We had a 27 mile race on Saturday, and conditions were great for the boat (H320). We took first in fleet of 25 or so boats racing by about 3 minutes (corrected) with all boats finishing with 20-30 minutes of each other. This was using my club rating of 201. If using my assigned PHRF, I would have been well down in the pack. This year on appeal, I received 6 seconds, and will appeal again this year. It seems a sahme to have to race and loose for years before you can get a competitive rating from PHRF. I wonder how many Hunters there are out there that just don't race due to the ratings? Even with perfect conditions, my PHRF rating was too low to place. Without perfection, the boat hangs in but is well back. Oh well, it was a great day to be on the water, and the first felt good, for it was my first first.
- Status
Port Huron Location...
Ed, Port Huron is located on Lake Huron, right where it dumps into the St. Clair River on it's way to Lake St. Clair by Detroit. We race on Lake Huron, and up both the Canadian and US coasts. Stop by if your up this way. PHYC is right at the mouth of the Black River where it dumps into the St. Clair River. Steve
Ed, Port Huron is located on Lake Huron, right where it dumps into the St. Clair River on it's way to Lake St. Clair by Detroit. We race on Lake Huron, and up both the Canadian and US coasts. Stop by if your up this way. PHYC is right at the mouth of the Black River where it dumps into the St. Clair River. Steve
SHAME SHAME SHAME
SHAME ON YOU FOR ACCEPTING A PHRF of 201. I have a H-31 with shoal draft and the Lake Michigan PHRF is 162, if I had a 200 no one could touch me. You want to be on equal grounds or there is no challenge.
SHAME ON YOU FOR ACCEPTING A PHRF of 201. I have a H-31 with shoal draft and the Lake Michigan PHRF is 162, if I had a 200 no one could touch me. You want to be on equal grounds or there is no challenge.
Jim, No Shame at all...
Jim, I have no shame at all with that rating, and just for the record, it is a club rating, not PHRF. At this point, I am still learning all the ways to make th boat go fast, and then trying to remember them at the right times. From what I can tell, there seem to be very few Hunters that race, and the comments I hear most from owners is the the ratings are not competitive. Why race if you loose all the time? Last year I spent the year at the end of the pack. This year is a little better, but I still have a lot of learning to do and long way to go. I have found that the boat does well in 15 knts of wind, but very poorly in light air. My FIF was due to strong air and a single point of sail from start to finish. I tend to point a little higher than other boats in strong air, so that helped. Again, I am just learning what makes the boat go. As for your rating, it may be equal for you. If so, I am happy for you. For me, I'll take what I can, and would love to hear from others with the same boat to know how they are doing. Just for the record, how do you place against the "race" boats with corrected time in your fleet? From what I understand about PHRF, you should get FIF about 5% or so all the ratings are right. The boats being equal (by handicap), the weather in a particular boats favor on that day, and the skipper making the fewest mistakes equals the overall win. Last point: Why should someone have to loose for years and years based upon a handicap? I am beginning at this (second year racing), but there are times that I manage to do enough things right to not only feel good, but place well also. If all I did was loose, maybe the racing wouldn't be as fun. There is no shame in that rating for me. If and when I win consistantly, then the rating should drop accordingly. Until that time, the racing should be fun, at least on the club level.
Jim, I have no shame at all with that rating, and just for the record, it is a club rating, not PHRF. At this point, I am still learning all the ways to make th boat go fast, and then trying to remember them at the right times. From what I can tell, there seem to be very few Hunters that race, and the comments I hear most from owners is the the ratings are not competitive. Why race if you loose all the time? Last year I spent the year at the end of the pack. This year is a little better, but I still have a lot of learning to do and long way to go. I have found that the boat does well in 15 knts of wind, but very poorly in light air. My FIF was due to strong air and a single point of sail from start to finish. I tend to point a little higher than other boats in strong air, so that helped. Again, I am just learning what makes the boat go. As for your rating, it may be equal for you. If so, I am happy for you. For me, I'll take what I can, and would love to hear from others with the same boat to know how they are doing. Just for the record, how do you place against the "race" boats with corrected time in your fleet? From what I understand about PHRF, you should get FIF about 5% or so all the ratings are right. The boats being equal (by handicap), the weather in a particular boats favor on that day, and the skipper making the fewest mistakes equals the overall win. Last point: Why should someone have to loose for years and years based upon a handicap? I am beginning at this (second year racing), but there are times that I manage to do enough things right to not only feel good, but place well also. If all I did was loose, maybe the racing wouldn't be as fun. There is no shame in that rating for me. If and when I win consistantly, then the rating should drop accordingly. Until that time, the racing should be fun, at least on the club level.
Tisk, Tisk, Tisk,
A 201 rating for an H320? How did you get that one by the PHRF committee? Do you have any advice on how I can sandbag my rating? Ratings are supposed to be against the speed potential of the boat's design, not skill level/equipment condition. This is not golf handicapping you know. That boat ought to be rated around 170. I calculate that you are getting a 30 second a mile "gift" which works out to over 13 minutes on your race. That means if you could see your competition ahead of you, then you'd have beaten him. What were the ratings of the boats you raced? If you got a 201, then a Catalina 320 should be receiving something around 210. Around here, ratings this high are usually reserved for swing keel trailer boats.
