Hello there, New sailor looking to make a good decision on a first boat. I'd be sailing on Lake Ontario and I'm looking for something to launch off the beach. I've taken a keelboat course. If I'm going to convince the wife to come out, the boat should be relatively dry. Not really looking to race, but if the boat moves quickly that'd be fun. I'm really looking for a nice sailing boat that will be somewhat forgiving on a newbie. Pulling the boat up a rocky beach with a dolly is what I'd like to be able to do. I've had my eye on a few boats in the area: Catalina 14.2, Albacore and JY - 15. Any opinions out there on these for what I want to do? Thanks! Jason
- Status
Maybe a Cat Boat?
Cat boats are easy to sail b/c there's only one sail, and they typically are pretty stable, so I've heard tell. Check http://www.yachtworld.com/ for a few; e.g. Picnic Cat, and older Beetle Cats are listed there. BEO
Cat boats are easy to sail b/c there's only one sail, and they typically are pretty stable, so I've heard tell. Check http://www.yachtworld.com/ for a few; e.g. Picnic Cat, and older Beetle Cats are listed there. BEO
I sailed Albacore dinghys for many years.
We used to get at least 10 to 15 Albacores on a typical race night in Bronte. They still get close to 100 Albacores on the start line at the Friday night races from the Toronto sailing clubs along Cherry Beach. Great Uffa Fox designed boat. Originally designed for families that lived on smaller islands in the North Sea. This was their "family vehicle" to go shopping etc. on the mainland. Here's their Canadian website, with links to the USA site, and other Albacore sites worldwide.
We used to get at least 10 to 15 Albacores on a typical race night in Bronte. They still get close to 100 Albacores on the start line at the Friday night races from the Toronto sailing clubs along Cherry Beach. Great Uffa Fox designed boat. Originally designed for families that lived on smaller islands in the North Sea. This was their "family vehicle" to go shopping etc. on the mainland. Here's their Canadian website, with links to the USA site, and other Albacore sites worldwide.
Keep the wife dry
I think if you are going to try to convince your wife that sailing is a good thing you want more stability than the boats you mention. In addition, Ontario's pebbly shorline will be hell on any fiberglass boat launched and retrieved along the narrow beach. The Junior sailing program at Olcott YC has a Catalina 22 keel boat for sale. I am not sure of the price, but could find out more if you want. I know the previous owner who donated it was asking around 3K. You cannot launch it off a beach and would need a slip or mooring, but it would be a lot less threatening to your wife than a cat or a center board boat. I am also more than willing to take you and your wife out for a sail on my 34' and discuss the + and- of boat ownership. You are only 4o minutes away. jlhiggs@roadrunner.com
I think if you are going to try to convince your wife that sailing is a good thing you want more stability than the boats you mention. In addition, Ontario's pebbly shorline will be hell on any fiberglass boat launched and retrieved along the narrow beach. The Junior sailing program at Olcott YC has a Catalina 22 keel boat for sale. I am not sure of the price, but could find out more if you want. I know the previous owner who donated it was asking around 3K. You cannot launch it off a beach and would need a slip or mooring, but it would be a lot less threatening to your wife than a cat or a center board boat. I am also more than willing to take you and your wife out for a sail on my 34' and discuss the + and- of boat ownership. You are only 4o minutes away. jlhiggs@roadrunner.com
If you want dryness and comfort in small, try...
the West Wight Potter 15. Check it out below. (There's also a 19' version). I personally don't think anybody will be happy with a Catalina 22 for very long. It's tubby, sails like a slug, and has little character and distinctiveness. At least the Potter has a certain "style" about it. I wouldn't mind having one myself!! BEO http://www.westwightpotter.com/ http://www.westwightpotter.com/potter-15/index.htm
the West Wight Potter 15. Check it out below. (There's also a 19' version). I personally don't think anybody will be happy with a Catalina 22 for very long. It's tubby, sails like a slug, and has little character and distinctiveness. At least the Potter has a certain "style" about it. I wouldn't mind having one myself!! BEO http://www.westwightpotter.com/ http://www.westwightpotter.com/potter-15/index.htm
The Albacore in action...
