Just acquired a 1978 MacGregor 22. As I look aft from within the cabin I can see four huge blocks of styrofoam ..... basically supporting the cockpit floor. There is also some amount ofstrofoam snow in the area. am I missing flotation here? There is no styrofoam midships under the benches. Is this correct? Under the V-bunk there seems to be a lot of small blocks of styrofoam. Can someone give me a clue. Thanks!
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Foam foam foam
I have a 79 Mac 25, and you are right on. There is supposed to be large blocks in the rear of the boat, and a number of smaller ones in the bow. Nothing mi-ship, because you need to have a place to put stuff. You should have about 7-10 large blocks aft under the cockpit, and I have no idea how many up front. But there should be little movement in the V birth compartment. I took some out to set up my hockey puck transducer, but put them all back. I would leave all of the blocks where they are, and I bet I will get a lot of agreement here in the room. Congrats on the new boat. Sail on and have fun Gregg
I have a 79 Mac 25, and you are right on. There is supposed to be large blocks in the rear of the boat, and a number of smaller ones in the bow. Nothing mi-ship, because you need to have a place to put stuff. You should have about 7-10 large blocks aft under the cockpit, and I have no idea how many up front. But there should be little movement in the V birth compartment. I took some out to set up my hockey puck transducer, but put them all back. I would leave all of the blocks where they are, and I bet I will get a lot of agreement here in the room. Congrats on the new boat. Sail on and have fun Gregg
Our quarterly foam forum
Steve I too am the proud owner of a Mac 22, except my pre-date yours by 8 years. As an antique - these boats show some wear - not the least of which appears on the foam blocks. My 22 has a large single block under the cockpit, end to end, from hull support to hull support (which by the way is where your Hull number is engraved - starboard side). Up front its a jumble of smaller blocks - likely twelve or so - about the size of a square basketball- loosely placed in the V berth cavity. You can get more floatation in that space (see below) My plan is to add floatation along the aft compartment between the hull supports and the curves hull wall as well as replacing the loose blocks in the V berth cavity. Being an odd shape - I originally thought of expansion foam. The great people on this forum pursuaded me NOT TO USE EXPANSION FOAM (for many reasons). The alternative that worked best for me was packing peanuts (careful not to get the corn starch ones - they dissolve) inside heavy duty garbage bags. Advantages: *CHEAP - ABOUT $30 FOR 14 CU FT BAG (2 bags is plenty) *CLEAN - NO SPRAYING, NO SPILLAGE, NO SOLVENT FOR CLEAN UP, NO ODOUR, NO VAPOURS *FORM TO ANY SHAPE HOLE *INSTALLATION IS NOT TEMPERATURE DEPENDANT *PEANUTS DO NOT EXPAND - FOAM CONTINUES TO EXPAND AS IT CURES AND COULD FORM A POCKET THAT FORCES EXPANDING FOAM TO BULGE THE HULL *EASY TO REMOVE FOR MAINTENANCE AND RE-INSTALL - DONT EVEN ATTEMPT TO REMOVE THE FOAM AFTER IT HAS BEEN INSTALLED *IF THEY GET WET, REMOVE, DRY AND RE-INSTALL *IF PLANS CHANGE - RIP THEM OUT IN 2 MINUTES *ONE MAN INSTALLATION JOB (THREE BEER TASK) *WIFE LOVES LEFT OVERS FOR CHRISTMAS PARCELS Best Wishes Richard
