Flower pot, propane stove, and cabin heating

Nov 26, 2012
2,315
Catalina 250 Bodega Bay CA
After reading this proposal for heating I was skeptical like probably most everyone else. The first try I broke a pot. Second try I used a kiln dried Italian 5" pot with flame at about 1" high. I realized right away that the peripheral radiation was excellent. Tested with a thermometer. (This reminds me of Straightlines posts, detail,detail,detail, don't misunderstand as he is one of my favorites!) The room temp was 66 degrees at table level. At overhead level it was only 71. At the next test I took the pot off. Right away the overhead temp started climbing at a rapid rate and in 5 min it was up to 80! Pot back on, within 3 minutes the temp dropped 1 degree and in 10 minutes it dropped 7 degrees! This was all done with the overhead slider cracked about 2". As far as I can determine this method seems to work amazingly well.
My perception on this is to use a 12v computer fan mounted near the stove burner with the air flow DOWN to draw fresh air from the cracked slider as well as circulate the higher air temp in the overhead.
I would think that boats that are relatively small and even larger ones for supplimental use could definitely benifit from this concept.
Centerline, others, what say you!
Chief
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
The BTU you are putting into the boat does not change but how the air moves and the heat is radiated can change... Still takes real BTU's to do anything very useful.

If you want glorified flower pot look no further than the Force Ten Cozy Cabin heater.. This is nothing more than an upside down metal flower pot in a nice stainless & brass trimmed housing... Had these heaters on three boats and removed all of them. Something about useless as boobs on a bull...:D:D
 
Nov 26, 2012
2,315
Catalina 250 Bodega Bay CA
Mainesail: I tested this concept personally so which part of this concept would you like to challenge? Your approaches usually relate to big dollars and big boats with regard to lots of documentation to overpower other inputs.
This method surprised me as it works well and I tested it on a 27' boat with good results in 50 degree outside temp. I am from California not the frozen tundra!
I think you need to understand that Maine does not represent the norm for most anything in America including temperatures.
Chief
 
Nov 6, 2006
10,048
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Understand you are happy with no guards, no oxygen depletion safety, no tip-over protection.. I know that the pot will make the air circulate differently than the burner by itself.. I prefer my Portable Buddy heater because it has safety features and heats lots better than the pot and burner .. These are about $75 http://www.mrheater.com/sporting/portable-buddy-heater.html
 
Nov 26, 2012
2,315
Catalina 250 Bodega Bay CA
kloudie 1: I have a Mr Heater; I merely tested this concept. I am testing other heating concepts, and I stated that this concept did surprise me in its efficiency. I know the safety limitations of this concept but it seems to be a viable alternative. Versatility is many times a smart consideration for your existing conditions at the particular time and situation.
Chief
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
two parts here...

first part.
I know the flowerpot trick to work fairly well, because it causes the heat to radiate.

i also know if you had a flower pot without a bottom in it but a with a cover for the top opening, and put it on the burner right side up, the shape of the sides will help to radiate the heat downward a substantial amount more.
but on a regular sized stove top it gets reflected back upwards by the stove top itself.
on a small single burner coleman stove setting on the floor, using the shape of the container inverted, you can immediately tell the difference on your feet.

but its true what MaineSail said, the BTU output doesnt change...and you need enough of them, but its not always the amount of the BTU's being created by the device that count as much as how they are distributed.. it depends on the temperture differential between outside and inside, and how much air transfer between the two.
if you have all the heat rising to the top of the cabin and its 85 degrees up there, but at your toes its only 60, then there is going to be some discomfort, and a bit more actual loss of the usable heat, than if it was mixed up in the cabin...

if you have a concentrated amount of heat at the ceiling and that is where the vent is, the hotter the air, the faster it will want to escape thru the hatch..(its concentrated, so a small volume can mean a lot of BTU's escaping).
as it leaves the boat thru the hatch an equal volume amount of cold displacement air will creep in around the companionway, and settle to the floor. air that has to be heated again, to maintain comfort

if you could mix the two, you will slow down the interior/exterior exchange a small amount, but the greatest difference is that you will be warming your feet, while putting some of the heat to use to warm the other stuff in the boat.

because, as the heat is distributed more evenly thruout the interior, the heat will slowly be absorbed into the surrounding structure that makes up the space, so even though you are losing less heat out the escape hatch, and can be somewhat more comfortable, you still need a good BTU output to bring the interior up to a given temperture. once everything equalizes, the btu output can be cut back a little...

the flower pots only purpose is to better radiate what is being produced....

the second part...
and im only sayin', not preaching, cuz i believe we should all get to make our own decisions based on the information that has been offered to us:D...

I am a proponent of having an oxygen depletion sensor, a CO sensor, and a Gas sniffer on board... I personally dont have a gas sniffer (yet), but the other two offer some comfort in the evenings when we are boarded up and have the furnace going, even though its a vented furnace, there is always something that can go wrong.....

it can be a very dangerous practice to use an open flame for interior heating of an enclosed space, and a 2 inch opening in the overhead hatch is not adequate. you also need a dedicated inlet....
there are two things that can go wrong... oxygen depletion and carbon monoxide (CO) poisoning...
the ONLY reason they are so dangerous is because you only get one chance with them..... once past a certain threshold, its lights out.
CO gas settles, so as long as you are up and moving around you may be fine, but once you set down, or go to bed, it can get you.
oxygen depletion just makes you tired, so you nod off... there isnt any waking up from either condition.

the catalytic heaters somehow catalyze the CO gases and the only concern then is O2 depletion, which if the directions are followed, its not much of an issue

so if i were to offer any advice, it wouldnt be to tell you not to do whatever it is you want to do, but only to "be aware... and, be responsible":D
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Mainesail: I tested this concept personally so which part of this concept would you like to challenge? Your approaches usually relate to big dollars and big boats with regard to lots of documentation to overpower other inputs.
This method surprised me as it works well and I tested it on a 27' boat with good results in 50 degree outside temp. I am from California not the frozen tundra!
I think you need to understand that Maine does not represent the norm for most anything in America including temperatures.
Chief
I did not challenge anything. You observed changes in the way the heat is radiated and yes, that happens.

