I promised to report on this. I'm a little late but ... here goes. This past spring I took the opportunity between jobs to sign on for a week long intensive Cruise and Learn from Cooper Boating in Vancouver, Canada. Having had little time to review the binder they sent me in advance, I did some quick speed reading on the air plane, thinking I would have plenty of quiet time to get caught-up on the review. WRONG. From the time I arrived at the office on Granville Island (downtown Vancouver) the ladies at reception had me hoppin'. I met the other students (myself and three others) and we were introduced to the Instructor / Captian and our Catalina 34. Suffice to say that school was "in" the moment we stepped onboard the boat. It kept up that way all week. Up at around 0800, breakfast onboard and then lift the anchor and off to sail the Gulf Islands. Our Instructor was very knowledgable and far more patient with our repeated mistakes than I could ever be. The day would end around 1800 at anchor or at a marina. Dinner and clean up was followed by an hour or so of class and then around 2000 we would find our way to a local watering hole to relax for an hour or so. Repeat that for five days and you have it. The only upset came when we witnessed a mayday while sailing off the end of a ferry dock. Without getting into the details, it was a tragedy that left one family and many of the tiny island residents greiving. The event was a huge learning experience as we whitnessed our instructor's response to the mayday call and the very prompt Canadian Coast Gaurd hoover craft and helicopter response. In the end we wrote our CYC standard exams for inland water cruising as well as our Transport Canada license for small watercraft operations. I had a gereat time - made four new friends and got a whack of on-the-water experience. All in all it was well worth the week and the $1,200 +/- all in cost (airfare and cocktails were extra). Richard
Finally went to a sailing lesson!
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Great - what about the mayday
Do you have any more details of the tragedy and what you learned? David
Do you have any more details of the tragedy and what you learned? David
what did you learn
I have taken a lot of friends, some experienced sailors out on my boat, and many haven't a clue as to what to do. The first time I took the experienced sailors out (there were three of them) I showed them a thing or two that they weren't aware of, and my expereince till that time? Nada, zip, zero. Where did I learn it all? Read dozens of books, and having just cleaned my library, found I have over 250 Classic Boat, Wooden Boat, PBO, Practical Sailor, Good Old Bot, Latts and Atts, Classic Craft, to name a few. As for the others, some have sailing experience, but just down't get it. Get it means they instinctively can read the wind, waves, current, etc to sail the boat int he best fashion. However, I still wonder if I could learn something by taking a class. Two items: I was forced to take a computer class from work. They told me it woudl be instructive, etc. I was so far ahead of them, my boss kept "zapping" me to get back on the same page. Then the instructor asked one of those "nobody will get this" questions and I mumbled the answer. Suprised, he asked "Who said that." My boss pointed at me and theinstructor said "I've been teaching this class for 8 years and nobody ever got the answer correct". Another time I was forced to show the Army sailing team something abouut sailing. Not sure what they wanted to know as their crafts were 14' and we were on a 43'. My fisrt question was "Whats the first law of sailing?" No answer. I said "Get your degree, then youi can always hire someone to teach yoiu to sail." You can find anything in rags, on the net, or in books, so what was so intensive or out of the box that was worth $1200?
I have taken a lot of friends, some experienced sailors out on my boat, and many haven't a clue as to what to do. The first time I took the experienced sailors out (there were three of them) I showed them a thing or two that they weren't aware of, and my expereince till that time? Nada, zip, zero. Where did I learn it all? Read dozens of books, and having just cleaned my library, found I have over 250 Classic Boat, Wooden Boat, PBO, Practical Sailor, Good Old Bot, Latts and Atts, Classic Craft, to name a few. As for the others, some have sailing experience, but just down't get it. Get it means they instinctively can read the wind, waves, current, etc to sail the boat int he best fashion. However, I still wonder if I could learn something by taking a class. Two items: I was forced to take a computer class from work. They told me it woudl be instructive, etc. I was so far ahead of them, my boss kept "zapping" me to get back on the same page. Then the instructor asked one of those "nobody will get this" questions and I mumbled the answer. Suprised, he asked "Who said that." My boss pointed at me and theinstructor said "I've been teaching this class for 8 years and nobody ever got the answer correct". Another time I was forced to show the Army sailing team something abouut sailing. Not sure what they wanted to know as their crafts were 14' and we were on a 43'. My fisrt question was "Whats the first law of sailing?" No answer. I said "Get your degree, then youi can always hire someone to teach yoiu to sail." You can find anything in rags, on the net, or in books, so what was so intensive or out of the box that was worth $1200?
