Fitzgerald report

capta

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Jun 4, 2009
4,766
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
I think compliance with VTSS is optional at least I hope it is for small sailboats at least
The last place I'd want to be on a sailboat going between 6 and 8 knots would be anywhere near any traffic separation zones. It can be a bit nerve wracking to be in a crowd of ships (in some places at times 10 or more) going anywhere from 15 to 22 knots. To the best of my knowledge they weren't designed for small craft, and we are not required nor encouraged to use them.
 
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Jul 29, 2017
169
Catalina 380 Los Angeles
When crossing the Traffic separation zones here in the SoCal waters, I make a point to make my way across as fast as possible at right angles. I now have AIS which is a big factor in situational awareness. My big take away from this report is that fatigue is definitely a factor and loss of situational awareness can happen to well trained personnel. It is definitely a difficult read. My heart goes out to those impacted by these tragedies. Like any accident, both of these had a chain of events any of which if broken would have resulted in at most a near hit. I was flabbergasted to learn that the crew had lack of understanding how helm control was transferred and further more, during the crew brief, no one discussed the transfer of helm control or splitting the duties. This was clearly a command failure. Even on my small boat I make sure everyone knows how to steer the boat, start and most importantly STOP the engine. I brief leaving the dock and returning to the dock and also what is expected from all when we are transiting the busy area from the dock to the more open waters. As an item here, I also make sure EVERYONE knows the location and operation of fire extinguishers. All in all this is a sober reminder of the dangers faced on the sea.
 
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Mar 31, 2013
234
O'day 23 Pa
wow but ..as it should be, at least the military retains responsibility of actions, or inaction's.
Now if they can prove it's a training issue, fair play to them, but when you are a commander of a vessel, any size....command it!
 

Mikem

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Dec 20, 2009
820
Hunter 466 Bremerton
News today says the two skippers will face negligent homicide charges along with several junior officers and a Chief Petty Officer. This month's Naval Institute Proceedings went into some detail about the collisions. Some facts. 1. In the name of efficiency manning on Aegis Class Cruisers has been gradually reduced from 324 to 254. 2. In 1989 with 600 ships 100 ships were at deployed at sea. Today with 277 ships the same 100 ships are still deployed with increasing presence by Iran, China, Russia and the North Korean issue. Iran, China, and North Korea share many of those assets. 3. In 2003 the Surface Warfare Officer School was discontinued in favor of an "online" course. Budget strains brought on by sequestration and continuing resolutions were also cited. A culture prevailed that no Commanding Officer would refuse to get underway despite manning, maintenance or training shortfalls. An editorial in today's Wall Street Journal described our military's fading readiness.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
I sincerely doubt that. After some 50 years of interaction with US and British military vessels, both from encounters on the water and visits aboard the vessels in port as a guest, I think there is a very big difference between the professionalism of the two services. I believe this is mostly because the British naval personnel are treated as adults by their service and the Americans are treated as children by theirs.
Indeed. The USN has forgotten how to manage ships at sea. Part of this has got to be how the USN now recruits... I have a friend who is a navy aviator. He called the carriers floating High Schools. A handful of adults managing 4500 male and female teenagers. Half the time was spend managing discipline.
 
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Gunni

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Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
The USN has been crewing their ships with youngsters since..forever. These include the bright capable folks who keep flyboys well fed, their rides in good working order, their weapons at ready, all while getting the CVN on location and back. Some of them crew those ugly rotary wing craft which seem ridiculous until the day some little Lord comes up short to the flight deck and must be recovered. Delivered to the care of bright capable young sailors eager to do their job and serve, the circle unbroken.

None of this has anything to do with the deck officers who violated Rules of Navigation and got people killed. Unless you read the after action reports concerning the exceptional performance of the Fire Control teams, enlisted youngsters mostly. Those guys reduced the casualty list.
 
Feb 14, 2014
7,399
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
The USN has forgotten how to manage ships at sea.
A bit broad brush condemnation. :confused:
USN has ≈430 active ships, not counting USCG.

They have two never ending tasks, in order of their priority.
1) Safety of the USA
2) Safety of their Ship and crew.

Jim...
 
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Jun 2, 2004
3,390
Hunter 23.5 Fort Walton Yacht Club, Florida
I am thinking this could go down in a similar way as the Billy Mitchell Court Martial. It will be interesting to see if any of them have the cojones to fall on their sword the way Mitchell did.

Add up how many Admirals we had when there were 600 ships and how many we have now.

All those extra Admirals have to be in charge of something they have to be telling someone to do something and numbers to show how important they and the programs they administer are.