Steve I too am the proud owner of a Mac 22, except my pre-date yours by 8 years. As an antique - these boats show some wear - not the least of which appears on the foam blocks. My 22 has a large single block under the cockpit, end to end, from hull support to hull support (which by the way is where your Hull number is engraved - starboard side). Up front its a jumble of smaller blocks - likely twelve or so - about the size of a square basketball- loosely placed in the V berth cavity. You can get more floatation in that space (see below) My plan is to add floatation along the aft compartment between the hull supports and the curves hull wall as well as replacing the loose blocks in the V berth cavity. Being an odd shape - I originally thought of expansion foam. The great people on this forum pursuaded me NOT TO USE EXPANSION FOAM (for many reasons). The alternative that worked best for me was packing peanuts (careful not to get the corn starch ones - they dissolve) inside heavy duty garbage bags. Advantages: *CHEAP - ABOUT $30 FOR 14 CU FT BAG (2 bags is plenty) *CLEAN - NO SPRAYING, NO SPILLAGE, NO SOLVENT FOR CLEAN UP, NO ODOUR, NO VAPOURS *FORM TO ANY SHAPE HOLE *INSTALLATION IS NOT TEMPERATURE DEPENDANT *PEANUTS DO NOT EXPAND - FOAM CONTINUES TO EXPAND AS IT CURES AND COULD FORM A POCKET THAT FORCES EXPANDING FOAM TO BULGE THE HULL *EASY TO REMOVE FOR MAINTENANCE AND RE-INSTALL - DONT EVEN ATTEMPT TO REMOVE THE FOAM AFTER IT HAS BEEN INSTALLED *IF THEY GET WET, REMOVE, DRY AND RE-INSTALL *IF PLANS CHANGE - RIP THEM OUT IN 2 MINUTES *ONE MAN INSTALLATION JOB (THREE BEER TASK) *WIFE LOVES LEFT OVERS FOR CHRISTMAS PARCELS Best Wishes Richard
Support?
I agree with oreana123. That foam busines is the cheesiest thing I have ever seen. It does not support anything in my 24. Why not use expanding foam under the cabin sole? If you seal the ends on the port settee it should hold a lot of air. No longer a sea-going dumpster!
I agree with oreana123. That foam busines is the cheesiest thing I have ever seen. It does not support anything in my 24. Why not use expanding foam under the cabin sole? If you seal the ends on the port settee it should hold a lot of air. No longer a sea-going dumpster!
Awww, common John...
what do you REALLY think?
Anyway, good one, although I'm not taking a position on this one! I've sailed on both kinds and have never sunk in either one of 'em. You pays your money and you takes your chances.
what do you REALLY think?
Anyway, good one, although I'm not taking a position on this one! I've sailed on both kinds and have never sunk in either one of 'em. You pays your money and you takes your chances.Now wait just a darn minute John,
you get me hangin' my butt out here and then you DELETE your post??? LOL...I'm going to have to start copying and storing to save face now. BTW, thanks to John Dawson, my previous post is entirely irrelevant (at least this is one time I have someone else to blame it on ).
you get me hangin' my butt out here and then you DELETE your post??? LOL...I'm going to have to start copying and storing to save face now. BTW, thanks to John Dawson, my previous post is entirely irrelevant (at least this is one time I have someone else to blame it on
).He didn't DELETE his post.
Unfortunately John submitted his post without any foam flotation. After being hit directly abeam by Dave's post, John's post suffered a knock-down and quickly sank. The liferaft couldn't keep the post afloat as it wasn't inflated and the pump was burried under tons of useful equipment.
Unfortunately John submitted his post without any foam flotation. After being hit directly abeam by Dave's post, John's post suffered a knock-down and quickly sank. The liferaft couldn't keep the post afloat as it wasn't inflated and the pump was burried under tons of useful equipment.
Foam
I didn't delete anything. I always thought the foam thing was dreamed up by marketing salesmen who wanted to get the non-sailor type to buy the boat. Prospective buyer man turns to wife and says ("Honey, there is no way this boat can sink-don't worry"). I think it would be better to say, "this d#$% boat will sink if you hole it so sail and equip accordingly". John S
I didn't delete anything. I always thought the foam thing was dreamed up by marketing salesmen who wanted to get the non-sailor type to buy the boat. Prospective buyer man turns to wife and says ("Honey, there is no way this boat can sink-don't worry"). I think it would be better to say, "this d#$% boat will sink if you hole it so sail and equip accordingly". John S
Why foam?
