When I went on my boat (2001 H260) last night, there was slight smell in the cabin and I noticed that the white button fuse for the bilge had popped out. I looked down in the bilge pump/floater switch and followed the wire back towards the fuse box until I found the fried wires encased by the melted black sheath. I peeled back the melted plastic (picture) to see that this happened where the 12 gauge (?) wires from the fuse box where connected to the 18-20 gauge wires to the switch and pump. I assume the reason this happened is that the wires were partly immersed in the .25 -.5 inches of bilge water that has been sitting there for awhile. I just took ownership of this "new" boat in December, 2001 and it is still under warrenty. Has this happened to anyone before?? Who is responsible for fixing or paying for it, the dealer, Hunter, or me? Should the bilge pump and float switch be replaced?
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responsibility
I'd say you are. I'm not trying to preach or come off as a know-it-all here, but one has to take responsibility for the safety of his/her boat. It's not like a car where one can just let it run until something breaks. You should know your boat inside and out, every wire, every hose. If you've not taken the time to trace all this stuff, then you need to do so now. Make your own diagram to supplement the ones supplied by Hunter. Wires left sitting in water are not acceptable. The typical Rule float type switch is unacceptable, IMO. There are so many systems aboard trying to survive is basically a hostile environment, that it has to be up to you. If you know where everything is, you will feel much more comfortable in any situation.
I'd say you are. I'm not trying to preach or come off as a know-it-all here, but one has to take responsibility for the safety of his/her boat. It's not like a car where one can just let it run until something breaks. You should know your boat inside and out, every wire, every hose. If you've not taken the time to trace all this stuff, then you need to do so now. Make your own diagram to supplement the ones supplied by Hunter. Wires left sitting in water are not acceptable. The typical Rule float type switch is unacceptable, IMO. There are so many systems aboard trying to survive is basically a hostile environment, that it has to be up to you. If you know where everything is, you will feel much more comfortable in any situation.
Short?
I disagree (somewhat) with Bill. This is a new boat. All of the equipment that's installed in a new boat should work at LEAST as long as the warranty coverage. That's not to say that the equipment that was installed is appropriate or sufficient -- it just means that the dealer or manufacturer should fix it if it breaks. (Hunter makes a LOT of shorcuts in order to stay in business.) Yes, the owner needs to take responsibility for learning everything they can about the boat and its systems. Yes, they should upgrade components and systems when they find that the manufacturer didn't do it right the first time around. And at that point THEY are now responsible for the equipment. Until then, though, it's still the manufacturer's responsibility. Was there enough water in the bilge to activate the float switch (was the circuit "on")? While wire that thin isn't ideal (12 or 14 AWG should be used throughout), the distance between the panel and the pump probably isn't very far. A 20' run with 20 AWG wire (10' to the pump and 10' return) should support 20amps with only an 11% voltage drop -- definitely not enough resistance to melt the wires even at that high an amperage. The pump should draw much, much less than that. Seems to me that you had a lot more amps running through that wire that was intended. So... a short somewhere. Any breaks in the wire where it might touch the water or another grounding conductor? Any exposed wire or non-waterproof connectors in the circuit? Esp. check the switch & pump connectors. Does the pump still work? In any event, I contend that the dealer or manufacturer should fix it. After that (and only after that), I'd look at it a lot more closely and replace/upgrade substandard parts. Contact the dealer and tell him you want it fixed ASAP. (Don't ask, tell.)
I disagree (somewhat) with Bill. This is a new boat. All of the equipment that's installed in a new boat should work at LEAST as long as the warranty coverage. That's not to say that the equipment that was installed is appropriate or sufficient -- it just means that the dealer or manufacturer should fix it if it breaks. (Hunter makes a LOT of shorcuts in order to stay in business.) Yes, the owner needs to take responsibility for learning everything they can about the boat and its systems. Yes, they should upgrade components and systems when they find that the manufacturer didn't do it right the first time around. And at that point THEY are now responsible for the equipment. Until then, though, it's still the manufacturer's responsibility. Was there enough water in the bilge to activate the float switch (was the circuit "on")? While wire that thin isn't ideal (12 or 14 AWG should be used throughout), the distance between the panel and the pump probably isn't very far. A 20' run with 20 AWG wire (10' to the pump and 10' return) should support 20amps with only an 11% voltage drop -- definitely not enough resistance to melt the wires even at that high an amperage. The pump should draw much, much less than that. Seems to me that you had a lot more amps running through that wire that was intended. So... a short somewhere. Any breaks in the wire where it might touch the water or another grounding conductor? Any exposed wire or non-waterproof connectors in the circuit? Esp. check the switch & pump connectors. Does the pump still work? In any event, I contend that the dealer or manufacturer should fix it. After that (and only after that), I'd look at it a lot more closely and replace/upgrade substandard parts. Contact the dealer and tell him you want it fixed ASAP. (Don't ask, tell.)
more info...