Not for newbies, in my opinion. The ones I mentioned would be better. See below!! http://www.johnsimages.com/gallery/144543#10844024
Not for newbies, in my opinion. The ones I mentioned would be better. See below!! http://www.johnsimages.com/gallery/144543#10844024
Lessons first
Obviously there are too many variables that are unknown. Consider my assumptions from what you wrote. You have a desire to sail, a wife who is willing but hesitant, a huge sailing ground which is 7500 square miles and can be very windy and i'm told unpleasant sometimes. You may be trying to save money with shore launching, but probably your romantically envisioning this being a great activity to get away with your wife. Without trying to be a neanderthal, as soon as you said wife, everything changes. First of all, your dreams are in her hands or you will be sailing a lot by yourself with much less romance. So you need to introduce your wife to sailing better than when she met your family. I'm suggesting lessons for both of you with a school where there will hopefully be other female students. And you are not going to show off your training, please. Let her be your classmate instead of first mate. Let her get her confidence in sailing with professional guidance, rather than being totally dependent on your sailing prowess. When she realizes that she's not going to die in a sailboat, get her to help you pick out an inexpensive boat. It really needs to be the one she wants to buy. Be patient and you will get what you want later, because the first boat is never the last boat, but it can be the last boat she goes on. You have a wonderland for life to explore together there, and canals that go everywhere else. Don't get caught up in any other feature or problem than helping your wife get the confidence to want to be in the boat with you. Even if you have to get into powerboating or buy a MacGregor powersailer first to get her comfortable on the water. There are no dogmas that are more important than keeping her wanting to be with you, unless you want to singlehand. The boat is the least of your concerns. Romance awaits.
Obviously there are too many variables that are unknown. Consider my assumptions from what you wrote. You have a desire to sail, a wife who is willing but hesitant, a huge sailing ground which is 7500 square miles and can be very windy and i'm told unpleasant sometimes. You may be trying to save money with shore launching, but probably your romantically envisioning this being a great activity to get away with your wife. Without trying to be a neanderthal, as soon as you said wife, everything changes. First of all, your dreams are in her hands or you will be sailing a lot by yourself with much less romance. So you need to introduce your wife to sailing better than when she met your family. I'm suggesting lessons for both of you with a school where there will hopefully be other female students. And you are not going to show off your training, please. Let her be your classmate instead of first mate. Let her get her confidence in sailing with professional guidance, rather than being totally dependent on your sailing prowess. When she realizes that she's not going to die in a sailboat, get her to help you pick out an inexpensive boat. It really needs to be the one she wants to buy. Be patient and you will get what you want later, because the first boat is never the last boat, but it can be the last boat she goes on. You have a wonderland for life to explore together there, and canals that go everywhere else. Don't get caught up in any other feature or problem than helping your wife get the confidence to want to be in the boat with you. Even if you have to get into powerboating or buy a MacGregor powersailer first to get her comfortable on the water. There are no dogmas that are more important than keeping her wanting to be with you, unless you want to singlehand. The boat is the least of your concerns. Romance awaits.
Why she doesn't (or might not) go sailing with you
I know many single-handed sailors or guys that come out on their boat in guy groups b/c the wife(s) won't come along. I've been among the most fortunate having a wife who thoroughly enjoys sailing, and we have spent many, many hours together underway and undersail. We've identified 3 or 4 basic items that tend to keep the wives at home when you go sailing. No. 1-- It's too cold and/or wet. Of course, wet means cold when the wind blows. Help her get the right kind of clothing for wind and spray; it's nearly always colder on the water than at home where you're getting ready. No. 2-- Uncomfortable with heeling and tippy boats. In the beginning start on stable boats; this will likely be your most important 1st decision in your future of sailing, as the fellow said. No. 3-- Stress of having a husband yell "commands" in what to most people (including her) seems to be a foreign language. (This is where a course comes in handy, as the fellow said.) Speak loudly enough to be heard, but don't yell; all that does is communicate to her that YOU'RE feeling stress! No. 4 (on small boats like you're considering)-- no potty. (There are some others, but I think those are the most significant ones; on the ocean you have to add sea sickness, maybe at No. 2 if she gets it.) What keeps her interested? Adventure and the natural beauty of being outdoors, social connections that might and do form, working as a team with you!! Good Luck!! BEO
