Flushing toilets with fresh water

[Zatarra]

I just purchased a boat and it seems the previous owner switched out the plumbing of the water flushing all the toilets with fresh water (instead of the default salt water). He says it is because, since the fresh water tank is big enough, he prefers it as salt water stagnant/pooling in the pipes, was making the heads smell funky.
Thoughts? Should I leave it as is, or have him switch it back? Does salt water in the pipes really make the place smell?

 

[uncledom]

Fresh water, potable water from your tanks, definitely has no odor compared to most raw water. It's your boat, do what you want. My boat was built to use the potable water for the heads and I'm happy with it.

 

[The Shadow Knows]

ZA,

This shouldn't be a problem unless it becomes a problem however, I don't see that happening.

I'm in salt water also & when finishing up at the end of the day, I keep a plastic Folgers coffee
can w/lid & fresh water. I pump the head down then add fresh water for the final day's flush. Years back I remember occasionally smelling some odors when it was only saltwater but with fresh water, there is no smell.

I also have a Raritan head & I've found that after draining all water from bowl, I pull my pump handle up about 1-1/2" & my wetted pump parts last five years on average. I just feel that salt water shortens the lifespan of wetted parts.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

No toilet designed to use sea water should ever be connected to the fresh water plumbing and every toilet mfr specifically warns against it in their installation instructions. Reason: sea water can migrate into the fresh water plumbing, contaminating the fresh water supply...and so can bacteria from bowl. People do it and most have been lucky enough to avoid problems...but that's about like saying "I jaywalk all the time and have never been hit by a car or gotten a ticket for it"...sooner or later luck always runs out.

Toilets designed to use fresh water are all designed to use PRESSURIZED flush water...and instead of an intake pump have either a built in valve or a solenoid valve installed in the intake line that opens and closes much like a faucet does. The boat's water pump must be on to flush the toilet.

There's a very simple and inexpensive way to prevent odor caused by sea water left to sit and stagnate in the toilet intake:
Sink drain thru-hulls are below the waterline on almost all sailboats. So re-route the toilet intake hose to tee or wye it into the sink drain line as close to the seacock as possible because the connection must be below waterline to work.
This will allow you to flush normally with sea water. After you’ve closed the sink drain seacock in preparation to close up the boat (you do close all seacocks before leaving the boat to sit??), fill the sink with clean fresh water and flush the toilet. Because the seacock is closed, the toilet will draw the water out of the sink, rinsing the sea water out of the entire system—intake line, pump, channel in the rim of the bowl and the discharge line,(Water poured into the bowl only rinses out the toilet discharge line). If your toilet is electric, be careful not to let it run dry…doing so can burn out the intake impeller. Or you can keep the sink drain seacock closed except when it's needed to drain the sink and flush with fresh water down the sink all the time...your choice.
It may also be necessary to keep the sink plugged except when in use, with a rubber sink plug or by installing a conveniently located shut-off valve in the drain hose. Otherwise the toilet may pull air through the sink when you try to flush, preventing the pump from priming.
--Peggie

 

[The Shadow Knows]

Peggy,

I agree with you dear. I should have been more explanative in my post.

Unless I'm doing a weekender or weekly cruise, I only use fresh water for flushing. And with the many different heads out there, ones that use joker valves and/or fresh to saltwater tie-in systems, I would not use or trust against failure.

 

[Tally Ho]

I use my hand-held shower to put some potable water in the head for a final flush for the day,

I don’t have a thru hull on my sink drain (drains out above the water line), so Peggie’s solution doesn’t work for me.

But using my shower head is super easy.

Greg

 

[seadaddler]

I have sea era and it is made to use raw water but have a shut off value so no raw water is used and use fresh water for flushing and everything last longer like the joker and no build up in the hoses and doesn’t smell bad and do have the sink drain into the head when needed.
Nick

 

[Stu Jackson]

But using my shower head is super easy.

Head Pumps 101 Why just pouring water into the bowl is NOT a good idea http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5865.msg40604.html#msg40604

I understand your situation with the thru hull above the waterline. This is for those who can make the switch.