I too have a Mac, the 26S. I also have a Com Pac 27/2. It's interesting to note the cheaper the boat, the more foam to float it. I have a new revelation that my Com Pac will not float if the hull is opened or if water comes in. So, consider lots of insurance, remove the foam and if you have enough damage, hope the boat sinks as quickly as possible. After you've all gotten off while "wearing your pfd's". Seriously, I believe the foam is a good thing but air bags with co2 cartidges would be better and would allow for stowing more crap in your boat such as I do. Drives my wife nuts. Boat safely and worry more about the unexpected. We had a tornado here in the Spring and had 4 boats sink that were foam filled. Go figure. Put latches on your hatches, and if the weather is bad enough get off the water or secure the hatch boards. Steve Paul
I too have a Mac, the 26S. I also have a Com Pac 27/2. It's interesting to note the cheaper the boat, the more foam to float it. I have a new revelation that my Com Pac will not float if the hull is opened or if water comes in. So, consider lots of insurance, remove the foam and if you have enough damage, hope the boat sinks as quickly as possible. After you've all gotten off while "wearing your pfd's". Seriously, I believe the foam is a good thing but air bags with co2 cartidges would be better and would allow for stowing more crap in your boat such as I do. Drives my wife nuts. Boat safely and worry more about the unexpected. We had a tornado here in the Spring and had 4 boats sink that were foam filled. Go figure. Put latches on your hatches, and if the weather is bad enough get off the water or secure the hatch boards. Steve Paul
Sink and Insurance
Well I should start this out by saying that I work for an insurance company, and it is this very attitude that is driving all insurance rates through the roof. The foam keeps a boat afloat, just like seatbelt save lives, and lifejackets safe lives too. If we all take the mindset that our insurance will take care of everyting, we'll all be right back here in this forum in ten years, complaining about how expensive it is to get insurance and wondering how to get it at all. Think of insurance as a way to help in a major loss, not as an alternative to safety and a way to get a new boat. Okay, I am off the *box
Well I should start this out by saying that I work for an insurance company, and it is this very attitude that is driving all insurance rates through the roof. The foam keeps a boat afloat, just like seatbelt save lives, and lifejackets safe lives too. If we all take the mindset that our insurance will take care of everyting, we'll all be right back here in this forum in ten years, complaining about how expensive it is to get insurance and wondering how to get it at all. Think of insurance as a way to help in a major loss, not as an alternative to safety and a way to get a new boat. Okay, I am off the *box
Excellant
Exactly. I am thinking about my 26D (with the foam in it) sitting low in the water after partially sinking. Each wave that comes along in my fantasy rolls the boat over and over. Sometimes it comes up with the daggerboard sticking up. Other times on the side. We all wear pfds so the hull is not much better than nothing at all, and with the dismasting, the boat might not be safe to approach without getting entangled. If it would only sink, I could collect on the insurance. Now the craft represents a serious navigational hazard and the CG wants it removed immediately. Luckily the foam is holding the hull up so occasionally the registration is visible, so the owner can be tracked down, fined and made to pay salvage fees. I have placed explosives strategically on my hull to make sure that sucker goes down w/o a trace. This winter, the foam gets removed so my classic can sink peacefully, when the time comes. I guess I better get a new liferaft and keep it handy. John S
Exactly. I am thinking about my 26D (with the foam in it) sitting low in the water after partially sinking. Each wave that comes along in my fantasy rolls the boat over and over. Sometimes it comes up with the daggerboard sticking up. Other times on the side. We all wear pfds so the hull is not much better than nothing at all, and with the dismasting, the boat might not be safe to approach without getting entangled. If it would only sink, I could collect on the insurance. Now the craft represents a serious navigational hazard and the CG wants it removed immediately. Luckily the foam is holding the hull up so occasionally the registration is visible, so the owner can be tracked down, fined and made to pay salvage fees. I have placed explosives strategically on my hull to make sure that sucker goes down w/o a trace. This winter, the foam gets removed so my classic can sink peacefully, when the time comes. I guess I better get a new liferaft and keep it handy. John S
Question for Greg the Insurance Guy
Hey Greg. If the floatation was standard issue from the factory and sopmebody deliberately removed it - would that constitue tampering with a safety device? How would that impact the insurability and/or the claim status. I suspect that if I removed the seatbelts from my Explorer and a passinger was killed in my car - that I would be hearing from somebody pretty quick. the law *grr - their insurance company*grr , etc. Comments SVP.
