Finally Gonna Be A HOW!!

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Aug 11, 2006
1,446
Hunter H260 Traverse City
First let me say I have appreciated all of your post on this page very much. It helped make my buying decision easier. Now the exciting part, I placed the order for my new 460 this weekend and I am looking forward to taking delivery in late January (or early Feb.)!!! We are haveing the boat provisioned by Florida Yach Charters in Miami. We have chartered from them in the past and have been quite impressed. Because we plan to place the boat in their charter program, we have ordered the 4 cabin config. We are also getting the 75 horse yanmar, a 5.5 Kw Northern Lights gen, Freedom 20 charger/inverter, Raytheon 6000+ autopilot, Raytheon 398 GPS. We are installing a dual head VHF (Horizen intrepid). Autofurling main and dual zone AC. With all that said, I am looking for advice about what to look out for, what you current owners would do different, and things I need to check when accepting. This is our first Hunter, but not our first boat. Thanks in advance for your help!! George Lamb
 
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Bob Bass

Good choice!

Good choice on your new boat. I recommend that you also install the Link 1000 battery monitor to work with your Hart inverter. It will certainly help your house batteries last longer. When commissioning, be sure to load up the frig with something (try beer) and put several milk cartons of water in the freezer. Put thermometers in each and monitor. Watch for water condensing on the lids. If there is much over a couple of drops, then your lids are not sealed. Also check all the other places that could leak cold air such as the box joints and where the freon tubes enter. You might want to upgrade to the Raycor 500 fuel filters for both engines. Since the boat is going into charter, I strongly recommend that you go with all chain on the main anchor with a CQR. The Keys and Bahamas have so much grass that the standard danfourth is not good unless you dive and set it. You might also want to upgrade your engine room blower to one that is rated for continuous use. Our boat is 2.5 years old and has no diesel smell at all because I run the blower when I run either engine. I also put in an intake vent into the engine room. All power boats have them and a cruising auxiliary is just a trawler with a woody. Good luck and keep us up to date on the HOW about your commissioning. Feel free to contact me direct from the Hunter Owners list in HOW. Bob Bass S/V Toucan Dream <:}}}}><
 
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Bob Knott

My 2 Cents

Fist congrats on your new boat and your choices. It seems well thought out and a great charter group. My only thought was the autopilot might be undersized for your boat, I own a 380 with the autohelm 6000+ and it's an awesome unit, and works flawlessly, but my boat only wieghs 16,800 lbs. and maybe 20,000 maxed out with four people and goods. The 460 must be heavier and maybe the 7000 autopilot would be a better choice. All the 450's I've seen have the 7000+ Just my 2 cents, and again congrats Bob Knott
 
Jun 5, 1997
659
Coleman scanoe Irwin (ID)
When the time is right: DO get a REAL main!

Congratulations with a very nice boat! What's her name? We have a Legend 43 (hull # 1) and always enjoy looking at the new Hunters, including the HC50. Like you, we started out putting our boat in a limited charter program (in Santa Barbara, California). The choices you made sound like good ones, particularly for a charter program boat, although I agree with the previous responder that it may be better to get the larger autopilot. I am assuming that one day you plan to take your boat out of charter and do some extended cruising (if not, don't read the rest of this post). If that is indeed your plan; you may then want to consider two different choices: (1) dump the mast furled main and get a full battened one with a big roach, so you will be able to point high enough not to have to follow the old square-rigger routes (which invariably tend to bring you to areas where you are more likely to run into some Real Baaad Weather, for which Hunters were not necessarily built); (2) dump the autopilot and get a good windvane that starts working better in strong winds, rather than handing the helm back to you when you need your rest most, as your autopilot will do (we went throught the whole range of Navico wheel and tiller pilots before we got our windvane). Finally, at that time, consider adding an inner forestay (with mainsail and running backstays) plus beefing up your anchoring set-up and you'll be all set for tough offshore and coastal conditions. Flying Dutchman "Rivendel II", currently in Townsville, Australia
 