Tom, it works both ways
Some people really take to book learning, and can immediately apply what they've learned, but can't easily comprehend how to "do it" without the book. Others can figure out how to "do it" with ease, but get confused dealing with rules that don't make intuitive sense, but are just rules made up that he have to live by to get along in traffic and communicating with others. Still others are comfortable with both types of learning. The key in classes with several people is for the instructor to cater to both types of learners, which means most are going to be bored with at least some of the course, and have other parts go right by them without sinking in, depending on the subject matter. I've found that if you read carefully about the subject matter of the course (or ask somebody else who's taken it), to be sure its about something you have an intense curiosity about, and you know which type of learner you are, you can minimize the frustration you might feel.
Some people really take to book learning, and can immediately apply what they've learned, but can't easily comprehend how to "do it" without the book. Others can figure out how to "do it" with ease, but get confused dealing with rules that don't make intuitive sense, but are just rules made up that he have to live by to get along in traffic and communicating with others. Still others are comfortable with both types of learning. The key in classes with several people is for the instructor to cater to both types of learners, which means most are going to be bored with at least some of the course, and have other parts go right by them without sinking in, depending on the subject matter. I've found that if you read carefully about the subject matter of the course (or ask somebody else who's taken it), to be sure its about something you have an intense curiosity about, and you know which type of learner you are, you can minimize the frustration you might feel.
Tom, how did you learn to sail?
as a 10 yr old were you plunked into an Opti pram and sent off to figure it out without the benefit of any instruction? Prior to moving to the West Coast I had been sailing for about 25 years, always on dinghies, catamarans and boardsailing. Like you I had/have a voluminous collection of sailing rags, books etc., all well dog earred. But until I got on a keel boat I had no idea how to dock, how to set an anchor and all of the other techniques that are unique to keel boats. I have no idea how much experience Richard had prior to taking that course but suffice it to say that it is likely he was not very experienced or familiar with keel boat techniques or felt the need to bolster the "academic" knowledge he had with practical experience. IMHO D.
as a 10 yr old were you plunked into an Opti pram and sent off to figure it out without the benefit of any instruction? Prior to moving to the West Coast I had been sailing for about 25 years, always on dinghies, catamarans and boardsailing. Like you I had/have a voluminous collection of sailing rags, books etc., all well dog earred. But until I got on a keel boat I had no idea how to dock, how to set an anchor and all of the other techniques that are unique to keel boats. I have no idea how much experience Richard had prior to taking that course but suffice it to say that it is likely he was not very experienced or familiar with keel boat techniques or felt the need to bolster the "academic" knowledge he had with practical experience. IMHO D.
Bargain
That sound's like a bargain. 4 people times 1200 is 4800 for the week. Compare the cost of chartering a 34 foot boat for a week, plus provisions, plus a captain. The sailing lesson's were almost free. I'm glad to hear good things about Cooper's
That sound's like a bargain. 4 people times 1200 is 4800 for the week. Compare the cost of chartering a 34 foot boat for a week, plus provisions, plus a captain. The sailing lesson's were almost free. I'm glad to hear good things about Cooper's
I am a big fan of taking classes
As evidence I believe in taking classes, I have six certifications from ASA. I took them from a school that has no problem sending people home (with a full refund) if they are not learning. It's intense, if you don't read the book ahead of time, I can't see how you can do well in these classes. The people sent home are the one's who didn't read the books first. One example, that the books just can't give you, is someone watching as you do something and either (a) tell you your wrong (the book won't do that) and (b) take over if you screw up, or (c) offer alternative techniques or be at the ready with a "why" behind the technique, when it isn't working on the water for me. After just one class it also became addicting for me. The combination of fun, meeting new people, living through some harry moments as other students "practiced" techniques like MOB and docking, and lots of sea stories was very rewarding ... for not much more than chartering a boat for a couple of days. As a side benefit, when I teach people how to do things on my boats, I find myself comfortable and competent repeating a technique I saw used with me or other students, as something repeatable. Quoting from a book, just isn't practical in this regards. Dan
As evidence I believe in taking classes, I have six certifications from ASA. I took them from a school that has no problem sending people home (with a full refund) if they are not learning. It's intense, if you don't read the book ahead of time, I can't see how you can do well in these classes. The people sent home are the one's who didn't read the books first. One example, that the books just can't give you, is someone watching as you do something and either (a) tell you your wrong (the book won't do that) and (b) take over if you screw up, or (c) offer alternative techniques or be at the ready with a "why" behind the technique, when it isn't working on the water for me. After just one class it also became addicting for me. The combination of fun, meeting new people, living through some harry moments as other students "practiced" techniques like MOB and docking, and lots of sea stories was very rewarding ... for not much more than chartering a boat for a couple of days. As a side benefit, when I teach people how to do things on my boats, I find myself comfortable and competent repeating a technique I saw used with me or other students, as something repeatable. Quoting from a book, just isn't practical in this regards. Dan
Now if we can work global warming into this topic
Well, the topic on heaving too and parachutes went south with irrelevancy concerning global warming, perhaps I can hijack this thread by suggesting that global warming will necessitate quality lessons for those in the Pacific North West as their sailing season is extended with a warming environment....lol!