Hey Greg. If the floatation was standard issue from the factory and sopmebody deliberately removed it - would that constitue tampering with a safety device? How would that impact the insurability and/or the claim status. I suspect that if I removed the seatbelts from my Explorer and a passinger was killed in my car - that I would be hearing from somebody pretty quick. the law *grr - their insurance company*grr , etc. Comments SVP.
foam?
Foam considered it is a great and cheap way to provide that the boat floats at least long enough to get help. One thing about larger boats is they all come with more than one water emptying device. I have two bilge pumps, one automatic and the other manual pump is a gusher in the cockpit. Except for an actual hull break I think we can keep this thing afloat for a very long time. Don't forget trapped air. That is why I mention locks for your hatches, lazarettes, etc. In a knockdown these can come open and fill quickly before you can right yourself. I know most Macs don't have cockpit lockers but mine at least has the big one in back. Would hold a lot of water. Why is it that Macs don't come with pumps? Must be too expensive. Wire the pumps direct with both manual and auto position. a pump can run for awhile and if the weather is wild you might not hear it. One worries about all of this stuff and the bottom line is your forget the hot dogs. Oh well. *pop Good sailing Steve
Foam considered it is a great and cheap way to provide that the boat floats at least long enough to get help. One thing about larger boats is they all come with more than one water emptying device. I have two bilge pumps, one automatic and the other manual pump is a gusher in the cockpit. Except for an actual hull break I think we can keep this thing afloat for a very long time. Don't forget trapped air. That is why I mention locks for your hatches, lazarettes, etc. In a knockdown these can come open and fill quickly before you can right yourself. I know most Macs don't have cockpit lockers but mine at least has the big one in back. Would hold a lot of water. Why is it that Macs don't come with pumps? Must be too expensive. Wire the pumps direct with both manual and auto position. a pump can run for awhile and if the weather is wild you might not hear it. One worries about all of this stuff and the bottom line is your forget the hot dogs. Oh well. *pop Good sailing Steve
Legaleeze
I know we're all cutting up here and having fun but buying a boat with a safety item missing is going to be the owner's fault. As captain of any vessel, it's your responsibility to maintain to a general best knowledge it's (the vessels) safety status. True you could sue the seller but these sales are "as is". That is why a buyer of a more expensive boat will have a survey by a licensed surveyor. Get that Coast Guard certificate and safety inspection. It will keep you thinking safety and show you at least are responsible. Not like the -3sigma bass fisherman that passes you at 90mph. We had a near fatality a few weeks ago on our lake. We were rafted for the night when the VHF went off that a child had drowned in another cove where power boaters raft up. That's not a bad thing ( I was a power boater once) but it seems they were all swimming off the back of the boat and were not watching the kids drift around to the front. Found out later that someone was able to administer CPR and the child is now fine. No life jacket.... whew that's a bummer. Lesson is, be aware at all times. Crap happens. Steve
I know we're all cutting up here and having fun but buying a boat with a safety item missing is going to be the owner's fault. As captain of any vessel, it's your responsibility to maintain to a general best knowledge it's (the vessels) safety status. True you could sue the seller but these sales are "as is". That is why a buyer of a more expensive boat will have a survey by a licensed surveyor. Get that Coast Guard certificate and safety inspection. It will keep you thinking safety and show you at least are responsible. Not like the -3sigma bass fisherman that passes you at 90mph. We had a near fatality a few weeks ago on our lake. We were rafted for the night when the VHF went off that a child had drowned in another cove where power boaters raft up. That's not a bad thing ( I was a power boater once) but it seems they were all swimming off the back of the boat and were not watching the kids drift around to the front. Found out later that someone was able to administer CPR and the child is now fine. No life jacket.... whew that's a bummer. Lesson is, be aware at all times. Crap happens. Steve
Is it covered????
