Really general slew of questions on fiberglass -where's a good place to purchase fiberglass matt / fabric / resins? Do home improvement outlets carry the stuff? Is there such a thing as "grades" of fiberglass? What is blushing? Is "tiger hair" ok to use on a boat? (polyester resin and glass stands, but it's very goopy and applies almost like body filler)
Fiberglass
- Thread starter Brian M H23
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How much glass fabric do you need?
Jamestown distributors sells prepackaged and 1 ,3, 10 and 25 yard cut pieces and full rolls. The tiger hair is just chopped strand filled resin with a thixotropic additive, it makes a good filler stronger than fairing compound. You didn't ask about resin but you should know that you can buy resin(polyester) with wax and without wax. Without wax it stays tacky and you can add layers without sanding and an acetone wipe. All of the resin sold by the Home stores and West Marine is with wax. Blush is the amine blush that forms on the surface of epoxy when it cures. Some brands have more of a problem with blushing than others. Blush must be washed off before you paint.
Jamestown distributors sells prepackaged and 1 ,3, 10 and 25 yard cut pieces and full rolls. The tiger hair is just chopped strand filled resin with a thixotropic additive, it makes a good filler stronger than fairing compound. You didn't ask about resin but you should know that you can buy resin(polyester) with wax and without wax. Without wax it stays tacky and you can add layers without sanding and an acetone wipe. All of the resin sold by the Home stores and West Marine is with wax. Blush is the amine blush that forms on the surface of epoxy when it cures. Some brands have more of a problem with blushing than others. Blush must be washed off before you paint.
Fibreglass
I know a realy good store but it is in Toronto. Want to know more about fibreglass and resins. Try Don Casey's book "Sailboat Hull and Deck Repair". It will tell you about different types of glass and resins but more important, when and where to use them. Charlie
I know a realy good store but it is in Toronto. Want to know more about fibreglass and resins. Try Don Casey's book "Sailboat Hull and Deck Repair". It will tell you about different types of glass and resins but more important, when and where to use them. Charlie
Fiberglass components
I get the West System epoxy, epoxy fillers(additives - micro ballons),glass matt(cloth), at any West Marine store. This stuff is not available at the usual home improvement stores as it is strictly for marine (or outdoor) use. I get my acetone (thinners), gloves, rags, dust masks etc at a hardware or big box store. West Marine or Boat US and other web chandleries carry this stuff and deliver it to your door for a price. That said... There are different grades of fiberglass cloth. There are different weight cloths and materials for use in different applications (4, 6, 8 oz. cloth, and filler grade strands); the lighter stuff if more for finishing projects and the heavier stuff is more for structural or filler applications. There are different brands of epoxy that you can get and polyester resins that may be cheaper than West System but I have little experience with any of them. The West System is easy to use; I recommend you get their catalog or better yet check out their website that explains basically everything about epoxy based fiberglassing for different applications (and no, I do not work for them). Polyester resins are used for marine applications but for repair work epoxy has superior adhesion to all surfaces, or so I have read. It is kind of messy stuff to work with so I like that West System has already thought out most of the basic stuff for you like mixing ratios and spreading tools and additives for adhesion, filling or fairing. I am not sure what "blushing" is. As for tiger hair and polyester resin, you could use Bondo on your boat if you wanted to if it is non-structural but I would resist the temptation. I have seen tiger hair used by sculptors and though it may dry hard I use the epoxy/cloth version because of epoxys superior adhesion and strength.
I get the West System epoxy, epoxy fillers(additives - micro ballons),glass matt(cloth), at any West Marine store. This stuff is not available at the usual home improvement stores as it is strictly for marine (or outdoor) use. I get my acetone (thinners), gloves, rags, dust masks etc at a hardware or big box store. West Marine or Boat US and other web chandleries carry this stuff and deliver it to your door for a price. That said... There are different grades of fiberglass cloth. There are different weight cloths and materials for use in different applications (4, 6, 8 oz. cloth, and filler grade strands); the lighter stuff if more for finishing projects and the heavier stuff is more for structural or filler applications. There are different brands of epoxy that you can get and polyester resins that may be cheaper than West System but I have little experience with any of them. The West System is easy to use; I recommend you get their catalog or better yet check out their website that explains basically everything about epoxy based fiberglassing for different applications (and no, I do not work for them). Polyester resins are used for marine applications but for repair work epoxy has superior adhesion to all surfaces, or so I have read. It is kind of messy stuff to work with so I like that West System has already thought out most of the basic stuff for you like mixing ratios and spreading tools and additives for adhesion, filling or fairing. I am not sure what "blushing" is. As for tiger hair and polyester resin, you could use Bondo on your boat if you wanted to if it is non-structural but I would resist the temptation. I have seen tiger hair used by sculptors and though it may dry hard I use the epoxy/cloth version because of epoxys superior adhesion and strength.