I know many single-handed sailors or guys that come out on their boat in guy groups b/c the wife(s) won't come along. I've been among the most fortunate having a wife who thoroughly enjoys sailing, and we have spent many, many hours together underway and undersail. We've identified 3 or 4 basic items that tend to keep the wives at home when you go sailing. No. 1-- It's too cold and/or wet. Of course, wet means cold when the wind blows. Help her get the right kind of clothing for wind and spray; it's nearly always colder on the water than at home where you're getting ready. No. 2-- Uncomfortable with heeling and tippy boats. In the beginning start on stable boats; this will likely be your most important 1st decision in your future of sailing, as the fellow said. No. 3-- Stress of having a husband yell "commands" in what to most people (including her) seems to be a foreign language. (This is where a course comes in handy, as the fellow said.) Speak loudly enough to be heard, but don't yell; all that does is communicate to her that YOU'RE feeling stress! No. 4 (on small boats like you're considering)-- no potty. (There are some others, but I think those are the most significant ones; on the ocean you have to add sea sickness, maybe at No. 2 if she gets it.) What keeps her interested? Adventure and the natural beauty of being outdoors, social connections that might and do form, working as a team with you!! Good Luck!! BEO
C-22
Well, I would say that you'd want to keep the wife safe and dry with a boat that is a bit bigger than a beach-launched dagger-keel boat. Safety is going to be your main concern I'd think. I would say that the smaller boats would have a tendancy to change heel faster than a somewhat larger boat and thins may frighten the cargo. If you are sailing from the Niagara Falls, NY area you would be comfortable on Ontario with easy south west winds that may be less common for the area. If you want the wife to become used to the fun of sailing, I would be very careful about messing things up with a knockdown or getting into bad weather. Being near enough to lake Erie myself, and knowing the lake's potential conditions, I would probably not sail on that lake if I have an ample-sized smaller lake to float my boat on nearby. I have a C-22 and can't understand why someone would say that they have no character nor speed and then recommend a boat in the same post that is a knot or so slower on the hull speeds.
Well, I would say that you'd want to keep the wife safe and dry with a boat that is a bit bigger than a beach-launched dagger-keel boat. Safety is going to be your main concern I'd think. I would say that the smaller boats would have a tendancy to change heel faster than a somewhat larger boat and thins may frighten the cargo. If you are sailing from the Niagara Falls, NY area you would be comfortable on Ontario with easy south west winds that may be less common for the area. If you want the wife to become used to the fun of sailing, I would be very careful about messing things up with a knockdown or getting into bad weather. Being near enough to lake Erie myself, and knowing the lake's potential conditions, I would probably not sail on that lake if I have an ample-sized smaller lake to float my boat on nearby. I have a C-22 and can't understand why someone would say that they have no character nor speed and then recommend a boat in the same post that is a knot or so slower on the hull speeds.
Thanks for the advice
Thanks for the advice on sailing and romance from everyone. I appreciate it! Cheers, JM
Thanks for the advice on sailing and romance from everyone. I appreciate it! Cheers, JM
I have friends that refer to the small sailboats
as wet bottom sailboats. That is your bottom gets wet when you sail in those. Not everyone shares the same enthusiasm for thrills and adventure. When Nancy and I go sailing she gets very upset when the gust of wind heels us past 20 degrees. I don't know the mind set involved but being rolled that much by a wake doesn't have the same impact. But it take several hours in a quiet anchorage for her to recover from a rough passage. We usually do one sailing day and the next day at anchor. This has worked well enough that she will tell me she wants to go spend time on the boat when the weather is pleasant.
as wet bottom sailboats. That is your bottom gets wet when you sail in those. Not everyone shares the same enthusiasm for thrills and adventure. When Nancy and I go sailing she gets very upset when the gust of wind heels us past 20 degrees. I don't know the mind set involved but being rolled that much by a wake doesn't have the same impact. But it take several hours in a quiet anchorage for her to recover from a rough passage. We usually do one sailing day and the next day at anchor. This has worked well enough that she will tell me she wants to go spend time on the boat when the weather is pleasant.
