Yay! Finally day with sun, and a good wind from the north to take my new ship out for the 3rd time and REALLY sail the way it should be. Good wind yesterday on Lake Washington, so I could really start getting used to my new Catalina. I was able to get to hull speed a few times, wind was probably about 15 mph or so, and kept me busy. All went well, but I have a rudder/keel question. When I really get going, I have to hold a lot of force on the tiller to keep the boat going straight and not turning downwind. I'm pretty sure I'm doing something wrong with trim somewhere. Do I raise the keel a bit, trim the sail differently, or what should I do? My girlfriend kind of got pulled off the seat when she was holding the tiller. I'm a self-taught sailer and have sailed a Lido 14 until recently, so the bigger boat thing is new to me. Advice on this tiller yanking stuff? Tom
Finally! Good wind, and sunshine....and question.
- Thread starter tegwilym
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Tillermate!!
Hi I will recommend getting a Tillermate or similar product. Also if the boat is going downwind trim your sails a little more, sheet in. The same thing happens if you want to go downwind but the boat is going upwind, in this case you need to ease your sails.
Hi I will recommend getting a Tillermate or similar product. Also if the boat is going downwind trim your sails a little more, sheet in. The same thing happens if you want to go downwind but the boat is going upwind, in this case you need to ease your sails.
weatherhelm
Don G should contribute to this response - however it sounds like you have a lot of weather helm. Some amount of weather helm is necessary, it's the natural ability of your boat to point into the wind and slow down if you let go of the tiller. As far as corrections, too many variables, but if the wind is >10 knots, try to flatten your main - look at your head sail - if you have a large genny, flatten her as well (e.g. move the jib lead postion aft). Sitting on the rail will help as well. Also, on a Catalina 22, as you approach 15 - 20 mph wind speed, you should start thinking of reefing - look that up this also reduces windage... good luck.
Don G should contribute to this response - however it sounds like you have a lot of weather helm. Some amount of weather helm is necessary, it's the natural ability of your boat to point into the wind and slow down if you let go of the tiller. As far as corrections, too many variables, but if the wind is >10 knots, try to flatten your main - look at your head sail - if you have a large genny, flatten her as well (e.g. move the jib lead postion aft). Sitting on the rail will help as well. Also, on a Catalina 22, as you approach 15 - 20 mph wind speed, you should start thinking of reefing - look that up this also reduces windage... good luck.
Learning
I did briefly look it up in a book last night and it does look like weather helm and I do agree that maybe I should have let the jib out some more? It just seemed to require a lot of force to old the tiller. I was kind of worried that the thing would suddenly snap off at the end. Yeah, I got a lot to learn about this. There are a lot more adjustments than my old Lido 14. Tom
I did briefly look it up in a book last night and it does look like weather helm and I do agree that maybe I should have let the jib out some more? It just seemed to require a lot of force to old the tiller. I was kind of worried that the thing would suddenly snap off at the end. Yeah, I got a lot to learn about this. There are a lot more adjustments than my old Lido 14. Tom
Turn
I should have commented on the direction. If I let go of the tiller, it would have turned INTO the wind.
I should have commented on the direction. If I let go of the tiller, it would have turned INTO the wind.
I'm a little confused by what tegwilym is saying.
I would expect a Cat 22 to have weather helm as Ross describes, but tegwilym said that the boat wants to point down DOWNWIND in a breeze. This would suggest lee helm, which is less desirable than a touch of weather helm. Teg, did you mean that the boat wants to turn UPWIND? This is the more likely thing to happen (assuming you were on an upwind leg or a beam reach). You're description of the tiller response ... having to pull on the tiller rather than push the tiller (assuming you were sitting on the windward side as most sailors will in those conditions) ... suggests weather helm and not lee helm. In the case of weather helm (the boat wants to round up into the wind) you could reef the main to put the center of effort more forward and balance the weather helm. If you really did have lee helm (the boat wants to turn downwind), you could reduce the area of your jib or genny to bring the center of effort further back for balance. Reading between the lines, it sounds more like you had weather helm.