Neglect: Meaning neglect of the insured to use all reasonable means to save and preserve property at and after the time of a loss, or when property is endangered. This what an Underwriter told me. I am still waiting on Claims to get back to me. More to come. But let's think common sense here and leave it there. The Manufacturer designed it to be there. It should stay.
Neglect: Meaning neglect of the insured to use all reasonable means to save and preserve property at and after the time of a loss, or when property is endangered. This what an Underwriter told me. I am still waiting on Claims to get back to me. More to come. But let's think common sense here and leave it there. The Manufacturer designed it to be there. It should stay.
Common sense beats Bravado everytime
I'll be interested to hear what the Claims Agents says. I suspect that they would have grounds to refuse payment on the basis that reasonable care was not exercised when the owner removed a piece of safety equipment (based on the prudent person measure). I'll give up the storage space to know that if I get holed by a dead-head I can keep the Admiral and the kids out of the water and on the boat until help come. I've had hypotermia once and it's no fun. I wouldn't want to subject my 6 yr old daughter to that just so I have extra space for more junk onboard.
I'll be interested to hear what the Claims Agents says. I suspect that they would have grounds to refuse payment on the basis that reasonable care was not exercised when the owner removed a piece of safety equipment (based on the prudent person measure). I'll give up the storage space to know that if I get holed by a dead-head I can keep the Admiral and the kids out of the water and on the boat until help come. I've had hypotermia once and it's no fun. I wouldn't want to subject my 6 yr old daughter to that just so I have extra space for more junk onboard.
Not Covered
Well everything has come in, and if the foam is pulled out, and the boat sinks, it more than likely will NOT be covered, and you will be out the boat, the money. But you will have a lot of foam that you could give your kids to play with. I say, keep it there, and find new and creative ways to store your extra gear. Sorry for the news, but I would hate to see anyone loose a boat or anything just cause they wanted more storage space. Happy & Safe Sailing!!!
Well everything has come in, and if the foam is pulled out, and the boat sinks, it more than likely will NOT be covered, and you will be out the boat, the money. But you will have a lot of foam that you could give your kids to play with. I say, keep it there, and find new and creative ways to store your extra gear. Sorry for the news, but I would hate to see anyone loose a boat or anything just cause they wanted more storage space. Happy & Safe Sailing!!!
What a bunch of C#$p!
First of all, will there be an investigation, will the insurance company raise the boat and determine that the foam is missing? Secondly, who is to say when the foam was removed? If you really think the foam is a determining factor in the coverage of a sunken boat, all pro-foam owners need to contact MacGregor to find out how much foam they feel should be in the boat, and then you need to remove and measure the foam to be sure it is all there. Keep the foam or remove it, but PLEEZE dont blow smoke. John S (Also, I swear this is my last post on this subject from now on, I wont even discuss this over beers)
First of all, will there be an investigation, will the insurance company raise the boat and determine that the foam is missing? Secondly, who is to say when the foam was removed? If you really think the foam is a determining factor in the coverage of a sunken boat, all pro-foam owners need to contact MacGregor to find out how much foam they feel should be in the boat, and then you need to remove and measure the foam to be sure it is all there. Keep the foam or remove it, but PLEEZE dont blow smoke. John S (Also, I swear this is my last post on this subject from now on, I wont even discuss this over beers)
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