A brouch got a tiny oh! from my girlfriend...
as we launched to the lower side of the boat together. But even in that experience she was an amazing trooper...rails or windows in the water; no problem. Waves splashing into cockpit; smile on her face! Only thing she cannot handle is being down below in wavy weather. We have had many an intense experience...esp. when my learning curve was angled pretty steep. We did more with less knowledge than we should have gotten away with... One time I was like....I don't know...the sun will be down soon; maybe we should sleep in the boat ramp parking lot and launch in the a.m. She asked me if I thought we would make it to the island on time and I said yeah...if everything goes o.k I THINK so, but I'm not sure. She said lets go for it (we were in a hobie 16 with tent and stuff piled up and strapped down like the beverly hillbillies wagon!). We hit the island beach right as the sun was going down...I gave her a kiss while the sun kissed the edge of the planet (I felt like kissing the ground as well; it was a pretty intense sail for me handling the chop and wind). many years and sails later, this is still one of the best sails, sunsets, and beers I have ever experienced!
as we launched to the lower side of the boat together. But even in that experience she was an amazing trooper...rails or windows in the water; no problem. Waves splashing into cockpit; smile on her face! Only thing she cannot handle is being down below in wavy weather. We have had many an intense experience...esp. when my learning curve was angled pretty steep. We did more with less knowledge than we should have gotten away with... One time I was like....I don't know...the sun will be down soon; maybe we should sleep in the boat ramp parking lot and launch in the a.m. She asked me if I thought we would make it to the island on time and I said yeah...if everything goes o.k I THINK so, but I'm not sure. She said lets go for it (we were in a hobie 16 with tent and stuff piled up and strapped down like the beverly hillbillies wagon!). We hit the island beach right as the sun was going down...I gave her a kiss while the sun kissed the edge of the planet (I felt like kissing the ground as well; it was a pretty intense sail for me handling the chop and wind). many years and sails later, this is still one of the best sails, sunsets, and beers I have ever experienced!
Apples and Oranges
The gentleman said he wanted a boat that he could haul up on the beach in the range of 14 to 15 ft. Somebody recommended a Catalina 22 to lower the hassle factor, which is fine. However, the question of a Catalina 22 versus something else should not then ignore the 1st criteria of what he wanted. If we now want to talk about a larger fixed-keel boat that needs to be slipped, or that requires a launch ramp, a Catalina 22 would not be my choice or recommendation. Rather, a Ranger 23, Santana 22, J-22, SRMax-21 (true racer), etc. Just about anything but a Catalina 22. Sorry. BEO
The gentleman said he wanted a boat that he could haul up on the beach in the range of 14 to 15 ft. Somebody recommended a Catalina 22 to lower the hassle factor, which is fine. However, the question of a Catalina 22 versus something else should not then ignore the 1st criteria of what he wanted. If we now want to talk about a larger fixed-keel boat that needs to be slipped, or that requires a launch ramp, a Catalina 22 would not be my choice or recommendation. Rather, a Ranger 23, Santana 22, J-22, SRMax-21 (true racer), etc. Just about anything but a Catalina 22. Sorry. BEO
Having a Slip is Best
Over the long haul, having a slip is the best thing to keep you sailing more of the time. Next best is to have the boat in a yard where it can stay rigged and you launch from a trailer at a very close ramp, or from some kind of lift. I think a lot of people get discouraged b/c they try to use the (sail) boat from a trailer-launching situation where the boat has to be rigged and unrigged each time for transport. The "Hassle Factor" involved with boating will keep you home more than you want, or will send you and the wife off on some other activity when "I'd rather be sailing." Whatever boat you get, you really have to consider strongly how you're going to make it accessable for spontaneous and FUN!! use. Unfortunately, costs start to accumulate when the boat is in some kind of paid storage situation. You can migitate them by having a partner (who doesn't go out as often as you do!), or by joining some kind of sailing club (private or college/university alumni?) with waterfront property so you can store your boat there for relatively cheap (but you have to use it or they'll likely kick you out). The other thing, before you launch into this, is to go to some various marinas and "rent a boat" for daysailing; just go for an hour the 1st time; the time will pass really fast so when you get off, you'll maybe want to get right back on again and go farther. You'll also find out what you can expect from the different classes of boats. Around here in So. Cal, Capris and Catalinas are mostly what you find in the small (keel) boat range for daysailing, or else you're in a dinghy. If we want to get of town and go sailing somewhere new, that's we do, mostly just for the experience of being somewhere new. BEO