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Rich

Autofurling Main

Just a couple of thoughts about the furling main (assuming you're talking in mast?). I've sailed a couple of charter boats that had them and was less than impressed. One big problem is that the boom has to be set just right to get them to operate smoothly. Since you'll have a lot of people sailing your boat that aren't going to be familiar with the system you may find that it is often getting jammed or worse. I also once found myself in 15 ft seas and 35+ knot winds with a furling main. It was not a lot of fun trying to hold that boat into the wind and winching in a reef (on a boat that big it'll have to be winched). All I can say is at that moment I wanted the jiffy reef that I have on my own boat and wanted to be able to drop the halyard fast (can't do that on an in mast furler). Just a few thoughts based on my own experience. Sounds like a beautiful boat. Good Luck!
 
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Michael Cohn

Rich has a point

For the sake of safety, I would certainly, if you still can, reconsider your purchase of that autofurling main; my experiences with them have ranged from frustrating to downright dangerous. You can save a lot of money and weight by switching to a combination of the following: 1. Harken Battcar slides on your full-length battens. 2. An electric halyard winch. 3. A Dutchman system. The Harken slides allow the main to come down easily; the halyard winch makes putting it up- as easy as pushing a button; the Dutchman makes sure it stays on top of the boom when it comes down. Also, you will find many other useful things to do with that halyard winch! Remember: you save money, the boat goes faster (better cut on the main, less weight), and you don't have to worry about a jam when you least need it. I realize that the apparent convenience of these devices is very seductive, especially on big boats. However, people fail to realize that there is a price for everything, and, in this case, the price is safety. Best of luck with your new boat! MC
 
Aug 11, 2006
1,446
Hunter H260 Traverse City
Confused

OK, now I am a little confused. This confusion stems from the suggestion that the Raytheon 6000 plus may not be the right unit for the 460. My understanding was that both the 6000 and the 7000 units were modular. In other words, with either control head you can pick the appropriate drive unit for your boat. Isn't the biggest difference in ability to handle the tiller in the size and type of modular drive unit installed? And do not both the 6000 and the 7000 have the same list of possible drive units? If I am wrong about this, please let me know so that I can consider changing my order. Thanks George
 
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Wayne Fredrick

Whitlock Steering??

George, I have not seen the new 460, but know it uses the same basic hull as my 450. I am not sure the 460 uses the Whitlock steering system that is used on the 450, but if it does, Whitlock makes a special autopilot drive unit that bolts right onto steering assembly. My dealer said it was the easiest autopilot system he ever installed and I was told it can use either the Raytheon 6000 or 7000 control unit. There are only a few differences between the 2 control heads. My system has worked flawlessly. As for the in-mast furling, I think the comments about safety might be warranted, but the ease of handling is outstanding. Yes you lose a few degrees of pointing ability, but with unlimited reef points you can really balance the boat in any conditions. The way I look at it, some of the most expensive boats built now are being offered standard with in-mast furling.
 
Jun 5, 1997
659
Coleman scanoe Irwin (ID)
Wayne, you are right, but....

You are right about the expensive boats and mast furling. However, the majority of these expensive boats (Crealock, Cabo Rico, Morris, etc.) have "classical" sailplans that base most of their drive on the 150 % masthead genoa and much less on the small main. Whether that main has battens or not makes relatively little difference, therefore. Also, when furled these small mains do not add quite as much weight to the mast. Of course, these boats don't go to weather particularly well, whether equipped with a battened or with a furling main. The large Hunters have much more "radical" sailplans that accomodate maximally a 110% jib and derive most of their drive from the large, battened main. Now you have a boat that can go to weather like a charm (and thus explore less risky upwind cruising routes) but needs a lot of extra work to go downwind well, e.g. in the trades (my solution is a wing-on-wing genoa and staysail combination). However, take away the large roach, full battened main, and you have effectively cut off Samson's manes. Now all your Hunter can still do relatively well is sail on a beam reach. However, any tub can do THAT...... Flying Dutchman
 