A 201 rating for an H320? How did you get that one by the PHRF committee? Do you have any advice on how I can sandbag my rating? Ratings are supposed to be against the speed potential of the boat's design, not skill level/equipment condition. This is not golf handicapping you know. That boat ought to be rated around 170. I calculate that you are getting a 30 second a mile "gift" which works out to over 13 minutes on your race. That means if you could see your competition ahead of you, then you'd have beaten him. What were the ratings of the boats you raced? If you got a 201, then a Catalina 320 should be receiving something around 210. Around here, ratings this high are usually reserved for swing keel trailer boats.
Come On Guys
..he said it was a club rating, not a PHRF rating. Lots of clubs get members out by sponsoring cruising classes. My own handicap is 20 over PHRF, as are most competitors. The general idea is to get boats out onto the water as an intro to PHRF competition or as its own form of competition. The PHRF is normally used as a handy starting place, but it could be something else too. Rules vary by club. Increases in rating for three-blade props, roller-furling sails, dodgers, etc. Decreases for laminated sails, folding props, etc. Some give credit for beginners. Some even have humorous adjustments. Now, permit me to climb on my soap box for a moment and say its a GOOD thing these exist. Remember the discussion about sailing's possible declination as a popular sport? Well, having a boat and crew truly competitive for PHRF (and most other handicaps) involves a large commitment of money and time, exceeding what many recreational sailors are prepared to commit. This provides a congenial alternative. In SoCal, this participation often represents 2/3 of a fleet, and many series would be dead but for the class. I think there is a need being filled in this grass-roots effort. Down from soap box. Rick D.
..he said it was a club rating, not a PHRF rating. Lots of clubs get members out by sponsoring cruising classes. My own handicap is 20 over PHRF, as are most competitors. The general idea is to get boats out onto the water as an intro to PHRF competition or as its own form of competition. The PHRF is normally used as a handy starting place, but it could be something else too. Rules vary by club. Increases in rating for three-blade props, roller-furling sails, dodgers, etc. Decreases for laminated sails, folding props, etc. Some give credit for beginners. Some even have humorous adjustments. Now, permit me to climb on my soap box for a moment and say its a GOOD thing these exist. Remember the discussion about sailing's possible declination as a popular sport? Well, having a boat and crew truly competitive for PHRF (and most other handicaps) involves a large commitment of money and time, exceeding what many recreational sailors are prepared to commit. This provides a congenial alternative. In SoCal, this participation often represents 2/3 of a fleet, and many series would be dead but for the class. I think there is a need being filled in this grass-roots effort. Down from soap box. Rick D.
PHRF Ratings VS Finishing
Jim/George, Since you guys are so proud of your low PHRF ratings, I pose the question again: How do you guys do in comparison to the fleet, not just your class? When was the last time in your club that a small or mid-sized boat boat won F-in-F? By the way, to increase your PHRF rating you race in a boat that few people race in, loose for years, and gather data in every race that you can that your type of boat races in. Then compare that data to every other boat that raced in that fleet and see how you did. Right now I am gathering data, and loosing. Any data that you could provide would be appreciated, but you can keep your Tisks and Shames. Steve
Jim/George, Since you guys are so proud of your low PHRF ratings, I pose the question again: How do you guys do in comparison to the fleet, not just your class? When was the last time in your club that a small or mid-sized boat boat won F-in-F? By the way, to increase your PHRF rating you race in a boat that few people race in, loose for years, and gather data in every race that you can that your type of boat races in. Then compare that data to every other boat that raced in that fleet and see how you did. Right now I am gathering data, and loosing. Any data that you could provide would be appreciated, but you can keep your Tisks and Shames. Steve
I'm not Proud, Just Frustrated
I sail up here in San Francisco. My Base YRA (PHRF) is 147. I suffer a 10 second "penalty" for an oversized jib (130 vs. 120). My one design base rating is 147 also, and I get an additional 10 secs for a furling jib. My boat is only two feet longer than Steve's and my sail area is about the same. Yet, I would have to give him close to a minute a mile! Just doesn't seem fair. Both are factory production boats with almost equal performance ratios. My club uses YRA for all their "fun" races like the beercans and "George and Gracie". I haven't finished lower than third in one design this year, but I am consistently in the bottom half in YRA (usually fighting to avoid DFL). If I could get anything near a 200, I'd consistantly finish in the top half. I just want to know how Steve was able to talk himself into such a high rating. What do the other boats get where he races? The point is mute if everybody gets a favorable rating. I've collected data going back ten years on my one design in order to get a better allowance for a fixed bladed prop. I had solid data. No dice. Neither committee was willing to change their three and five second per blade allowances. I wound up investing in a folding prop which improved my performance way beyond what the allowances would have given me.