Unless you want to change physics then the BTU put into the room by the burner did not change, only the way the heat is radiated changed. You can nicely heat a small boat with an oven or burner and putting a flower pot on top makes it feel more like a radiator or fire place.

If the burner puts out 4000 BTU putting a flower pot over does not change that. It does change how that heat feels to you and how it is radiated out into the room.

It can also make for more even heat distribution which makes you feel warmer with the same amount of BTU's.. The burners BTU output efficiency did not change, the only way to do that is with a bigger orifice or more fuel but the way you felt the heat and the way it was distributed did change.

A fan added would disburse this heat more evenly and again, change how it feels and how evenly the temp is throughout the cabin. Still the fan and the pot don't change how many BTU's you are putting into the cabin just how even or how the heat is radiated throughout the cabin...
 
Nov 26, 2012
2,315
Catalina 250 Bodega Bay CA
centerline: The dedicated inlet would be the down draft 12v computer fan mounted next to the burner. Yes, circulation of air is important for deck lower level temps. I have the monitors but, realize that I am not using these procedures, merely testing them.
Chief
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
centerline: The dedicated inlet would be the down draft 12v computer fan mounted next to the burner. Yes, circulation of air is important for deck lower level temps. I have the monitors but, realize that I am not using these procedures, merely testing them.
Chief
i would assume the computer fan would be bringing in outside air.... the fan is actually a better option than a passive vent, such as an open hole (portlight)...

when I was about 17 and I moved out on my own, i was living in a small camp trailer, and ive tested the theory's pretty thoroughly in an attempt to find a way to get more usable heat from a small flame, and I have actually used what ive learned from time to time over the years since then....

and what ive learned in the years since, causes me to be surprised that i survived my early days:D
 
Sep 30, 2013
3,582
1988 Catalina 22 North Florida
Always wondered about using one burner on my Origo stove as a heater, turned as low as it would go ...
 
Nov 26, 2012
2,315
Catalina 250 Bodega Bay CA
centerline: Yes, ignorance is sometimes bliss. I am a forklift drivers son with barely a highschool diploma to start out with. It has been a long but rewarding trip and I have learned much and continue to learn more! I have fun with these experiments as I know you do as well. I got from this experiment that the circulation of the heat/air seems more relevant than the BTU's. To me it is obvious that the BTU rating does not change, so what is the improved heating perception and actual readings? We know its circulation of the air!
My best, Chief
 
Nov 26, 2012
2,315
Catalina 250 Bodega Bay CA
Dixiedawg: It works, but I sure would not sleep with it! All I was looking for is alternatives to our other limited concepts. Chief
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
I think the point is you don't need 800 degree air stuck to the top of the salon, the flower pot also increases the volume of air that is heated (to a lower temp) and helps the thermal radiation move into the far parts of the room where it also warms the objects which makes the room feel warm.
 
Nov 26, 2012
2,315
Catalina 250 Bodega Bay CA
Bill: I agree, whatever BTU's you can produce had better be presented to the whole room, not just to the ceiling! Thats why this concept works! Thanks for your input, Chief
 
Mar 1, 2012
2,182
1961 Rhodes Meridian 25 Texas coast
I've used the technique quite a few times, on my one burner kero stove. As Dylan would say- works a treat.. First I ever heard of the flower pot use was from a book by Eric Hiscock, 40 years ago. He and Susan used the idea aboard Wanderer.

Of course i would NEVER go to bed with the thing running, nor did they.
 
Feb 20, 2011
8,048
Island Packet 35 Tucson, AZ/San Carlos, MX
You guys are leaving out an obvious solution.

This, and plastic underwear.

[my best Foghorn Leghorn impression] Polypropylene, that is.
 

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Nov 26, 2012
2,315
Catalina 250 Bodega Bay CA
Justsomeguy: Is that a sail cat? I thought they were the dried flat ones on the side of the road. Pick 'em up and sail them? Chief
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,669
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
Mostly I'm with Mainesail. BTUS are BTUs, and the moisture generated from burning propane is the same.

The pot does provide better radiation, IF you are in immediate proximity to the stove. I too have done some testing. However, in my case, the galley is in one of the hulls, and thus the improved radiation has no effect.

Most cold weather sailors would be better served by better clothing than worrying about 60F air at your feet. Heck, my basement is always like that in the winter. The moisture, over time, will do more harm to the insulation value of the clothing than the small amount of heat will benefit; cold climate sailors know this truth. An open flame will not dry the cabin, it will only make your clothes wet over time.

Basically, this is discussion about heating in climates so mild heating isn't needed. Just wear some fleece under layers and socks and you will be toasty. If you actually need heat--sub 50F temperatures, and certainly for sub-freezing--install a proper vented heater.
 
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