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Richard Owen

460 Congratulations

George - You should like this boat. It sails well. Our boat has the standard rig - which comes with an electric halyard winch, lazy jacks, and the fixed sail cover. Although the sail cover should have had a bit more cloth in it, it works very well. Our decision to go with the standard main was based on the fact that this rig (B&R, with no backstay) was designed for a small jib and a full roach main. In fact, if you have a furled main, why not add a backstay and remove the rake in the shrouds as well. I'm only half serious here, and I'm sure not arguing with those who decide on the furled rig because it's easier to handle - to each his own - but there is a cost to have this convenience. We have no problem handling our rig, I can sail it myself quite easily. I am also aware that mainsail furling in charter fleets has become pretty standard. Our boat has Edson steering, not Whitlock. You are right about the autopilot. It's the selection of the drive unit that makes the difference. The 6000 control is fine. The boat comes with 110V Grunnert refridgeration. It is a very efficient but power hungry system. Since you have the generator, it shouldn't be a problem. Our system had a few problems and it still has one - the fridge won't start when the diesel is running. We are still waiting for a solution. Heart says that the genset should be at least 6KW. Has the factory found a way around this??? Maybe the 5.5 is close enough. If you intend to use the boat yuorself, I would think again about the 4 cabins idea. My thinking is that the forward cabin is one of the really great features of this boat and I sure wouldn't want to be without it. In addition, it may be better to encourage the boat to be chartered by smaller groups (6 seems to be enough for my money) rather than have it loaded up with 8-10. Just some thoughts. Enjoy the experience. I can give you more direct info if you wish to contact me directly. ROwen. rowen@direct.ca
 
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Mark Johnson

Welcome George!

My 460 has the 8KW Northern Lights and it is a little undersized (my opinion). If in fact you are getting the 5.5kw you won't be able to run all the stuff you mentioned. Rethink that one and get a larger generator. Good luck with the new boat. She's a beauty. MPJ
 
Sep 24, 1999
1,511
Hunter H46LE Sausalito
pointing ability

the fullness of your roach is about power, not about pointing ability. pointing ability comes almost entirely from shape, especially in the luff, and is primarily dependent on the shape of the slot. one of my neighbors has a freedom 44 ketch with two full-battened (big-roached) sails but no headsails--can't point higher than about 47 degrees. with my furling main, even with its negative roach, i generally point about 35 degrees, and would be able to get a few degrees higher if i switched to kevlar sails, which hold their shape better. there's a lot of misinformation out there about furling mains, just as there used to be a lot of hysteria about furling jibs. the flat earth society doesn't seem to understand that in-mast-furling systems still use a halyard, and that the main can always be dropped should the furler fail. it's an extremely safe way to sail because you'll tend to reef earlier--without having to leave the cockpit--and will have more options to balance the rig. a balanced rig, by the way, will always outpoint an overpowered rig once leeway is figured into the formula......... enjoy your new boat!
 
Jun 5, 1997
659
Coleman scanoe Irwin (ID)
Flat earthlings calling flat water sailors

John, There is a lot of good information in your post but seemingly some "misinformation" as well (to use your own expression). First of all, could you please explain how a half-furled main that has gotten stuck can "simply be dropped" by releasing the halyard? Where does the roll of canvas already inside the mechanism go to? Or are you talking about one of the old-fashioned, open-roll type mast furlers? I have nothing against a furling main but fail to see why anyone would want to accept all the disadvantages of mast furling (see HOW archives) whereas perfectly good boom furling solutions are now available. Secondly, pointing ability may indeed not be seriously affected when using a battenless new sail, as long as the shape -- and thus angle of attack -- of the luff remains the same. On a well used sail, however, full battens will have a significant effect on luff shape. If you don't believe that, just try to push a batten into place while the sail is drawing a little..... I agree, however, that the slot between headsail and main is very important for promoting early attachment of the air flow, especially with the mast acting as a spoiler (not to mention a mast plus furling mechanism). Finally, although the shape of the polar diagram of a sailboat with a (new) battenless, roachless sail and a full battened, full roach main might well be about the same (i.e. pointing ability may be comparable in flat water), the loss of net drive power will make a big difference in swells and waves. True upwind ability in moderate to heavy seas, e.g. your typical tradewind conditions, is as much a function of drive as of (flat-water) pointing ability. Without ample drive power you will soon be stopped by the waves when trying to sail closer to wind and seas. Don't look for your genoa to provide much drive under these conditions, even when sheeted well inboard. Fair winds and flat seas! Flying Dutchman
 