I sail up here in San Francisco. My Base YRA (PHRF) is 147. I suffer a 10 second "penalty" for an oversized jib (130 vs. 120). My one design base rating is 147 also, and I get an additional 10 secs for a furling jib. My boat is only two feet longer than Steve's and my sail area is about the same. Yet, I would have to give him close to a minute a mile! Just doesn't seem fair. Both are factory production boats with almost equal performance ratios. My club uses YRA for all their "fun" races like the beercans and "George and Gracie". I haven't finished lower than third in one design this year, but I am consistently in the bottom half in YRA (usually fighting to avoid DFL). If I could get anything near a 200, I'd consistantly finish in the top half. I just want to know how Steve was able to talk himself into such a high rating. What do the other boats get where he races? The point is mute if everybody gets a favorable rating. I've collected data going back ten years on my one design in order to get a better allowance for a fixed bladed prop. I had solid data. No dice. Neither committee was willing to change their three and five second per blade allowances. I wound up investing in a folding prop which improved my performance way beyond what the allowances would have given me.
George...
George, I don't think you would ever get any satisfaction appealing the fixed prop penalty. It is too standard and entrenched. However, I don't understand the 10 seconds for a 130% jib. If you were racing one design with other boats running the 120 maybe, but my guess is that you are racing against other types of boats that run up to a 155% without any penalty. As I read the PHRF handicapping, penalties apply if you are over 155%. I would appeal that and get your ten seconds back. As for my case, I only have a few boats rated because the boat is fairly new. Mine was rated based upon a Hunter 32, which is quite a bit different than the 320/326. I race against all kinds of different boats, in all kinds of wind. My boat does well in 15-18 knots, but dies in light air. Last year I took the PHRF measurer out in a race with me (he is also a sailmaker and a competitor in my class), and he started me petitioning for more time. I took in info on the Hunter 32 and Hunter 310, and they gave me six seconds and told me to come back next year. They also told me I could race in PHRF classes to more accurately see how my boat does. I thought this was interesting because our club PHRF classes continue to decline as our cruising class grows. Anyway, this year I have been gathering race info on how the boat does in races that PHRF boats also race in. It seems that my boat places well out of the running all the time with my assigned PHRF rating. My FIF would have been killed by my official PHRF rating, and that was about perfect conditions for my boat with only one point of sail for a two-day race of 50 miles. With additional points of sail, or different winds, it would have been a different story. With this data, I will be back again next year for another appeal. Again, I am not concerned how I do in my class, but how I do with the fleet. If others do the same, then I would guess that quite a few smaller boats would have more time given. It is a pain, and takes a bit of work, but it will make the boat a little more competitive overall in the fleet in time. If your boat is a 34, then you would have a bit harder time because you would need to gather info from the other 34’s that race and see how they are placing in their fleets. It can be done, but it takes some work. Until things get caught up, I race with 3-4 different ratings depending on what race I am in. Just another way to play the game I guess. Also, I notice that the two that were giving me that hard time have never replied to my request of how they place in their fleets. Perhaps their rating isn’t as good as they say it is? Or maybe they are just such good sailors they race scratch? Good luck, and give it try. After a few years, your rating may rise also. Steve
George, I don't think you would ever get any satisfaction appealing the fixed prop penalty. It is too standard and entrenched. However, I don't understand the 10 seconds for a 130% jib. If you were racing one design with other boats running the 120 maybe, but my guess is that you are racing against other types of boats that run up to a 155% without any penalty. As I read the PHRF handicapping, penalties apply if you are over 155%. I would appeal that and get your ten seconds back. As for my case, I only have a few boats rated because the boat is fairly new. Mine was rated based upon a Hunter 32, which is quite a bit different than the 320/326. I race against all kinds of different boats, in all kinds of wind. My boat does well in 15-18 knots, but dies in light air. Last year I took the PHRF measurer out in a race with me (he is also a sailmaker and a competitor in my class), and he started me petitioning for more time. I took in info on the Hunter 32 and Hunter 310, and they gave me six seconds and told me to come back next year. They also told me I could race in PHRF classes to more accurately see how my boat does. I thought this was interesting because our club PHRF classes continue to decline as our cruising class grows. Anyway, this year I have been gathering race info on how the boat does in races that PHRF boats also race in. It seems that my boat places well out of the running all the time with my assigned PHRF rating. My FIF would have been killed by my official PHRF rating, and that was about perfect conditions for my boat with only one point of sail for a two-day race of 50 miles. With additional points of sail, or different winds, it would have been a different story. With this data, I will be back again next year for another appeal. Again, I am not concerned how I do in my class, but how I do with the fleet. If others do the same, then I would guess that quite a few smaller boats would have more time given. It is a pain, and takes a bit of work, but it will make the boat a little more competitive overall in the fleet in time. If your boat is a 34, then you would have a bit harder time because you would need to gather info from the other 34’s that race and see how they are placing in their fleets. It can be done, but it takes some work. Until things get caught up, I race with 3-4 different ratings depending on what race I am in. Just another way to play the game I guess. Also, I notice that the two that were giving me that hard time have never replied to my request of how they place in their fleets. Perhaps their rating isn’t as good as they say it is? Or maybe they are just such good sailors they race scratch? Good luck, and give it try. After a few years, your rating may rise also. Steve
- Status