I would expect a Cat 22 to have weather helm as Ross describes, but tegwilym said that the boat wants to point down DOWNWIND in a breeze. This would suggest lee helm, which is less desirable than a touch of weather helm. Teg, did you mean that the boat wants to turn UPWIND? This is the more likely thing to happen (assuming you were on an upwind leg or a beam reach). You're description of the tiller response ... having to pull on the tiller rather than push the tiller (assuming you were sitting on the windward side as most sailors will in those conditions) ... suggests weather helm and not lee helm. In the case of weather helm (the boat wants to round up into the wind) you could reef the main to put the center of effort more forward and balance the weather helm. If you really did have lee helm (the boat wants to turn downwind), you could reduce the area of your jib or genny to bring the center of effort further back for balance. Reading between the lines, it sounds more like you had weather helm.
Is your rudder all the way down?
I don't have a Catalina 22, so I don't really know, but on my Macgregor, if the rudder isn't ALL the way down, there is a huge difference in pressure on the tiller.
I don't have a Catalina 22, so I don't really know, but on my Macgregor, if the rudder isn't ALL the way down, there is a huge difference in pressure on the tiller.
Did I miss name this ? weather helm turns the boat
such that you must compensate by holding just a little bit to the weather. (desirable) "Lee helm" if you let go of the tiller the boat turns down wind. I think the definition of the cause and the cure are correct.
such that you must compensate by holding just a little bit to the weather. (desirable) "Lee helm" if you let go of the tiller the boat turns down wind. I think the definition of the cause and the cure are correct.
Just read your later posts ...
"letting the jib out" wouldn't really help reduce your weather helm. What is causing you to round up into the wind is the main sail trim. You could let the traveler out to change the angle of attack of the main, which would help reduce weather helm. If you don't have a traveler, letting out the main sheet would be the next thing to try. Keep in mind this would allow more "twist" in the upper section of the mainsail, which may not be the best thing for your sail trim. Do you have a boom vang? When weather helm becomes too unmanagable even after adjusting your traveler and main sheet, it is probably time to reef the main sail.
"letting the jib out" wouldn't really help reduce your weather helm. What is causing you to round up into the wind is the main sail trim. You could let the traveler out to change the angle of attack of the main, which would help reduce weather helm. If you don't have a traveler, letting out the main sheet would be the next thing to try. Keep in mind this would allow more "twist" in the upper section of the mainsail, which may not be the best thing for your sail trim. Do you have a boom vang? When weather helm becomes too unmanagable even after adjusting your traveler and main sheet, it is probably time to reef the main sail.
Vang and other things....
Ok, just to clarify. When I'm sailing in a good wind, heeled over, and moving along at hull speed with the keel cable howling below.... Wind at my back, and I'm pulling the tiller to keep it going straight. If I let go of the tiller, it will pull away from me, and the boat will turn and face into the wind. Weatherhelm - if I"m getting this correct. Yes, my boat has a boom vang, traveler, and all the attachments. I'll have to shamefully admit that even though I've been doing a lot of sailing in my life, I'm self taught and kind of a bonehead when it comes to the proper terms -- but I'm catching up now!
Tom
Ok, just to clarify. When I'm sailing in a good wind, heeled over, and moving along at hull speed with the keel cable howling below.... Wind at my back, and I'm pulling the tiller to keep it going straight. If I let go of the tiller, it will pull away from me, and the boat will turn and face into the wind. Weatherhelm - if I"m getting this correct. Yes, my boat has a boom vang, traveler, and all the attachments. I'll have to shamefully admit that even though I've been doing a lot of sailing in my life, I'm self taught and kind of a bonehead when it comes to the proper terms -- but I'm catching up now!