The results to the guys who are out there running the fleet are all sorts of extra demands that take away from and have no added benefit to the actual job they were trained for.

Not just the Navy is guilty of this. It has become a real moral issue for the Air Force and I am sure for the Army as well.
Those 19 year old Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Airman will astound you with how well they can perform their mission if the Captains, Colonels, Admirals and Generals will quit putting barriers in their way.
 
Feb 2, 2010
373
Island Packet 37 Hull #2 Harpswell Me
Very poor seamanship by both USN boats. No mention of AIS so i might guess they were passive for some stupid security reason.
 
May 1, 2011
4,189
Pearson 37 Lusby MD
No mention of AIS so i might guess they were passive for some stupid security reason.
Neither ship was broadcasting on their AIS. USN rules have been changed now to direct active use of AIS in traffic separation schemes and other high traffic areas.
 
Aug 22, 2017
1,609
Hunter 26.5 West Palm Beach
Indeed. The USN has forgotten how to manage ships at sea. Part of this has got to be how the USN now recruits... I have a friend who is a navy aviator. He called the carriers floating High Schools. A handful of adults managing 4500 male and female teenagers. Half the time was spend managing discipline.
Just out of curiosity, have you walked the proverbial mile in those moccasins yourself?
 

Mikem

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Dec 20, 2009
820
Hunter 466 Bremerton
Maybe. But we are talking about a systemic failure. They've admitted as such.
Jack, as a retired aviator, ship's navigator (took a carrier to the gulf and back in 91), and squadron CO I have a lasting admiration for the young persons that crew those marvelous ships. The average age of personnel on carriers has probably never been higher than 22. I have witnessed their courage in combat, heroic performance during aircraft crashes on board, rescues by rescue swimmers, and fighting fires at sea. I guarantee there is nothing more terrifying than a fire at sea unless you are in an aircraft over water at night on fire (personal experience). The damage control effected in the immediate aftermath of these two collisions were in a word outstanding and possible only through persistent training and personal fortitude. Damage control also saved USS Samuel Roberts in 1988 when she hit a mine and USS Cole when hit by a suicide bomber. I encourage you to read the articles in the January "Naval Institute Proceedings". You are correct that this is a systemic failure and the causes and fixes are many and years in the making. Let us hope the fixes are quick and effective. The blood and treasure of this nation depends on it. Stand for the flag, kneel for the fallen.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Just out of curiosity, have you walked the proverbial mile in those moccasins yourself?
No. As I made it very clear, I was reporting a what a friend and long-time naval officer said.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Jack, as a retired aviator, ship's navigator (took a carrier to the gulf and back in 91), and squadron CO I have a lasting admiration for the young persons that crew those marvelous ships. The average age of personnel on carriers has probably never been higher than 22. I have witnessed their courage in combat, heroic performance during aircraft crashes on board, rescues by rescue swimmers, and fighting fires at sea. I guarantee there is nothing more terrifying than a fire at sea unless you are in an aircraft over water at night on fire (personal experience). The damage control effected in the immediate aftermath of these two collisions were in a word outstanding and possible only through persistent training and personal fortitude. Damage control also saved USS Samuel Roberts in 1988 when she hit a mine and USS Cole when hit by a suicide bomber. I encourage you to read the articles in the January "Naval Institute Proceedings". You are correct that this is a systemic failure and the causes and fixes are many and years in the making. Let us hope the fixes are quick and effective. The blood and treasure of this nation depends on it. Stand for the flag, kneel for the fallen.
I agree with everything you say.
 
Jan 4, 2010
1,037
Farr 30 San Francisco
There was no indication they were even LISTENING on AIS, just ridiculous. Considering the CO got tagged in his quarters I wonder how much time there was between the actual collision and the realization that there was going to be a collision or perhaps more likely that there had been a collision.
 
Feb 2, 2010
373
Island Packet 37 Hull #2 Harpswell Me
First, i think the charges against the two captains are to set an example and as a warning to others.
It would also appear to hide the facts that far more senior officers up the chain of command, all the way from Annapolis to the Far East fleet have been negligent.
While flying military aircraft we had a problem with CRM, crew resource management, ie, someone of junior rank being afraid to criticize a more senior person - this may explain why not one person on the bridge did not question what was not happening to avoid a collision, assuming anyone on the bridge had enough awareness to realize that the ship was in imminent danger. In my dealings with the USN this is indeed a problem.
Basic training for watch personnel is obviously lacking - this should be an easy fix, the other problems are more difficult.