The level of the water that was in the bilge (<1 gallon) was not high enough to activate the switch. The short occurred at the wire connectors about 6 inches from the pump/switch. I don't know if they where waterproof. I don't know if the pump still works - I turned the battery switch to off and only had a flashlight last night. In buying a new boat I expected that all systems were installed and running properly!! I've only had the boat in the water for 3 weeks!!
The level of the water that was in the bilge (<1 gallon) was not high enough to activate the switch. The short occurred at the wire connectors about 6 inches from the pump/switch. I don't know if they where waterproof. I don't know if the pump still works - I turned the battery switch to off and only had a flashlight last night. In buying a new boat I expected that all systems were installed and running properly!! I've only had the boat in the water for 3 weeks!!
Battery switch
Are you absolutely positive that the battery switch controls the automatic bilge pump circuit? Many (most?) boats have the bilge pump wired independently of that switch. That particular circuit might still be "on". Since the fuse blew, it should be OK for the moment, but DON'T replace that fuse until you've either fixed the problem or disconnected the circuit from the batteries!
Are you absolutely positive that the battery switch controls the automatic bilge pump circuit? Many (most?) boats have the bilge pump wired independently of that switch. That particular circuit might still be "on". Since the fuse blew, it should be OK for the moment, but DON'T replace that fuse until you've either fixed the problem or disconnected the circuit from the batteries!
bilge pmp
I'll check my wires tonight. My wires are a couple inches off the floor, but there may be unsealed connectors. Where did the gallon of water come from?
I'll check my wires tonight. My wires are a couple inches off the floor, but there may be unsealed connectors. Where did the gallon of water come from?
water was there...
The water in the bilge was there (rain?) when I picked up the boat and has since sat with this little bit of water. Again, I figured that any wiring that Hunter had done that was in the bilge was "waterproof." I hadn't removed the water before because I wanted to test out a depth transducer in the bilge before permanently mounting it and hence needed the water there for it to work.
The water in the bilge was there (rain?) when I picked up the boat and has since sat with this little bit of water. Again, I figured that any wiring that Hunter had done that was in the bilge was "waterproof." I hadn't removed the water before because I wanted to test out a depth transducer in the bilge before permanently mounting it and hence needed the water there for it to work.
oops, 2001
I missed the part about Dec, 2001. while I stand behind my opinion egarding knowlege, the system should be working correctly for 6 months. I believe, the wires from a pump and switch should be led high in the bilge to a terminal block with no splices.. At the TB, all connections should be made with the wiring from the bilge switch uning heatshrink crimp connectors and screws. You can then monitor the condition of the connections, inspecting for corrosion, etc., and all connections are above all but a catastrophic water accumulation. they can also be treated with corrosion block. I'd be really surprised, along with a previous post, if the wiring went straight from the battery. Is there not a 2-way, auto/manual, bilge switch at the electrical panel. also, as previously stated, check the wire guages. Bigger is better.
I missed the part about Dec, 2001. while I stand behind my opinion egarding knowlege, the system should be working correctly for 6 months. I believe, the wires from a pump and switch should be led high in the bilge to a terminal block with no splices.. At the TB, all connections should be made with the wiring from the bilge switch uning heatshrink crimp connectors and screws. You can then monitor the condition of the connections, inspecting for corrosion, etc., and all connections are above all but a catastrophic water accumulation. they can also be treated with corrosion block. I'd be really surprised, along with a previous post, if the wiring went straight from the battery. Is there not a 2-way, auto/manual, bilge switch at the electrical panel. also, as previously stated, check the wire guages. Bigger is better.
Bill...
The bilge and switch are connected about 6 inches from them via wire connectors to 12-14 gauge wire coming from the fuse/switch panel which has the a 2-way manuel/auto switch. It is hard to tell whether or not the connector was shrink wrapped to begin with. I will be sure to have the new connector/line up and away from any standing water in the bilge - again something I incorrectly assumed Hunter would have done from the get go...
The bilge and switch are connected about 6 inches from them via wire connectors to 12-14 gauge wire coming from the fuse/switch panel which has the a 2-way manuel/auto switch. It is hard to tell whether or not the connector was shrink wrapped to begin with. I will be sure to have the new connector/line up and away from any standing water in the bilge - again something I incorrectly assumed Hunter would have done from the get go...