Over the long haul, having a slip is the best thing to keep you sailing more of the time. Next best is to have the boat in a yard where it can stay rigged and you launch from a trailer at a very close ramp, or from some kind of lift. I think a lot of people get discouraged b/c they try to use the (sail) boat from a trailer-launching situation where the boat has to be rigged and unrigged each time for transport. The "Hassle Factor" involved with boating will keep you home more than you want, or will send you and the wife off on some other activity when "I'd rather be sailing." Whatever boat you get, you really have to consider strongly how you're going to make it accessable for spontaneous and FUN!! use. Unfortunately, costs start to accumulate when the boat is in some kind of paid storage situation. You can migitate them by having a partner (who doesn't go out as often as you do!), or by joining some kind of sailing club (private or college/university alumni?) with waterfront property so you can store your boat there for relatively cheap (but you have to use it or they'll likely kick you out). The other thing, before you launch into this, is to go to some various marinas and "rent a boat" for daysailing; just go for an hour the 1st time; the time will pass really fast so when you get off, you'll maybe want to get right back on again and go farther. You'll also find out what you can expect from the different classes of boats. Around here in So. Cal, Capris and Catalinas are mostly what you find in the small (keel) boat range for daysailing, or else you're in a dinghy. If we want to get of town and go sailing somewhere new, that's we do, mostly just for the experience of being somewhere new. BEO
Wow- could you make it any
harder in the guy. When I was a kid we bought an Alcort Puffer. This boat is very stable, only about 250 lbs with a water ballast to maybe 400 lbs and nice sail area. I have sailed it for years solo... cause the wife likes to sit in the front nice and dry. You could carry it from a parking lot to a sany shore for launch in a crunch if you are slightly bigger and stronger than a reeces monkey. Here is some technicals: This Alcort Puffer sailboat has a fiberglass hull and an LOA of 12.5 feet (length over all). The boat has a 410 inch beam. This sailboat is set up to sail as a Sloop. The craft has 90 square feet of sail area. Displacement for the boat is 160 lbs. The draft of this sailboat is approximately 2'8". You can actually fit about 4 adults in the boat depending on size and it is super easy to rig. You can put the sail up by yourself and your wife wont have to get wet. In fact, since I upgraded to a Hunter 26' I have been thinking about selling it but when you have had a boat this long its like an old friend. Impossible to sink and a whole lot of fun to tip over on a really windy day I highly recommend it for a starter. It also comes convertable to a rowboat and mine has the hookups for a 2 or 4 HP engine even. Then you can fish, sail, row (if there is no wind). I checked some prices and you can get them for a real steal if you are just starting out... 500-1000.
harder in the guy. When I was a kid we bought an Alcort Puffer. This boat is very stable, only about 250 lbs with a water ballast to maybe 400 lbs and nice sail area. I have sailed it for years solo... cause the wife likes to sit in the front nice and dry. You could carry it from a parking lot to a sany shore for launch in a crunch if you are slightly bigger and stronger than a reeces monkey. Here is some technicals: This Alcort Puffer sailboat has a fiberglass hull and an LOA of 12.5 feet (length over all). The boat has a 410 inch beam. This sailboat is set up to sail as a Sloop. The craft has 90 square feet of sail area. Displacement for the boat is 160 lbs. The draft of this sailboat is approximately 2'8". You can actually fit about 4 adults in the boat depending on size and it is super easy to rig. You can put the sail up by yourself and your wife wont have to get wet. In fact, since I upgraded to a Hunter 26' I have been thinking about selling it but when you have had a boat this long its like an old friend. Impossible to sink and a whole lot of fun to tip over on a really windy day I highly recommend it for a starter. It also comes convertable to a rowboat and mine has the hookups for a 2 or 4 HP engine even. Then you can fish, sail, row (if there is no wind). I checked some prices and you can get them for a real steal if you are just starting out... 500-1000.
