Feeling a little green?

[Tereza]

Green, yes

Yes, I do feel green, but that's not why I do it. There is that innate love of working with nature, hoping to learn enough to get along with her, and not get clobbered by her! I do feel a bit green because I use no bottom paint - just lean my boat over on its side and scrub a bit - don't even use soap. (I know that's not exactly an option for EVERYONE!)I too hope gas prices go higher - but only if it's via taxes that are WISELY used for mass transit and real alternative fuel options.No matter what, we gots to stop dumping on our planet!Sorry - don't know how to respond to the question without a bit of a political rant...

 

[Ctskip]

I sail because it's fun

and I like having fun. I do it as often as I can, amongst other things, "smile". If you want to be green go ahead and be green. It's still a free world,(so far). As for the human factor changing the worlds atmosphere, don't flatter yourself. The world doesn't revolve around the human race. Look at the early years when we dumped our feces out the window into the streets below. We are still here thank you, thriving too! The impact the recreational boater has on the world, doesn't amount to a pee hole in the snow. I like taxing of the pigs in their giant vessels, be it on land or water or air. Let them pay for the privilege to pollute. The more they pay, the less we do. They won't mind and we all benefit. Raise the fuel prices to $10 a gallon and you'll see a change in our habits. Till then, nada If you really care about being "green" ( what is green, anyway), You'd recycle and eliminate anything that can't be recycled. Those plastic water bottles are a BIG problem now. We create it. Then we solve it. Its a circle. Hop on and enjoy the ride. Just my opinion. Keep it up, Ctskip

 

[Udjat]

whoa, ctskip!

Its been a long time since we talked buddy but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. If you don't think that humans can have an effect on the planet you're just not paying attention. Some fish stocks have been almost eliminated thru overfishing. I remember when Lake Erie was so polluted a harbor caught fire. Air quality in some cities in the world (China in particular) are so bad that health problems are becoming huge. Now I am not advocating any political cause here but I think we must realize that what we do as a society can have an effect on the environment.

 

[Ctskip]

There are individual cases

where certain societies have done damage to the eco-system. What condition is this bay now? I'll bet, better than what we inherited from our fore fathers. We will recover. We must look at this world as a whole and not just a bay or a river. In japan there is a tuna shortage. Lets worry about that. They will find a way to make more. Just as we have adapted greatly from our forefathers, so will our children adapt from us. Maybe someday, our children's children will have wings and differant lungs. They WILL adapt, just as we have. I worry about container ships, losing their cargo and drunk drivers. It's hard keeping this subject non political, but it can be done. It's good to hear from you  Keep it up, Ctskip

 

[Ross]

Ctskip, you are bang on about how awful our bays

and harbors have been in the past. A reading of the conditions of New York harbor and the Hudson River a hundred years ago will make us feel like saints today. Boston City piped all of the sewage into Boston Harbor untreated for years before they installed treatment plants. Washington's Anacostia River is one of the worst in the country but is a hundred times cleaner today than just fifty years ago.

 

[NautiDuck]

Color me green

We get one planet so we should take care of it. Sailors should be proud of the fact that we use wind, not fuel, to power our boats. We have parked the GMC Yukon and use it for towing only. All other driving is in a Camry Hybrid that gets 40MPG in town. We are saving $ and helping the planet. This from a conservative Republican! It is time for all of use to realize that the earth isn't a gigantic system that can absorb everything we throuw at it. In the whole scheme of things it is small and fragile. We need to take care of it as though our lives, and the future generations' lives, depended on it.

 

[Napa Ed]

Not green

If I wanted to be green, I'd get rid of the boat. Consider all of the resources consumed for an activity that isn't necessary for life or well-being. Boating is an enjoyable activity to share with friends, but so is a phone conversation. I don't need a boat. I keep it for purely selfish reasons and will not attempt to justify my actions.

 

[jviss]

About wanting gas prices to go up.

