when 'clew out and around' gybing, allow the sheet and CLEW blow 'ALL THE WAY fully FORWARD' before you gybe the boat and begin to pull in on the 'new' sheet, ------- so that clew when pulled in by the 'new' sheet doesnt form a 'bubble' in the middle of the sail. Once the CLEW is full forward as it can go, then slowly gybe the boat and begin to pull in the 'new' sheet ... such will prevent a LOT of 'trauma' and blind panic. With heavy sheets, the clew sometimes will not be 'blown' full forward ... and you WILL risk wrapping the spin around the forestay, running over the sheets with the boat, stamping of feet and un-controlable sobbing, etc. etc. etc..
For those with unlimited checkbooks: http://www.bamarusa.com/bamar-rollgen.htm push the button to furl the spin, push the auto-tack/gybe function on the autopilot, push another button to unfurl the spinn and reset the opposite sheet. .... I really really want one.
Notes for 'roller furling jibs/genoas ..... 'should' have a 'spinnaker crane' at the top of the mast ... a spinnaker crane holds the spinnaker (material) AWAY from the top swivel of the furler. Without a mast crane (although still possible) the light weight spinnaker material can easily become 'trapped', partly wrapped and ***JAMMED*** INTO the head of jib/genoa. So if you use a furler to open/dowse a jib/genoa when flying a spinn ... you must be VERY CAREFUL not to wrap the spinn WITH the jib head or the 'top swivel' ... very unpleasant when you have no way to either furl or dowse the jammed spinn AND the jib/genoa. When using a furler anywhere 'near' a spinnaker, use your eyeballs and carefully WATCH what is happening 'near' that top swivel.
;-)
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Spinnaker Single-handed
My symetrical didn't want to fly very well at all without a pole. It did pull the boat along, but looked like crap flying. I instead rigged the boat so I could raise and lower the spinnaker and pole from the cockpit. Changing the pole from side to side is interesting, but doable if timed correctly. Bad timing is a good learning experience.
I don't use it much unless the wind is light, which is when I need it going downwind (fractional rig). I don't think I could handle it alone if the wind was up.
JerryA
My symetrical didn't want to fly very well at all without a pole. It did pull the boat along, but looked like crap flying. I instead rigged the boat so I could raise and lower the spinnaker and pole from the cockpit. Changing the pole from side to side is interesting, but doable if timed correctly. Bad timing is a good learning experience.
I don't use it much unless the wind is light, which is when I need it going downwind (fractional rig). I don't think I could handle it alone if the wind was up.JerryA
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