Bavaria 38E Owner
I think that the point that this guy is looking for: "If I'm going to convince the wife to come out, the boat should be relatively dry. Not really looking to race, but if the boat moves quickly that'd be fun. I'm really looking for a nice sailing boat that will be somewhat forgiving on a newbie." My suggestion for a C-22 is because if the guy has any hope of a forgiving boat, he probably needs to step up to somethng with length some draft and a good beam. Something that isn't going to get the wife as wet or scared. Something with some measure of comfort. A cabin to get out of the sun or maybe even a well needed port-a-potty. I would say that many of the smaller keel boats can be relatively quick to broach and/or probably aren't very fast. Now if you go up to boats that are better designed for racing in the 20-25 ft range, you are also looking at something that may need some expertice to keep on it's feet. If you are going to do that, maybe look at the Canadian made Hinterholer "Shark" . http://www.shark24.org/intro.htm Designed on and for lake Ontario. Although the C-22 isn't as fast as comparable boats which are more designed for speed, there are over 15 thousand of them around and the used boat/parts market is plentiful and more often cheaper than most of the other boats. Now one hangup for a ~22 foot anything is that it needs a bigger tow vehicle, storage, mooring, slip or some such arrangements but the slip arrangement may be a plus because the time to get sailing is less than launching of many of the smaller boats. ....Raise mast, mount some sort of outboard and rudder, hank on two sails and such. Then too, it may skip one of the links in the upgrade chain. You know that one. Buy a 14 footer, wish for bigger, buy a 22 footer, wish for something bigger.....etc.
I think that the point that this guy is looking for: "If I'm going to convince the wife to come out, the boat should be relatively dry. Not really looking to race, but if the boat moves quickly that'd be fun. I'm really looking for a nice sailing boat that will be somewhat forgiving on a newbie." My suggestion for a C-22 is because if the guy has any hope of a forgiving boat, he probably needs to step up to somethng with length some draft and a good beam. Something that isn't going to get the wife as wet or scared. Something with some measure of comfort. A cabin to get out of the sun or maybe even a well needed port-a-potty. I would say that many of the smaller keel boats can be relatively quick to broach and/or probably aren't very fast. Now if you go up to boats that are better designed for racing in the 20-25 ft range, you are also looking at something that may need some expertice to keep on it's feet. If you are going to do that, maybe look at the Canadian made Hinterholer "Shark" . http://www.shark24.org/intro.htm Designed on and for lake Ontario. Although the C-22 isn't as fast as comparable boats which are more designed for speed, there are over 15 thousand of them around and the used boat/parts market is plentiful and more often cheaper than most of the other boats. Now one hangup for a ~22 foot anything is that it needs a bigger tow vehicle, storage, mooring, slip or some such arrangements but the slip arrangement may be a plus because the time to get sailing is less than launching of many of the smaller boats. ....Raise mast, mount some sort of outboard and rudder, hank on two sails and such. Then too, it may skip one of the links in the upgrade chain. You know that one. Buy a 14 footer, wish for bigger, buy a 22 footer, wish for something bigger.....etc.
What do we mean by slow?
I'd like to return to the question of "slow" regarding Catalina 22 and other boats, namely the Potter 15 (P-15), since I'm the one who brought it up initially. I got around to looking for the PHRF rating for a P-15 only to discover what I probably knew but had forgotten--yachts under 20 ft typically aren't rated as they mostly compete in one-design classes. For the "newbies", PHRF stands for Performance Handicap Racing Fleet. Essentially, it handicaps different boat designs so they can be raced against each other "fairly." It assumes that the boats are race "optimized": clean bottoms, good sails of the correct sizes, and a capable, practiced crew. If two different boats where raced "perfectly" by their respective skippers and crews, then they should "tie" (I'm over simplifying) at the end of race on what is called "corrected time." Boats with lower ratings are faster than those with higher ratings. I found a recent action to rate the Potter-19 at 270 in Northern California. In a recent race series in the San Francisco Bay area, a P-15 was assigned a PHRF of 274. Catalina 22 usually rates around 270 depending on whether or not it has a swing keel. However, PHRFs can be area-specific, so what they are on Lake Ontario could be different. If the C-22 "owes" 4 seconds per mile (i.e., 274-270) to the P-15, then over a 10-mile race the boats would "tie" if the P-15 finished exactly 