Can anyone share their experience, good or bad, buying sails over the internet from this company: fareastsails.com?
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Never heard of 'em
You're wise to ask for folks' opinions. Caveat emptor and all that, you know. You might ask the company for references and while you're at it, check out the sails that this site's chandlery offers! (shameless plug)
LaDonna
You're wise to ask for folks' opinions. Caveat emptor and all that, you know. You might ask the company for references and while you're at it, check out the sails that this site's chandlery offers! (shameless plug)
LaDonnaIt's true........
Yup, it's true. The original sails for my 1983 Mac 25 has a label that states, "Custom made for MacGregor....made in Hong Kong." There seems to be more hand sewing of leather at the corners than with other manufactured sails. However, they are very well made. Can't complain about quality. In 1965 I had three custom made suits made in Hong Kong. Best fitting suits I ever owned! The same workmanship applies to those original sails.
Yup, it's true. The original sails for my 1983 Mac 25 has a label that states, "Custom made for MacGregor....made in Hong Kong." There seems to be more hand sewing of leather at the corners than with other manufactured sails. However, they are very well made. Can't complain about quality. In 1965 I had three custom made suits made in Hong Kong. Best fitting suits I ever owned! The same workmanship applies to those original sails.
Good sailmakers make good neighbours.
I'd be REALLY wary of buying something as important as sails from some offshore 'trading company' (especially if it's China) that has never seen the boat in question. Patronise your friendly neighbourhood sailmaker. He will come onto your boat, measure stuff himself, answer your questions, keep in frequent contact with you as he works for you, and deliver you a good suit of sails for which he will take responsibility-- or mend if they're in any way wrong. In turn he will patronise whatever business you are in. What comes around goes around. JC
I'd be REALLY wary of buying something as important as sails from some offshore 'trading company' (especially if it's China) that has never seen the boat in question. Patronise your friendly neighbourhood sailmaker. He will come onto your boat, measure stuff himself, answer your questions, keep in frequent contact with you as he works for you, and deliver you a good suit of sails for which he will take responsibility-- or mend if they're in any way wrong. In turn he will patronise whatever business you are in. What comes around goes around. JC
Keep it up guys!
Keep it up! We cannot purchase a towel, a shirt, a pair of shoes or anything else that is made from textiles that is made in the USA. If we keep up supporting off shore mfg (especially of cheap labor items) we can start burying another industry. What really fries my weiner is the fact that you really do not save the amount of money that equates to their cheap labor prices. Someone in the US doing this job is probably make $12-18/hour and these off shore people are probably make $10-20 per day. Where is all of the difference in cost going? NOT IN YOUR POCKET, but in the pocket of the people running these off shore shops. We make these offshore companies pockets fatter, while getting someone here in the US a pink slip. Just something to think about.
Keep it up! We cannot purchase a towel, a shirt, a pair of shoes or anything else that is made from textiles that is made in the USA. If we keep up supporting off shore mfg (especially of cheap labor items) we can start burying another industry. What really fries my weiner is the fact that you really do not save the amount of money that equates to their cheap labor prices. Someone in the US doing this job is probably make $12-18/hour and these off shore people are probably make $10-20 per day. Where is all of the difference in cost going? NOT IN YOUR POCKET, but in the pocket of the people running these off shore shops. We make these offshore companies pockets fatter, while getting someone here in the US a pink slip. Just something to think about.
Made in US doesn't necessarily mean...
...expensive. While all of the quotes I got from US companies, i.e. Doyle, Hood, Banks, etc., were all what I consider outrageous for no-frills cookie-cutter sails, I did manage to get a nice set from Cruising Direct in Newport, RI for $1300.00 delivered. CD is a division of North Sails and handles everything for boats 30' and under. I almost went to an off-shore company because the savings was so great. I did get a new main for my previous boat from Lee Sails in NY (made in Hong Kong) and that was only $650.00 delivered with a new Sunbrella sail cover. The sail fit perfectly and performed every bit as good as expected. A new suit of sails from one of the US makers, mentioned previously, for my present boat was going to cost between $3,600 - $4,500! The prospect of saving a couple of thousand or more is certainly a temptation to go off-shore. The problem I have found with people bashing off-shore makers is that none of these people (at least the ones I have spoken with) ever purchased one. As a matter-of-fact, these people didn't lump in the Canadian, European or UK sailmakers with the off-shore companies. I think it all boils down to the politics of the Asian companies...people are just plain biased against them. While I endeavor to buy American, that is not always possible these days. Most everything is either made in Asia somewhere or assembled in the US with off-shore parts. Just my two-cents (US) Cheers, Bob
...expensive. While all of the quotes I got from US companies, i.e. Doyle, Hood, Banks, etc., were all what I consider outrageous for no-frills cookie-cutter sails, I did manage to get a nice set from Cruising Direct in Newport, RI for $1300.00 delivered. CD is a division of North Sails and handles everything for boats 30' and under. I almost went to an off-shore company because the savings was so great. I did get a new main for my previous boat from Lee Sails in NY (made in Hong Kong) and that was only $650.00 delivered with a new Sunbrella sail cover. The sail fit perfectly and performed every bit as good as expected. A new suit of sails from one of the US makers, mentioned previously, for my present boat was going to cost between $3,600 - $4,500! The prospect of saving a couple of thousand or more is certainly a temptation to go off-shore. The problem I have found with people bashing off-shore makers is that none of these people (at least the ones I have spoken with) ever purchased one. As a matter-of-fact, these people didn't lump in the Canadian, European or UK sailmakers with the off-shore companies. I think it all boils down to the politics of the Asian companies...people are just plain biased against them. While I endeavor to buy American, that is not always possible these days. Most everything is either made in Asia somewhere or assembled in the US with off-shore parts. Just my two-cents (US) Cheers, Bob
Something wrong with those price differences.