The West system is superb for people that don't
have the time or inclination to research the subject. Remember that knowledge is valuable, you can acquire it by study or purchase it from suppliers of the products that you use. Epoxy does have superior adhesion properties in most applications but I sincerely doubt that you could tell the difference between well prepared and executed repair done in polyester and one done in epoxy. If you are planning a multilayer fiberglass lay-up buy equal amounts of chopped strand mat and woven cloth. you get a much better density of glass to resin with that combination than with woven cloth only.
have the time or inclination to research the subject. Remember that knowledge is valuable, you can acquire it by study or purchase it from suppliers of the products that you use. Epoxy does have superior adhesion properties in most applications but I sincerely doubt that you could tell the difference between well prepared and executed repair done in polyester and one done in epoxy. If you are planning a multilayer fiberglass lay-up buy equal amounts of chopped strand mat and woven cloth. you get a much better density of glass to resin with that combination than with woven cloth only.
One thing to consider when it comes
to fillers. You can compare fiber filled putty to real wood and power filled putty with medium density fiber board. One will fracture with splinters and the other will fracture like torn paper.
to fillers. You can compare fiber filled putty to real wood and power filled putty with medium density fiber board. One will fracture with splinters and the other will fracture like torn paper.
Resin
I am learning about resins and cloth too, here are a few things that I have learned...and a couple of links that might help. "Bondo" is simply a resin with a filler added already, the reason it is not suggested for marine use is the filler...it is Talc...Which asorbs moisture...which is bad.
I have wondered about tiger hair too, but I would check to see (1) what kind of fillers, and resin it uses, and (2) what kind of resin was used in the construction of your boat in the first place. I dont think that tiger hair would be as strong, as properly layered FG cloth. There is a company that sells on eBay, as well as direct to the public...John Greer has been in the epoxy business since '74...He still runs the business himself...he usually answers the phone! His website explains most of the products...it is very informative! His seller ID is aeromarineproducts his website is jgreer.com I found him while looking at refit sites...several of the folks refitting their Macs, as well as building dinghys, and skiffs swore by Greer's stuff. I plan to use it for the work on my Venture too. Good luck.
I am learning about resins and cloth too, here are a few things that I have learned...and a couple of links that might help. "Bondo" is simply a resin with a filler added already, the reason it is not suggested for marine use is the filler...it is Talc...Which asorbs moisture...which is bad.
I have wondered about tiger hair too, but I would check to see (1) what kind of fillers, and resin it uses, and (2) what kind of resin was used in the construction of your boat in the first place. I dont think that tiger hair would be as strong, as properly layered FG cloth. There is a company that sells on eBay, as well as direct to the public...John Greer has been in the epoxy business since '74...He still runs the business himself...he usually answers the phone! His website explains most of the products...it is very informative! His seller ID is aeromarineproducts his website is jgreer.com I found him while looking at refit sites...several of the folks refitting their Macs, as well as building dinghys, and skiffs swore by Greer's stuff. I plan to use it for the work on my Venture too. Good luck.
Privateer, Of course tiger hair won't be as strong
as properly laid cloth. While the glassfiber may have the same tensile strength the length of the fiber will allow it to be pulled out of the matrix. Chopped strand mat hes fibers typically about 2 inches long. this allows the mat to soften and conform to complex shapes. at the extreme other end of the system is woven roving with strands as thick as shoe laces. it is very strong but refuses to bend much better than around a 2 inch pipe. The result is that you choose the material for the purpose. six ounce cloth will conforn very nicely but you will need four layers to get the strength of a single layer of heavy roving. When I rebuilt Bietzpadlin I used about a hundred and fifty pounds of 1.5 ounce chopped strand mat and about hundred pounds of woven roving and an awful lot of polyester resin.
as properly laid cloth. While the glassfiber may have the same tensile strength the length of the fiber will allow it to be pulled out of the matrix. Chopped strand mat hes fibers typically about 2 inches long. this allows the mat to soften and conform to complex shapes. at the extreme other end of the system is woven roving with strands as thick as shoe laces. it is very strong but refuses to bend much better than around a 2 inch pipe. The result is that you choose the material for the purpose. six ounce cloth will conforn very nicely but you will need four layers to get the strength of a single layer of heavy roving. When I rebuilt Bietzpadlin I used about a hundred and fifty pounds of 1.5 ounce chopped strand mat and about hundred pounds of woven roving and an awful lot of polyester resin.