Well, the topic on heaving too and parachutes went south with irrelevancy concerning global warming, perhaps I can hijack this thread by suggesting that global warming will necessitate quality lessons for those in the Pacific North West as their sailing season is extended with a warming environment....lol!
Global Warming???
It is 17 degrees F at my house and it is snowing. I think you are going to have a little bit of trouble selling me a global warming story tonight. It might have been easier two weeks ago when it was 80 degrees. Just to try to stay on topic, I took ASA courses about 10 years ago and would say they were well worth the time, effort and money.
It is 17 degrees F at my house and it is snowing. I think you are going to have a little bit of trouble selling me a global warming story tonight. It might have been easier two weeks ago when it was 80 degrees. Just to try to stay on topic, I took ASA courses about 10 years ago and would say they were well worth the time, effort and money.
Intructions
I think there's value in instructor led training. I've always said, 20 years of doing something the wrong way is far different than 20 years of experience.
I think there's value in instructor led training. I've always said, 20 years of doing something the wrong way is far different than 20 years of experience.
how I learned
My first boat was a 12 Penguin, which I still have. I sailed it for 1 season. It is a perfect boat to learn to sail on and it cost me $85.00 a few years ago. I had a canoe for 18 years and took it down local rivers in the fall and spring, when the waters were high and all you had to do was steer. And we used to rent 12' fishing boats and take them out in 6'ers to surf the waves, play tag with, and just have fun on. I think you learn on any boat you are on, and apply it to any other boat. They all behave the same, I guess, in a way. From those experiences of being out on the water, and then reading of a technique that applies to sail boats in the rags, made it easy to "see" and get what they were trying to get across.
My first boat was a 12 Penguin, which I still have. I sailed it for 1 season. It is a perfect boat to learn to sail on and it cost me $85.00 a few years ago. I had a canoe for 18 years and took it down local rivers in the fall and spring, when the waters were high and all you had to do was steer. And we used to rent 12' fishing boats and take them out in 6'ers to surf the waves, play tag with, and just have fun on. I think you learn on any boat you are on, and apply it to any other boat. They all behave the same, I guess, in a way. From those experiences of being out on the water, and then reading of a technique that applies to sail boats in the rags, made it easy to "see" and get what they were trying to get across.
Practical vs Book Learning
To answer some of the questions posed in the previous twelve responses: I had crewed for my roomate in college (30 years ago) and got the "sailing bug", but living on the edge of the Canadian prairie (hard water for 5 months of the year) and raising a family delayed the actual purchase of a keel boat until 2003. I did have the ussual experience with canoes (after all I am Canadian) and lake boats (18 foot Lund with a 20 hp Evenrude, etc.) but the challenge of 34 feet of brand new sailboat, tides that make the water go up and down as well as side to side, currents, marker bouys, setting an anchor and motoring into a pubic marina (they moore back-first out there) were all challenges that I didn't think any amount of late night reading would address. I have an extensive collection of SAIL magazines as well as Pacific Yachting, Sailing for Dummies and others - all read and re-read several times - but I must admit that several of the articles only made sense after I had actually spend 6 nights on the water (salt water that is). The cost - yes it was Canadian dollars and yes that is irrelevant as I earn and purchase in Canadian dollars - however, my rationale (to myself and my wife) was that a six day sailing vacation fully provisioned with an experienced captain and a few other fun-loving people, in some of the best sailing grounds around, all for $1,200 wasn't a bad deal at all. Hell, if I failed to learn a thing, I had a great time and a nice transition between jobs. That's my story and I'm stickin to it. Richard I'll write about the mayday if there is significant interest.