 

[seadaddler]

As Stu has said just dumping water in is not the best thing.
My system is a sea era and have a sprayer next to head that I use to add fresh water and my head is made to use raw water which I keep off but have my sink drain into my head at the end of every day and some times let the sink drain more often into head so the whole head is getting flushed with fresh water and been doing this many years and if cruising far of shore I switch to raw water and than later on flush with fresh water.
I feel using fresh water keeps smells away and everything stays working much longer with less maitance.
Nick

 

[Richard19068]

I

I don’t have a thru hull on my sink drain (drains out above the water line), so Peggie’s solution doesn’t work for me.

Greg

Still works. My sink drain is above the waterline. You just have to plumb it a little differently. Not a big job.

 

[Tally Ho]

I didn’t say I only used my shower. I use lake water through the pump, but before I lose the boat up, I will put some fresh water in the bowl to flush out the organic material in the discharge hose.

But I will look ok at the sink drain mod...

Greg

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

Still works. My sink drain is above the waterline. You just have to plumb it a little differently. Not a big job.

Please tell me how you plumb it, 'cuz the only 2 ways I've been able to figure out are: 1.do it "backward"--relocate the sink drain line to head intake thru-hull and tee the head intake line into it there. Which isn't really practical if the head intake thru-hull is a long way from the head. Or 2. Use a 2 way valve to tee into the head intake line anywhere that's accessible and connect a hose that can be stuck into a gallon milk jug full of water. Except for those two, the only otherI've ever been able to come up with is a separate flush water tank. Which is more trouble and expense to install and keep full than it's worth.
--Peggie

 

[Richard19068]

Please tell me how you plumb it, 'cuz the only 2 ways I've been able to figure out are: 1.do it "backward"--relocate the sink drain line to head intake thru-hull and tee the head intake line into it there. Which isn't really practical if the head intake thru-hull is a long way from the head. Or 2. Use a 2 way valve to tee into the head intake line anywhere that's accessible and connect a hose that can be stuck into a gallon milk jug full of water. Except for those two, the only otherI've ever been able to come up with is a separate flush water tank. Which is more trouble and expense to install and keep full than it's worth.
--Peggie

Peggie, I wasn't responding to your comment about not connecting the toilet to the fresh water system, I was responding to Tally Ho about not being able to use your work around because his sink drain is above the waterline.

I use a garden hose Y valve teed into the sink drain. Each outlet of the Y has a valve to open or close that outlet leg. One outlet of the Y goes to the toilet pump inlet. The other outlet goes to the sink drain thru hull which is a few inches above the waterline. Raw water is teed into the hose to the toilet pump after that leg of the Y valve. This connection is close to the raw water seacock to keep retained raw water in the hose to a minimum.
I normally only flush with fresh water through the head sink and so leave the toilet raw water intake seacock closed. I normally leave the Y to the sink overboard thru hull open and the Y to the toilet pump intake closed so the sink drains normally. For flushing the toilet I close the Y to the sink overboard thru hull and open the Y to the toilet pump inlet, put some water in the sink and flush that through the toilet. When I am finished flushing the toilet I turn the Y valve back to my "normal" position with the sink draining overboard. If I want to flush with raw water I open the toilet raw water seacock and flush as above but with a stopper in the sink instead of fresh water.

It's a little late after a long weekend so I hope that is clear.

It works fine and is I think essentially what Peggie was suggesting. Just a little different.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

It's clear. It was a boat owner who gave me the idea of using the sink drain to supply toilet flush water...I was hoping you were the first one to come up with a work-around that makes it possible to use an above-waterline sink drain to supply both fresh and sea water to the toilet 'cuz that would be a real breakthrough allowing powerboats, most of which have above-waterline sink drains, to use it. So I'd have jumped on it if you had.
--Peggie

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Except for those two, the only otherI've ever been able to come up with is a separate flush water tank. Which is more trouble and expense to install and keep full than it's worth.
--Peggie

Really? I'd like to hear more about this. I have a lot of space under the V-berth where I could put a water bladder right next to the intake thru hull. I figured it would be the best place to store about 10 to 15 gallons of fresh water and tee it into the intake hose. It would be a more convenient connection than the vanity sink, which is on the opposite side of the boat from the toilet.
I'd be filling up the tank every time I go to pump-out. I figured that I would just run a garden hose thru the forward hatch to fill it. If I really want convenience, I suppose I could plumb a fill spout underneath the cushion. It sounds like a good plan to me (that I haven't implemented yet). What would be the trouble and expense?
I don't like flushing with Barnegat Bay water, so I typically mix fresh water with a cup into the bowl as I pump bay water. It helps me minimize the bay water by mixing it. I only have a 15 gallon water tank, so I really don't like the idea of filling the vanity sink from my water source for flushing the toilet.