TomTry to keep her "on her feet" ...
for better sailing performance. It is also makes most people more comfortable to sail in a boat that is heeling no more than 15 degrees. One thing that happens when you heel over excessively is that there may be far less rudder actually in the water, which makes it all that much harder to control the tiller. Stan is right, you might want to make sure you have your rudder fully extended. I suppose that you could experiment with the angle of your centerboard as you reach boat speed. It makes some sense that the center of resistance could be moved back this way to be more in balance with the center of effort in the sails. I am not familiar with how a Cat 22 performs but I would tend to find ways to sail at boat speed with the boat more upright (besides, with the centerboard raked back, you may be making more leeway than you want). This is where I would start with letting the traveler out. This allows you to maintain the basic sail trim, and only adjust the angle of attack. All that weather helm is slow because you have to pull the tiller hard over to counter act the unbalanced helm. The rudder is acting like a huge brake, dragging thru the water at an un-natural angle. If you let the traveler out and maintain good sail trim (with the mainsheet and the vang), your boat will sail more upright, "on her feet", and your rudder will be basically angled in the direction you are traveling, basically straight ahead with far less friction thru the water. I think that many boats perform best at varying angles of heel. With our shoal draft keel and spade rudder, it appears to me that we achieve our best performance at a heeling angle of about 25 degrees. Up to that point, we are relatively comfortable and have managable weather helm. From 25 to 30 degrees, we are balancing between being performance oriented and being overwhelmed (over 30). I am lucky in that my crew likes to sail up to about 20 degrees, then we have to be on our toes too much after we are consistently heeling up to 25 degrees. Up to 15 degrees seems to be the comfort zone for most people, but I find that we are always seeking more performance at that point. Keep in mind that we sail on a lake with very small waves and warm water, so intimidation is not a factor. I have no doubt that if we were in more open water in a colder environment, our comfort zone would be different.
for better sailing performance. It is also makes most people more comfortable to sail in a boat that is heeling no more than 15 degrees. One thing that happens when you heel over excessively is that there may be far less rudder actually in the water, which makes it all that much harder to control the tiller. Stan is right, you might want to make sure you have your rudder fully extended. I suppose that you could experiment with the angle of your centerboard as you reach boat speed. It makes some sense that the center of resistance could be moved back this way to be more in balance with the center of effort in the sails. I am not familiar with how a Cat 22 performs but I would tend to find ways to sail at boat speed with the boat more upright (besides, with the centerboard raked back, you may be making more leeway than you want). This is where I would start with letting the traveler out. This allows you to maintain the basic sail trim, and only adjust the angle of attack. All that weather helm is slow because you have to pull the tiller hard over to counter act the unbalanced helm. The rudder is acting like a huge brake, dragging thru the water at an un-natural angle. If you let the traveler out and maintain good sail trim (with the mainsheet and the vang), your boat will sail more upright, "on her feet", and your rudder will be basically angled in the direction you are traveling, basically straight ahead with far less friction thru the water. I think that many boats perform best at varying angles of heel. With our shoal draft keel and spade rudder, it appears to me that we achieve our best performance at a heeling angle of about 25 degrees. Up to that point, we are relatively comfortable and have managable weather helm. From 25 to 30 degrees, we are balancing between being performance oriented and being overwhelmed (over 30). I am lucky in that my crew likes to sail up to about 20 degrees, then we have to be on our toes too much after we are consistently heeling up to 25 degrees. Up to 15 degrees seems to be the comfort zone for most people, but I find that we are always seeking more performance at that point. Keep in mind that we sail on a lake with very small waves and warm water, so intimidation is not a factor. I have no doubt that if we were in more open water in a colder environment, our comfort zone would be different.
Experiment
Everyone on here has good advice. I might add that every boat is a little bit different, sooooooooo. Read and understand what the other posters are telling you, then go out and sail the boat. Experiment with the sails,as indicated here, making small changes in sail trim and note how they effect the weather helm. Sometimes a very slight change in trim, will have a major effect on weather helm. In light to meduim air, it should be possible to trim the boat so that she nearly steers herself.