Why would anyone want gas prices to go up?Tereza expresses this desire only "if it's via taxes that are WISELY used for mass transit and real alternative fuel options."JungleJetJock hopes gas goes up so fewer people will be on the water. I hope he meant this tongue in cheek, but, unfortunately many who express this wish do not. Most times when we hear this it's from liberals who are either elitists, those who want fewer people to be able to access things that require this resource, or socialists who want everyone else to pay for some social engineering program, to achieve some Utopian ideal of ubiquitous mass transit or the elusive "alternative fuel." The fact is there in no good alternative to petroleum, and people really would rather travel around in their own car, on their own schedule, directly to and from precise locations. Except for in very densely populated places mass transit doesn't work, economically or environmentally. Most of America is spread out far and wide, and not a good application for mass transit.Higher gas prices are hardest on the poor and middle class. The upper middle class and rich won't care. Higher gas prices will drive higher costs for all other goods, higher manufacturing costs, and make the U.S. less competitive overseas. Higher gas prices are bad for America, unless, of course, you are a socialist or elitist. As for alternative fuel. The only truly reasonable alternative to perto fuels is nuclear, which I wholeheartedly support. For applications where nuclear won't work, oil is the best. The whole Ethanol fuel thing is a scam, costing more in petroleum products to move a vehicle than if you just used petro fuel in the first place, and causing far more pollution, particularly in fertilizer runoff into rivers, which is killing the Gulf Of Mexico. Ethanol just puts the fuel wealth in fewer hands, via ADM, Cargill, and ConAgra, the big three of corn processors.

 

[Old Salt]

I agree with jviss GuyT and others

I think sailors are more "green" than most people out there, not just motor boaters. Just look around at average people in suburbia USA. Everything is relative though and even though our "plastic" boats are made with petrochemical products once they are made they have a fairly low impact.I gotta comment on Joe from Stockton's comment where he writes "Respect the wise lessons of history. Study and reason." Well than if thats the case whatever impact "Mankind" has on earth is MINISCULE compared to what nature and natural causes has had on the earth.History shows us that any major geoclimatic impact or extinctions happened because of nature not man. Just one good asteroid hitting earth would do more damage than even all the atom bombs "mankinds" has in its arsenalhttp://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/dinosaurs/glossary/K-T.shtmlAround 65 million years ago, a wide range of animals and plants suddenly died out, from tiny marine organisms to large dinosaurs. Scientists estimate that at least 99.9 percent of all species of plants and animals that ever lived are now extinct. Man had nothing to do with thishttp://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/dinosaurs/extinction/mass.phpEveryone seems to forget that earth went through a "Little Ice Age" in the past 1000 years that had nothing to do with "mankind" Scientists have identified two causes of the Little Ice Age from outside the ocean/atmosphere/land systems: decreased solar activity and increased volcanic activity.Case in point. In 1815 there was a volcano eruption of Tambora in Indonesia which blanketed the atmosphere with ash; the following year, 1816, came to be known as the Year Without A Summer, when frost and snow were reported in June and July in both New England and Northern Europe. Many scientists believe that the Earth's climate is still recovering from the Little Ice Age and that human activity is not the decisive factor in present temperature trendshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_AgeMans impact is inconsequential compared to nature (though it is not zero)Earth will survive

 

[Tereza]