Do a little reading first
Anyone who is going to use the various plastic resins & glass or synthetic reinforcing fibers should first take the trouble to aquire a little basic knowledge, and there's a lot of useful information available, some of it for free. West System has a number of low cost handbooks available, and I'm sure other manufacturers do as well. You don't have to use their porducts, but at least the info you get from a reputable mfg. can be relied on. Beware of the f'glass products that are sold in many auto parts outlets: some may be OK but the main target for products like 'tiger hair' is to effect quick & dirty repairs on dents & rusted areas in old clunker cars. Even though polyester & vinylester resins are used in almost all production f'glass boats ( they're a lot cheaper than epoxies & easier to use ) when it comes to repairs or modifications I'd prefer using epoxy as it has superior bonding and greater strength. I'm not suggesting that we have to become self-taught chemical engineers to fix or modify our boats properly, but given the growing costs of everything and the increasing sophistication of the products available, it's better to get some info from the people that make the products and have a stake in their successful use, rather than relying on anecdotal information.
Anyone who is going to use the various plastic resins & glass or synthetic reinforcing fibers should first take the trouble to aquire a little basic knowledge, and there's a lot of useful information available, some of it for free. West System has a number of low cost handbooks available, and I'm sure other manufacturers do as well. You don't have to use their porducts, but at least the info you get from a reputable mfg. can be relied on. Beware of the f'glass products that are sold in many auto parts outlets: some may be OK but the main target for products like 'tiger hair' is to effect quick & dirty repairs on dents & rusted areas in old clunker cars. Even though polyester & vinylester resins are used in almost all production f'glass boats ( they're a lot cheaper than epoxies & easier to use ) when it comes to repairs or modifications I'd prefer using epoxy as it has superior bonding and greater strength. I'm not suggesting that we have to become self-taught chemical engineers to fix or modify our boats properly, but given the growing costs of everything and the increasing sophistication of the products available, it's better to get some info from the people that make the products and have a stake in their successful use, rather than relying on anecdotal information.
good source
Defender Industries has been in the business for a long time. I bought resin and cloth from them in the early 70s when I was building a glass sheathed wooden daysailer, and have been a customer off and on since then. I've found MAS brand epoxy resin to be as good or better than West, and at a noticeably lower price. Defender stocks a number of weights of cloth and related supplies. Their catalogue has some good descriptions of the various types of glass cloth as well as kevlar, dynel, etc.
Defender Industries has been in the business for a long time. I bought resin and cloth from them in the early 70s when I was building a glass sheathed wooden daysailer, and have been a customer off and on since then. I've found MAS brand epoxy resin to be as good or better than West, and at a noticeably lower price. Defender stocks a number of weights of cloth and related supplies. Their catalogue has some good descriptions of the various types of glass cloth as well as kevlar, dynel, etc.
Here!
hehe..I ususally do all my posting at work..but considering the holiday I havent been around! For this very moment, all i'm doing is repairing my rudder with tiger hair, but sometime this winter I want to drill some holes in my centerboard and add some weight. Now that I know a little more about fiberglass and how much it costs, I can go about planning new projects using it! By the way, I'm about 25 miles NW of philadelphia- but only for the next week. Then my internship is up and I'll be going to rochester for the winter (and possibly beyond). I have a feeling, If I bring my boat along with me and start sailing lake ontario, my chances of not moving back home after college are significantly higher. Then again it's still really cold..and i'm not such a fan.
hehe..I ususally do all my posting at work..but considering the holiday I havent been around! For this very moment, all i'm doing is repairing my rudder with tiger hair, but sometime this winter I want to drill some holes in my centerboard and add some weight. Now that I know a little more about fiberglass and how much it costs, I can go about planning new projects using it! By the way, I'm about 25 miles NW of philadelphia- but only for the next week. Then my internship is up and I'll be going to rochester for the winter (and possibly beyond). I have a feeling, If I bring my boat along with me and start sailing lake ontario, my chances of not moving back home after college are significantly higher. Then again it's still really cold..and i'm not such a fan.
Micro-Coax
Working for Micro-Coax as a manufactuing engineer - we design and modify factory machinery use to produce government-contract wiring that can exceed $1000/foot (and you though boat parts were expensive!)
Working for Micro-Coax as a manufactuing engineer - we design and modify factory machinery use to produce government-contract wiring that can exceed $1000/foot (and you though boat parts were expensive!)
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