40 seconds behind the C-22. If the P-15 finished less than 40 seconds behind, or in front of the C-22, it would win. My first point is that the P-15 is evidently not a knot slower than the C-22 from an assessment of its average performance capabilities, although it might at first be thought so from its theoretical hull speed which is about a knot less than the C-22. If over a 10-mile trip the C-22 made 5 knots, and the P-15 4 knots, the difference would be 30 min in arrival times rather than the mere 40 seconds predicted by PHRF. The second point--in my opinion, is that the P-15 is inherently a better sailing yacht (= more fun) in some conditions. It's light compared to the C-22, about 500 lb displacement compared to over a ton. As such it carries a much higher sail area to displacement ratio and much lower displacement to length of water line ratio. So, it's inherently a faster design. Back to the C-22. Compared to other 22 ft yachts it's a slug as I said previously. It apparently can barely outrun a boat 7 ft shorter than it and by comparison the Ranger 22/23 rates at 216; J-22 at 183; Cal 20 at 264; Capri 22 at 204, etc. Why lay it on the C-22? I feel that the C-22 is a convenient and inexpensive choice for the new sailor. It's availability and popularity make it a safe choice for inexperienced buyers, so they buy one. However, they will quickly outgrow the thing in my opinion if they pursue sailing with much enthusiasm. OK, sure, trade it in for another one but why not start with one that you will keep longer and probably enjoy more? It's all a big compromise, of course. BEO
I'd like to return to the question of "slow" regarding Catalina 22 and other boats, namely the Potter 15 (P-15), since I'm the one who brought it up initially. I got around to looking for the PHRF rating for a P-15 only to discover what I probably knew but had forgotten--yachts under 20 ft typically aren't rated as they mostly compete in one-design classes. For the "newbies", PHRF stands for Performance Handicap Racing Fleet. Essentially, it handicaps different boat designs so they can be raced against each other "fairly." It assumes that the boats are race "optimized": clean bottoms, good sails of the correct sizes, and a capable, practiced crew. If two different boats where raced "perfectly" by their respective skippers and crews, then they should "tie" (I'm over simplifying) at the end of race on what is called "corrected time." Boats with lower ratings are faster than those with higher ratings. I found a recent action to rate the Potter-19 at 270 in Northern California. In a recent race series in the San Francisco Bay area, a P-15 was assigned a PHRF of 274. Catalina 22 usually rates around 270 depending on whether or not it has a swing keel. However, PHRFs can be area-specific, so what they are on Lake Ontario could be different. If the C-22 "owes" 4 seconds per mile (i.e., 274-270) to the P-15, then over a 10-mile race the boats would "tie" if the P-15 finished exactly 40 seconds behind the C-22. If the P-15 finished less than 40 seconds behind, or in front of the C-22, it would win. My first point is that the P-15 is evidently not a knot slower than the C-22 from an assessment of its average performance capabilities, although it might at first be thought so from its theoretical hull speed which is about a knot less than the C-22. If over a 10-mile trip the C-22 made 5 knots, and the P-15 4 knots, the difference would be 30 min in arrival times rather than the mere 40 seconds predicted by PHRF. The second point--in my opinion, is that the P-15 is inherently a better sailing yacht (= more fun) in some conditions. It's light compared to the C-22, about 500 lb displacement compared to over a ton. As such it carries a much higher sail area to displacement ratio and much lower displacement to length of water line ratio. So, it's inherently a faster design. Back to the C-22. Compared to other 22 ft yachts it's a slug as I said previously. It apparently can barely outrun a boat 7 ft shorter than it and by comparison the Ranger 22/23 rates at 216; J-22 at 183; Cal 20 at 264; Capri 22 at 204, etc. Why lay it on the C-22? I feel that the C-22 is a convenient and inexpensive choice for the new sailor. It's availability and popularity make it a safe choice for inexperienced buyers, so they buy one. However, they will quickly outgrow the thing in my opinion if they pursue sailing with much enthusiasm. OK, sure, trade it in for another one but why not start with one that you will keep longer and probably enjoy more? It's all a big compromise, of course. BEO
Whoa! I just reread your post...you could not pull a Cal 20 up on a lake shore. You could easily trailer it and launch it. But it has a fixed keel, and weighs over a 1000 lbs with keel. It has a 3 foot draft which is good for a lake, but you would have to anchor it in at least 4 ft of water. I assumed the 22 foot Catalina's discussed were the Capri's. Carry on!
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