responsibility
I usually side with Bills camp on this type of issue, but in this case I think Hunter should pay for the fix. The boat is still under warranty and from the description; the flaw is in a factory-wiring job. Unless someone has tampered with the wiring, Hunter should do the fix. I would like to also point out that in some boats, especially larger boats, we have to trust the materials and workmanship of the builder. To inspect everything would mean taking the entire boat apart. Even in this case…wires inside a sheath, or heat shrink! Is Bill suggesting we cut open all the heat shrinks to inspect so that we will “know” our boats? If you sell me a boat that you built and you represent it to be a well-built safe boat (and I would think Hunter should know how to properly wire a bilge pump after building boats since 1975), I should be able have a degree of confidence in your product. I should not have to be a marine electrician, plumber, or yard worker to qualify for ownership. I just want to sail! I know, I know all about the captain being responsible for his ship yata, yata... I’m a pilot and understand the responsibilities that go with command and/or ownership, but we must use some common sense and be able to trust the “experts” that build our boats (or planes)….or cars for that matter. I will close with one further acknowledgement. I believe the liability of the builder only goes so far. After that we must assume responsibility as owners or pay an expert to certify that all is well. …..Don slowly backs off the soap box and braces himself for the onslaught…
I usually side with Bills camp on this type of issue, but in this case I think Hunter should pay for the fix. The boat is still under warranty and from the description; the flaw is in a factory-wiring job. Unless someone has tampered with the wiring, Hunter should do the fix. I would like to also point out that in some boats, especially larger boats, we have to trust the materials and workmanship of the builder. To inspect everything would mean taking the entire boat apart. Even in this case…wires inside a sheath, or heat shrink! Is Bill suggesting we cut open all the heat shrinks to inspect so that we will “know” our boats? If you sell me a boat that you built and you represent it to be a well-built safe boat (and I would think Hunter should know how to properly wire a bilge pump after building boats since 1975), I should be able have a degree of confidence in your product. I should not have to be a marine electrician, plumber, or yard worker to qualify for ownership. I just want to sail! I know, I know all about the captain being responsible for his ship yata, yata... I’m a pilot and understand the responsibilities that go with command and/or ownership, but we must use some common sense and be able to trust the “experts” that build our boats (or planes)….or cars for that matter. I will close with one further acknowledgement. I believe the liability of the builder only goes so far. After that we must assume responsibility as owners or pay an expert to certify that all is well. …..Don slowly backs off the soap box and braces himself for the onslaught…
dealer responded
After telling the dealer what occured, he said that he will have his electrician do the repair (rewire and replace bilge and switch) under warrenty. While he's at it, he will be replacing the teak and holly cabin floor which has started popping up due improper installation. He will pick up the boat (3 h away from dealer) and bring it to his shop for the work and I will have to pick it up when it's done...
After telling the dealer what occured, he said that he will have his electrician do the repair (rewire and replace bilge and switch) under warrenty. While he's at it, he will be replacing the teak and holly cabin floor which has started popping up due improper installation. He will pick up the boat (3 h away from dealer) and bring it to his shop for the work and I will have to pick it up when it's done...
Quality
Glad to hear that the dealer's going to fix it. Too bad you have to make the trip back to pick it up though... I'm curious on another subject -- I was reading another thread about thruhulls and they were talking about replacing the gate valves that Hunter installed. Does Hunter STILL install gate valves on their boats???
Glad to hear that the dealer's going to fix it. Too bad you have to make the trip back to pick it up though... I'm curious on another subject -- I was reading another thread about thruhulls and they were talking about replacing the gate valves that Hunter installed. Does Hunter STILL install gate valves on their boats???
don on a soapbox
I don't think so, that's the joy about this site, everyone can help out on a problem. I misread the original post from Al and missed the reference to the boat only being 6 months old. I'm glad the issue is being cleared up my warranty. What I meant about knowing the boat, was that one should take the time to inspect all the visible wiring, hoses, and systems on the boat from time to time and understand, as much as possible, what every wire and switch does. The owners manual for our 42 was very marginal about many items especially the wiring diagram. Granted, we've had our boat 4 years now, so that has given me more time at the dock to look at stuff during those hot windless days. I also get nosy and look at how systems are done on other boats when I'm given the chance. I'm just a fidget and can't leave well enough alone which has resulted in me breaking stuff, which causes me to have to fix stuff, which causes me to ...blah, blah. I'm sorry if I came off as a bore.
I don't think so, that's the joy about this site, everyone can help out on a problem. I misread the original post from Al and missed the reference to the boat only being 6 months old. I'm glad the issue is being cleared up my warranty. What I meant about knowing the boat, was that one should take the time to inspect all the visible wiring, hoses, and systems on the boat from time to time and understand, as much as possible, what every wire and switch does. The owners manual for our 42 was very marginal about many items especially the wiring diagram. Granted, we've had our boat 4 years now, so that has given me more time at the dock to look at stuff during those hot windless days. I also get nosy and look at how systems are done on other boats when I'm given the chance. I'm just a fidget and can't leave well enough alone which has resulted in me breaking stuff, which causes me to have to fix stuff, which causes me to ...blah, blah. I'm sorry if I came off as a bore.
Curiosity...
Don, I'm exactly the same way. From all the notes I've taken, measurements I've made, and diagrams I've drawn, I bet you could build an identical Sabre 28 from scratch!!!
I've become addicted to the whole mechanical & "systems" experience -- not just to sailing....
Don, I'm exactly the same way. From all the notes I've taken, measurements I've made, and diagrams I've drawn, I bet you could build an identical Sabre 28 from scratch!!!
I've become addicted to the whole mechanical & "systems" experience -- not just to sailing....gate valve?
I don't think there are any gate valves on the thru hulls...I'll check next time on the boat.
I don't think there are any gate valves on the thru hulls...I'll check next time on the boat.
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