To answer some of the questions posed in the previous twelve responses: I had crewed for my roomate in college (30 years ago) and got the "sailing bug", but living on the edge of the Canadian prairie (hard water for 5 months of the year) and raising a family delayed the actual purchase of a keel boat until 2003. I did have the ussual experience with canoes (after all I am Canadian) and lake boats (18 foot Lund with a 20 hp Evenrude, etc.) but the challenge of 34 feet of brand new sailboat, tides that make the water go up and down as well as side to side, currents, marker bouys, setting an anchor and motoring into a pubic marina (they moore back-first out there) were all challenges that I didn't think any amount of late night reading would address. I have an extensive collection of SAIL magazines as well as Pacific Yachting, Sailing for Dummies and others - all read and re-read several times - but I must admit that several of the articles only made sense after I had actually spend 6 nights on the water (salt water that is). The cost - yes it was Canadian dollars and yes that is irrelevant as I earn and purchase in Canadian dollars - however, my rationale (to myself and my wife) was that a six day sailing vacation fully provisioned with an experienced captain and a few other fun-loving people, in some of the best sailing grounds around, all for $1,200 wasn't a bad deal at all. Hell, if I failed to learn a thing, I had a great time and a nice transition between jobs. That's my story and I'm stickin to it. Richard I'll write about the mayday if there is significant interest.
Ya, but David, Tom asked the question. He's
from Cleveland. So in U.S. dollars, that's what, $900?
from Cleveland. So in U.S. dollars, that's what, $900?
What about the better half?
Richard, No one else has raised this question, so I guess I'll throw it out there. Does your wife sail with you? If so, isn't she also interested in taking a course? Even though my wife and I have been sailing together for over 10 years we are still planning on taking some cruising courses to make it easier for chartering. What I've found is we can get a discount for 2 people and, like you stated, it works out to not that bad of a price for a week when the "room" is included. The main reason for this question is that I've read so many articles where the wife is basically "along for the ride" and if something untoward happens she may not know what to do next. Fair winds, Jim
Richard, No one else has raised this question, so I guess I'll throw it out there. Does your wife sail with you? If so, isn't she also interested in taking a course? Even though my wife and I have been sailing together for over 10 years we are still planning on taking some cruising courses to make it easier for chartering. What I've found is we can get a discount for 2 people and, like you stated, it works out to not that bad of a price for a week when the "room" is included. The main reason for this question is that I've read so many articles where the wife is basically "along for the ride" and if something untoward happens she may not know what to do next. Fair winds, Jim
The better half
My wife does not sail - that is she has never been actively involved in the sailing of our recently acquired 22 foot Mac Venture. She exhibits an interest from a recreational point of view, however I share the concern that someboby else on the boat needs to be able to handle a Man overboard situation, understand the priciples of how the boat moves and what needs to be during an emergancy - or to avoid an emergancy. As my skills improve, our plan is to have the entire family learn, either through osmosis or through formal instruction depending on thier level of interest. The two older kids (young adults) took sailing lessons during the summers sufficient to achieve their CYC Instructors level. When either of them are are onboard, we have a very high level of competency and I would hope the younger two (tweeneys) will follow in their older siblings footsteps. The thread that listed Sailing Books for Kids was a welcome site - timely too in that there are stokings to fill in a couple of weeks. Mom on the other hand has only made a passing reference to the "Ladies Only" cruise and learn course offered by Coopers (Vancouver) and more from a "girls get away week" prospective than any burning desire to gain proficiency. Having said that - if that what it takes to get another qualified "skipper" in the family, I'll take it. Chinooking in Calgary at +10 celsius today, but the boat is still wrapped in plastic in the storage yard. Richard