Everyone on here has good advice. I might add that every boat is a little bit different, sooooooooo. Read and understand what the other posters are telling you, then go out and sail the boat. Experiment with the sails,as indicated here, making small changes in sail trim and note how they effect the weather helm. Sometimes a very slight change in trim, will have a major effect on weather helm. In light to meduim air, it should be possible to trim the boat so that she nearly steers herself.
Rudder Pin?
I haven't actually read everyone's responses, but when I started sailing I was having the same exact problem. It felt like the tiller was going to bust in two and I'm a pretty strong guy. I found out that if you don't have a down haul or rudder pin holding the rudder down that she floats up when you're sailing and you get crazy forces on the rudder & tiller. So after reading your initial post, the rudder pin screamed out at me. I hope this helps. -Sean
I haven't actually read everyone's responses, but when I started sailing I was having the same exact problem. It felt like the tiller was going to bust in two and I'm a pretty strong guy. I found out that if you don't have a down haul or rudder pin holding the rudder down that she floats up when you're sailing and you get crazy forces on the rudder & tiller. So after reading your initial post, the rudder pin screamed out at me. I hope this helps. -Sean
Rudder and other things.
Thanks for the ideas guys, I'll try to comment on each thing.... Rudder pin - My rudder does seem to stay down pretty tight so its just a matter of getting it all the way down and tightening it in place. I do think I had it swept back a little more than I should have. I did drop it lower while sailing, so it probably didn't get as far down as it should. Sails - my sails are a few years old I think. It's a used boat, so I forget exactly how old they are. They are definitely still pretty stiff, so they have a few seasons left in them for sure. I'll have to post some more photos of them I think. I'm still not totally sure how to flatten the sail and adjust the camber, angle of attack, chord...etc (using pilot wing terms since I'm also a flight instructor). As for storing the sail when done for the day, I try to neatly fold the sail over the boom, then put the cover on it. I then take the whole bundle off and store it in the cabin. I've been stuffing the jib in the bag though, probably should do something neater than that. Keel - Yeah, I did pull the keel back a little bit, but probably not enough to make a difference. The cable was making a neat howling noise when I reached hull speed. I know how the boat will sing at top speed now! Heeling - I was going along at probably 15-20 degrees heeling when I got it going good, but that is when I had the most work on the tiller. Fortunately, my girfriend isn't upset about heeling. Seems a lot of women get concerned about that from what I've read? Hehe! Anyway, I'm hoping for good weather again this weekend to take her out again and play. I just can't get enough of this! Sure beats motor boating if you ask me. ....and with these $3.27 (as of today) gas prices...Ugh! Tom
Thanks for the ideas guys, I'll try to comment on each thing.... Rudder pin - My rudder does seem to stay down pretty tight so its just a matter of getting it all the way down and tightening it in place. I do think I had it swept back a little more than I should have. I did drop it lower while sailing, so it probably didn't get as far down as it should. Sails - my sails are a few years old I think. It's a used boat, so I forget exactly how old they are. They are definitely still pretty stiff, so they have a few seasons left in them for sure. I'll have to post some more photos of them I think. I'm still not totally sure how to flatten the sail and adjust the camber, angle of attack, chord...etc (using pilot wing terms since I'm also a flight instructor). As for storing the sail when done for the day, I try to neatly fold the sail over the boom, then put the cover on it. I then take the whole bundle off and store it in the cabin. I've been stuffing the jib in the bag though, probably should do something neater than that. Keel - Yeah, I did pull the keel back a little bit, but probably not enough to make a difference. The cable was making a neat howling noise when I reached hull speed. I know how the boat will sing at top speed now!
Heeling - I was going along at probably 15-20 degrees heeling when I got it going good, but that is when I had the most work on the tiller. Fortunately, my girfriend isn't upset about heeling. Seems a lot of women get concerned about that from what I've read? Hehe! Anyway, I'm hoping for good weather again this weekend to take her out again and play. I just can't get enough of this! Sure beats motor boating if you ask me. ....and with these $3.27 (as of today) gas prices...Ugh! Tom- Status