Because we need external forces to compel us

jviss...Cause we are shameless wasters, and it must stop.Fuel taxes work better in Europe...it's not perfect there either, but their fuel prices are 75% tax - our prices are approaching theirs, but we pay ~15% tax...hmmm...I wonder where that money goes...When we have billboard trucks traveling cities and highways with a giant ad, burning fuel for absolutely no purpose other than ad exposure, our prices are too low. When airplanes ply our beaches carrying banner ads, another sure sign that prices are too low. Look at any level (individual to corporate) and you see thougthless waste. It's unecessary, and bad economics.OldSalt - are you really comparing a comet strike to the Exxon Valdez? Or even a naturally occuring forest fire to the Romans' silting up of the Tiber? Do your grandkids live near any of the PCB-laced rivers in our country?No, Nagasaki and Hiroshima were not disasters that wiped out the planet, but please don't downplay our effectiveness at soiling our own bed.I don't care if global warming is real or not - I would really rather not see the earth polluted. What's not to get about this? Don't dump garbage into the sky and water! Nobody - you, me, or Exxon, or Intercontinental Hotels.Good grief! Look at some of the enviromental advances FedEx has pioneered - they are saving money, and being green. It CAN be profitable!(I try to be very green, in a variety of ways, but am not without sin for sure.)

 

[Old Salt]

Tereza, read again closely

Of course the Exxon Valdez was terrible(in fact I refused to buy Esso for years. Not because of the accident but rather because at first Exxon management tried to run away from any liabilities in cleaning up the spill)Of course we should do everything we can to be "green". My point is that no matter how much we do or don't do a natural phenomenom will have more impact.I am not getting emotional about this - just being factual. Of course we should do everything we can to keep the earth clean for us to live in. More importantly reversing local polution has shown that nature CAN recover, and sometimes in a much quicker time frame than expected. As noted earlier on some rivers that less than 50 years ago were thought to be hopelessI think we agree on thatBUT the bottom line FACT is - History has shown that nature has effected this earth over its lifetime MUCH MUCH more than man. So mankind could become the greenest things possible and it still might not mean a thing if good old nature rolled us "snake eyes"ok you might view this as fatalistic. I consider it unemotional science

 

[jviss]

So, move to Europe!

I, for one, don't have any interest in the U.S. becoming anything like Europe. But I would liek to hear how "fuel taxes work better in Europe."

 

[Udjat]

Why are some harbors cleaner?

Ctskip and Ross, I agree that there are some harbors, rivers, and lakes that are cleaner now. Air quality in a lot of US cities is better than decades ago. Ever wonder why? Probably because some people that were considered environmental wackos back then managed to get big government to pressure businesses to cut back on toxic dumping into those rivers, harbors, lakes, the air, etc. Lots of bitching and moaning from the usual suspects but I can see the results from where I live. You guys are right, we can solve big problems.

 

[JungleJetJock]

RE: jviss

Yes, my tonge was firmly planted in cheekAlthough, it would be nice if power boaters were more curteous and actually knew the rules of rightaway (and followed them)

 

[jviss]

I figured it was...

" Yes, my tonge was firmly planted in cheekAlthough, it would be nice if power boaters were more curteous and actually knew the rules of rightaway (and followed them)"Yes, I thought so. I've found most power boaters are O.K., but it's just that the ones who aren't are so disruptive. But, that's life on the water, I guess.

 

[Tereza]

Fact - many industrialized countries are greener

jviss - I did! (Move to Europe.) But I did come back - it's nice here too!As to asking how fuel taxes work better - book a ticket over, then take a train to anywhere, drive on the autobahn, and visit a recycling and compost plant. All these things work well, and are often exemplary. There is much we can teach each other about what we all do well. Old Salt - you're right - we agree - where we differ is that I have great fear that your "hard facts" statement provides those who are less responsible (or who have no kids) with the ammo needed to just shrug all this off and say - "there's no point in improving the status quo".Great banter here - I'm glad to see such fervor on this topic!

 

[jviss]

I have...

...been all over Europe on business and for pleasure. The reason there is rail in Europe is the enormous rail subsidies - none of these railroads are solvent on their own, they require socialist governments to operate. This is even true in Japan. Far fewer "poor" people in Europe drive than in the U.S. becaue fuel is so expensive, as are auto taxes. You'll ever have a European railway system in hometown America, since America is so free and BIG!