My wife does not sail - that is she has never been actively involved in the sailing of our recently acquired 22 foot Mac Venture. She exhibits an interest from a recreational point of view, however I share the concern that someboby else on the boat needs to be able to handle a Man overboard situation, understand the priciples of how the boat moves and what needs to be during an emergancy - or to avoid an emergancy. As my skills improve, our plan is to have the entire family learn, either through osmosis or through formal instruction depending on thier level of interest. The two older kids (young adults) took sailing lessons during the summers sufficient to achieve their CYC Instructors level. When either of them are are onboard, we have a very high level of competency and I would hope the younger two (tweeneys) will follow in their older siblings footsteps. The thread that listed Sailing Books for Kids was a welcome site - timely too in that there are stokings to fill in a couple of weeks. Mom on the other hand has only made a passing reference to the "Ladies Only" cruise and learn course offered by Coopers (Vancouver) and more from a "girls get away week" prospective than any burning desire to gain proficiency. Having said that - if that what it takes to get another qualified "skipper" in the family, I'll take it. Chinooking in Calgary at +10 celsius today, but the boat is still wrapped in plastic in the storage yard. Richard
Hello to al the lanlubbers out there
Been there dun it. I learned in high school taught myself taken all the classes, Coast Guard member, Seamennship, navigation and advanced etc., there's no knowledge like experience and the books fail to prepare you for the lessons at sea all the knowledge you can pick up from others in class out of class could prepare you for a survival situaton that could cost you your life. The key its in preparation, to learn the tricks from the pros who know about survival at sea. That includes preparing the boat for extre attack from the elements such as reinforcing the windows, for stays, cockpit scuppers (oversized) and most important is the training of the crew for offshore emergencies and when you think you know it all; the time will come that will show you how little you really do now about survival at sea.
Been there dun it. I learned in high school taught myself taken all the classes, Coast Guard member, Seamennship, navigation and advanced etc., there's no knowledge like experience and the books fail to prepare you for the lessons at sea all the knowledge you can pick up from others in class out of class could prepare you for a survival situaton that could cost you your life. The key its in preparation, to learn the tricks from the pros who know about survival at sea. That includes preparing the boat for extre attack from the elements such as reinforcing the windows, for stays, cockpit scuppers (oversized) and most important is the training of the crew for offshore emergencies and when you think you know it all; the time will come that will show you how little you really do now about survival at sea.
Get survival proofed
Sailing is about being prepared and knowledge is only a small part of it.When confronted with the issues of survival at sea remember there a are many larger boats and better equipped boats, and more knowledgeable seaman, and cautious seaman, who are not here today because they were not prepared or were prepared but inexperienced in dealing with the elements at sea that overwhelmed them at sea. There is no such thing as being to prepared and if taking a 1200 dollar class is in line with your goal of safety at sea then I think it's great that you are doing something about preparation My biggest grip about "class" is it doesn't prepare you adaquately for the elements of being subjected to all emergency situations at sea that many people,who if could talk about it would say what I am saying;the elements and variables of situations and emegencies are too many (to cover and a class that many fail to address the many issues is great) You want to prepare your self get on-line,talk to the pros that have many crossing under their belt and know what is out there. The standard of instruction is sub-standard in this area(Rochester)One or two may have a crossing under their belt,but expert knowledge is coveted and there are experts that know how to advise you to the hazards of survival at sea.
Sailing is about being prepared and knowledge is only a small part of it.When confronted with the issues of survival at sea remember there a are many larger boats and better equipped boats, and more knowledgeable seaman, and cautious seaman, who are not here today because they were not prepared or were prepared but inexperienced in dealing with the elements at sea that overwhelmed them at sea. There is no such thing as being to prepared and if taking a 1200 dollar class is in line with your goal of safety at sea then I think it's great that you are doing something about preparation My biggest grip about "class" is it doesn't prepare you adaquately for the elements of being subjected to all emergency situations at sea that many people,who if could talk about it would say what I am saying;the elements and variables of situations and emegencies are too many (to cover and a class that many fail to address the many issues is great) You want to prepare your self get on-line,talk to the pros that have many crossing under their belt and know what is out there. The standard of instruction is sub-standard in this area(Rochester)One or two may have a crossing under their belt,but expert knowledge is coveted and there are experts that know how to advise you to the hazards of survival at sea.
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