 

[Peggie Hall HeadMistress]

I wouldn't use a bladder...a decent quality one would cost you more than a small rigid plastic tank and cheap ones have a very short life expectancy. Ronco Plastics Ronco Plastics marine Tanks has enough shapes and sizes that you shouldn't have any problem finding a small one that'll fit your budget as well as your space.
Unless you really want to flush a mix of sea and fresh water, I wouldn't just tee it into the intake line...I'd install a y-valve that would let you choose between flushing with Bay water or tank water. The tank will have to be vented, and you might also want to spec an inspection port in the top that let you fill it with a bucket or a pitcher.
But Plan B would be a lot simpler: Use a 2 way valve to tee into the head intake line anywhere that's accessible and connect a hose that can be stuck into a gallon milk jug full of water that you can use to rinse all the sea water out of the whole system before the boat will sit.

And while you're looking at tanks, you might want to consider finding space for a larger fresh water tank....15 gallons is pretty skimpy on a 27' boat. Ronco usually gives a VERY nice discount to people who order more than one tank at the same time (ask for it!).
--Peggie

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Good thoughts … a wedge shaped tank would fit nicely in the bow where I'd planned to put a collapsible. The problem is access. I'd have to take out two thru-hulls to slide one in. Even then, I would have to cut a larger access opening in the fiberglass platform. I may as well re-build the platform at that point. That's too much of a project. A collapsible can simply be stuffed into the space, then filled with water.

Because I was thinking about it, I ordered this one for $100. I figure I can't go wrong giving it a try.

https://www.amazon.com/AQUATANK2-Wa...ater+bladder&qid=1560274178&s=gateway&sr=8-36

No, with a tank, I would no longer mix with bay water. I only did that because of the discussion about simply pouring water into the bowl. It sounded like at least some water needed to come from the intake line to keep the pump functioning well - that was my purpose. I will simply plumb a freshwater line to the intake. I forgot about venting. I'll have to work that out. I'm not exactly sure how these collapsibles are supposed to work without a vent. They must have something that vents.

I wish I had more room for a larger freshwater tank but I don't. But I don't like plastic for potable water. I put in a new SS tank under the port settee where the original aluminum tank was. I do have an additional 5 gallons in the water heater. I suppose that counts, right? I could fit a 10 gallon tank under the starboard settee, but I am currently using that space for storage. I have a tank designed for that space. We have a local fabricator whom has done a great job on my custom fuel tank and water tank sizes. That's where I would go. Their price is very reasonable, too. I had them do my aluminum fuel tank and SS water tank. Certified. But I'm not going to have them do a SS tank for my toilet flush water!

 

[Richard19068]

It's clear. It was a boat owner who gave me the idea of using the sink drain to supply toilet flush water...I was hoping you were the first one to come up with a work-around that makes it possible to use an above-waterline sink drain to supply both fresh and sea water to the toilet 'cuz that would be a real breakthrough allowing powerboats, most of which have above-waterline sink drains, to use it. So I'd have jumped on it if you had.
--Peggie

Well, there is no magic is there? As Scotty on Star Trek always used to say " I cannae change the laws of physics".

Peggie. Thanks for all you have contributed over the years.

 

[jssailem]

Scott. Have you considered the effect an additional 120 lbs (15 gallons) in the boats bow will do to your balance and race profile? Will you boat continue to ride up and over waves or will you start to plow through them and take water over the bow?

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Scott. Have you considered the effect an additional 120 lbs (15 gallons) in the boats bow will do to your balance and race profile? Will you boat continue to ride up and over waves or will you start to plow through them and take water over the bow?

The beauty of water ballast is that it is removable! In our stiff winds, I expect that some added weight in the bow would help penetrate the wave action, though, and reduce the affect of being pushed or slowed as much by waves. We are already a wet ride!