 

[Ctskip]

Udjat

True "most" rivers and streams and lakes are much cleaner now, than they were just a few years ago. As is our air. Now, I ask that you go down to the bay immediately after a heavy rain fall and look at the sewage flowing into the harbors coming from our cities sewage treatment plants. This, in time, will be cleaned and all will be forgotten in 50 years. Just as the internal combustion motor is being faded out. The earth will survive with or without us. It makes no difference what we do. Sure you can claim to be "green" and do all you can do. Again this doesn't amount to much on the grand scale . We here in America can do all that can be done (not really, but lets look on the positive side) and it still won't amount much. I came from Connecticut 7 yrs ago, and there was no burning of anything there, and mandatory recycling. Land fills were full up. Here in Oklahoma, they still burn and no recycling of any kind, that I have seen. So much for being green. Where's the concerted effort? There is none anywhere. Besides fires and famine and drought and earthquakes and tsunamis. The rain forest is still being cut down for food. Which would you rather have if you lived next to the forest? Food or an ozone layer? The world will survive, just as it has for millions of years, with or with out us. We have NO CONTROL over which way or when it's going to happen. Sure we can do what we feel is socially responsible and politically correct. But the real fact is ...it's just for show, and of course money. Keep it up, Ctskip

 

[abe]

Jviss, I love it when I agree with someone 100%..

on this topic...and disagree on the Brian selling his boat topic. I too have been to many european countries and lived in one of them as a kid. No such thing as a 16yo getting a car...not because they are "green", but they can't afford the 100% sales/import tax and the $8/gal gas. In Italy and Greece all their marbel monuments are black and gray because of pollution...their little deisel cars (last time I checked the White House was still white). Most european autos can't meet US emmissions standards...the Mercedes you buy over there is not the same as the one here. Third world countries cant afford the basic necessities for their citizens...many dump raw sewage into the sea and the big rivers. In the USA you can drink the sewage water after its process. No one has to get immunized with Hepatitis A when they come to this country! Ever wonder why wine became so popular in europe...safer than drinking tap water. The only thing I think they are "greener" then us is that in many european countries they are 80-100% nuke for electrical energy. Have you seen the canals in Holland and Venice...yuk.. In Amsterdam many who live on board boats dump raw sewage into their canals..yuk. We pollute more than anyone on earth because we produce more than anyone and we feed the world. If you measure pollution produced per energy consumed...we are the least polluting country in the world (no one wants to measure pollution produced that way...makes the USA look too good)).Sorry, too much ignorance out there who get influenced by the media and the "world". The rest of the world can't compete with us...their solution is to destroy our industries by making us think we are the "worst polluters in the world" and sign a bunch of hypocrital laws. If they do what they tell us...we will be like them.. with 10-12%unemployment and a wellfare state.Russia, Norway, Japan still hunt whales. The Med has been fished out of existance. The Northsea is full of oil platforms. Most european countries are filthy and dirty (okay Stockholm,Sweden is nice)..yeap they are "green". If you ask most european what impresses them the most when they visit the USA.."how clean it is". Oh, yes we have free bathrooms in many places that you can use. Ever wanted to take a piss while in line for the Eiffel Tower?... I rest my case.Oh, I forgot..ever wonder why so many european boats have tinny little holding tanks or none at all. Yes, those "green" europeans poop too...directly into the nearby waters. One last thing....ever wonder why there are so few forests in europe...thats right they cutt most of them down. abe

 

[Benny]

No it doesn't make feel any greener.

I picked up sailing because it presented a challange; the harnesing of the wind, the facing of the ocean, slow, quiet and peaceful yet violent at times. The fact that we burn little fuel is just a plus, espcially at today's prices. I feel the oceans are so vast that whatever pollution we boaters bring will be diluted with no adverse effect. When you look at pollution look at the major fuel burners like Airlines, Power Plants, natural fires and automobiles. All power consumers are contributors to power plant emissions. On the other side of the equation, deforestation, dams and divertion of rivers are part of the same problem. The future of this planet will come from exploration of the underwater frontier and its vast resources. In the meantime fair winds.