Sep 24, 1999
1,511
Hunter H46LE Sausalito
stuck?

henk, i'm having a hard time visualizing how a half-furled main is going to get "stuck." even if a main is loosly/sloppily furled, it might tend to jam at first, but once about 30% of the sail is pulled out there is no longer enough material inside the mast to cause a problem. when i was first learning to use my system i had a couple situations where i had to work it back and forth a few times to free a wrinkle, but this is really not a hard process--nothing like having to free a sheet that wrapped on a winch. anyway, you're right in that the sail will have to be pulled all the way out to drop it. the fear of not being able to accomplish this, however, is misplaced. perhaps a few of the early, 1980's era in-mast furling systems had problems, but i'll tell you that the system on my boat (seldon) is about as close to bomb-proof as you're ever going to get in a sailboat. i'm much more likely to jam my jib furler than my main, especially if i've been playing with the spinnaker. so what happens if you jam a jib furler? let's suppose that you've attempted to roll it up and the spinnaker halyard wrapped up in it. easy to fix, you simply unroll it, stow the halyard properly, and then roll it back up. same thing with a furling main, if it "jams" on the way out, roll it back in a few inches, allowing it to free itself, and then roll it back....... okay, so lets look at the other side of in-mast furling. suppose you see a squaw coming on the horizon. a big one. you decide to put the main away. two steps: (1) you release the outhaul, (2) you pull in on the inhaul. zip. on a big boat like a 410 this takes all of 10 seconds, even for my petite (5'3") wife. you never have to leave the cockpit. when the winds freshen up in the afternoon, we instantly can have the exact size mainsail we need, without having to go forward to reset a cunningham, et cetera. that's safety. how often, with conventional systems, do you see situations where someone has to go to the mast to pull down on the main because there's too much pressure on the sail track? all the time, especially in high winds. this is not a problem with in-mast furling............ i find it interesting that the people who are always talking about these systems "jamming" are people who haven't used them. are there boat owners out there who have had jamming problems on their own systems? if so, please let us hear about them, and let us know what system you have (i.e.: hood, z-spar, seldon). i admit that i wouldn't own an in-mast furler if i lived in a light-air region such as southern california. but i don't. in my home waters we pretty much expect 25 knots of breeze every afternoon. am i willing to sacrifice a bit of power to gain the safety of in-mast furling? you betcha. that's why i also opted for a deep keel and for 9-ounce working sails. all boats/rigs are compromises. and i'll tell you, with over 100 sailing days logged on the new rig, it's the safest thing going in big winds. as i've said before, it takes me longer to don my foulies than it does to shorten sail.
 
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Greg

Welcome

George Hope you enjoy your new boat as much we have enjoyed our '99 420. Our boat is also in charter with Florida Yacht so if you have any questions about them feel free to send a message. Hope you weren't planning to put the boat in the Bahamas for awhile. I agree that roller furling main is best for a boat in charter as you want the safest, easiest to manage boat possible for these vacation sailors--performance is about ninth on the list of priorities. We have the full batten main with the power winch--both are prone to misuse and abuse by the occasional sailor, especially the winch as people seem to think its OK to hook any of the lines to the winch and just crank away. You would not believe.... Anyway best of luck. Greg Beckner S/V Champagne Girl
 
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