Bob: First there is something wrong with $3600-4500 for sails for a 27' boat. Mind you I am not disagreeing with you. When getting quotes for sails a buyer needs to do their home work. All cloth and hardware are NOT created equal. If you think that getting a quote based on saying you want 6 or 7 oz. cloth is enough, it is not. The price of cloth and hardware is a major portion of the price of the sail. This should be fairly equal no matter where you go. The next item is the quality of the stitching and thread. Then we have the actual cut of the sail. While they may be able to cut costs on labor, there is very little other savings you are going to find offshore. So if you find that you are saving $2-3K (on a $4500 purchase) offshore, I would be VERY leary.
Bob: First there is something wrong with $3600-4500 for sails for a 27' boat. Mind you I am not disagreeing with you. When getting quotes for sails a buyer needs to do their home work. All cloth and hardware are NOT created equal. If you think that getting a quote based on saying you want 6 or 7 oz. cloth is enough, it is not. The price of cloth and hardware is a major portion of the price of the sail. This should be fairly equal no matter where you go. The next item is the quality of the stitching and thread. Then we have the actual cut of the sail. While they may be able to cut costs on labor, there is very little other savings you are going to find offshore. So if you find that you are saving $2-3K (on a $4500 purchase) offshore, I would be VERY leary.
Buyer Beware
The OEM sails for my boat were UK made in the far east (Hong Kong or where ever). When work needed to be done, say adding in another reef point, I would take them to the local lofts to get quotes. Although they had nothing to gain, nearly every loft commented about the construction and the materials: The main bolt rope had an unusual attachment to the luff, the fabric was "stretchy", never seen anything like "that" before (refering to the leach line adjustment setup), etc. The comments were a result of giving me a price for doing the work and not to "slam" the original maker of the sails, this I can be sure as there was no effort to sell new sails or anything else beyond the job at hand. It should be noted that I believe, in fact, I'm positive, the sails were imported by a US office of UK so even though Hunter was dealing with a major world wide loft the assembly and construction of the sails were not standard and the materials were less than "quality". The sails were probably made around '87 or '88 since my boat is an '88 model year boat. Maybe things have changed since then(?). A few years ago I was geting quotes for replacing the sails and in my discussions with Lee Sails I had a difficult time getting them to stay with a particular known quality name fabric. They kept trying to switch me to another fabric that was "just as good". How would I know what fabric I finally got? I wouldn't. The Hunters have a B&R rig, will the off shore loft that doesn't come out and measure your rig take into account the bend of the mast? Will they discuss the amount of head stay sag you want? There are a number of details that one can discuss with the local loft that you can't with a mail order loft so in that sense one gets what one pays for. It seems that either one knows so much about sail materials and construction that you can feel comfortable specifying what you want and checking it when it arrives, or, one knows so little that it doesn't matter. The cheap prices can be tempting. Kinda like buying stocks or bonds that have really good rates of return. Recommend buyer beware.
The OEM sails for my boat were UK made in the far east (Hong Kong or where ever). When work needed to be done, say adding in another reef point, I would take them to the local lofts to get quotes. Although they had nothing to gain, nearly every loft commented about the construction and the materials: The main bolt rope had an unusual attachment to the luff, the fabric was "stretchy", never seen anything like "that" before (refering to the leach line adjustment setup), etc. The comments were a result of giving me a price for doing the work and not to "slam" the original maker of the sails, this I can be sure as there was no effort to sell new sails or anything else beyond the job at hand. It should be noted that I believe, in fact, I'm positive, the sails were imported by a US office of UK so even though Hunter was dealing with a major world wide loft the assembly and construction of the sails were not standard and the materials were less than "quality". The sails were probably made around '87 or '88 since my boat is an '88 model year boat. Maybe things have changed since then(?). A few years ago I was geting quotes for replacing the sails and in my discussions with Lee Sails I had a difficult time getting them to stay with a particular known quality name fabric. They kept trying to switch me to another fabric that was "just as good". How would I know what fabric I finally got? I wouldn't. The Hunters have a B&R rig, will the off shore loft that doesn't come out and measure your rig take into account the bend of the mast? Will they discuss the amount of head stay sag you want? There are a number of details that one can discuss with the local loft that you can't with a mail order loft so in that sense one gets what one pays for. It seems that either one knows so much about sail materials and construction that you can feel comfortable specifying what you want and checking it when it arrives, or, one knows so little that it doesn't matter. The cheap prices can be tempting. Kinda like buying stocks or bonds that have really good rates of return. Recommend buyer beware.
Steve...
All I wanted was a set of sails to the specs of the original Neil Prydes that were on the boat. I discussed all aspects with the sailmakers and these are the estimates they came up with. I do not race my boat, nor did I require anything high tech. I just wanted spec Dacron sails. Aside from the prices quoted, these sailmakers also insisted that I would not be happy with what I was asking for and gave it the old college try to convince me otherwise. I actually hung up on one sailmaker because he continued to go on about an issue that I told him was not open for further discussion. I knew what I wanted, was happy with what I wanted. All I needed was a quote for what I wanted. None of these sailmakers asked me for rig dimensions, they all knew what the dimensions were. I have to believe that I would not be the only 272LE these guys ever made a sail for. Based on their quotes I can only come to the conclusion that either: a. They over-quoted because they do not want to be bothered with building spec sails or b. They made the price close to their high-tech stuff so that I might say Oh...what the heck...for the extra few bucks go high-tech. I did my homework, requested many quotes including hardware and material manufacturers. By the way, one point I disagree on...the most expensive part of the new set of sails is the manufacturer's advertising budget. It makes up around half of what you're paying depending on the company. The huge difference in price is not necessarily indicative of quality. Rather it's a direct reflection of how much a company puts into advertising. I appreciate your input, Steve. But even after I finished all of my research and completed all of my "homework" I could not believe the prices that these guys were looking for. I don't know, maybe I'm just a cheapskate. But bottom line is you can get quality for a reasonable price. Cheers, Bob
All I wanted was a set of sails to the specs of the original Neil Prydes that were on the boat. I discussed all aspects with the sailmakers and these are the estimates they came up with. I do not race my boat, nor did I require anything high tech. I just wanted spec Dacron sails. Aside from the prices quoted, these sailmakers also insisted that I would not be happy with what I was asking for and gave it the old college try to convince me otherwise. I actually hung up on one sailmaker because he continued to go on about an issue that I told him was not open for further discussion. I knew what I wanted, was happy with what I wanted. All I needed was a quote for what I wanted. None of these sailmakers asked me for rig dimensions, they all knew what the dimensions were. I have to believe that I would not be the only 272LE these guys ever made a sail for. Based on their quotes I can only come to the conclusion that either: a. They over-quoted because they do not want to be bothered with building spec sails or b. They made the price close to their high-tech stuff so that I might say Oh...what the heck...for the extra few bucks go high-tech. I did my homework, requested many quotes including hardware and material manufacturers. By the way, one point I disagree on...the most expensive part of the new set of sails is the manufacturer's advertising budget. It makes up around half of what you're paying depending on the company. The huge difference in price is not necessarily indicative of quality. Rather it's a direct reflection of how much a company puts into advertising. I appreciate your input, Steve. But even after I finished all of my research and completed all of my "homework" I could not believe the prices that these guys were looking for. I don't know, maybe I'm just a cheapskate. But bottom line is you can get quality for a reasonable price. Cheers, Bob
Some of them just don't get it.
Bob: Sometimes these guys just don't get it do they. You tell them what you want and they try to talk you out of it. I agree that if you talk to 3 or 4 sailmakers and they all give you the same scoop, you need to re-evaluate your decision. But, they really should want and CHERISH you business. My sailmaker did the same thing to me. I wanted two full and two partial battens and got four full!?*%$. I paid $2000 for a full batten, double reef point, Dutch Flaking System and Dutchman cars, 9oz. Challenger cloth. They came and measure and install the sail and the Dutchman too. This was for a H'31 (2 years ago). They DO NOT need your dimensions for most boats for a quote. They really only need to get the dimensions at the time they cut the sails. If you are going with a local sailmaker, they will probably want to take their own measurements if the boat is close by. This site does not have sails listed for your boat, but I bet if you call Bly, she can get you some prices that are middle of the road and good quality. You will also not get any better service for a mail-order product ANYWHERE!
Bob: Sometimes these guys just don't get it do they. You tell them what you want and they try to talk you out of it. I agree that if you talk to 3 or 4 sailmakers and they all give you the same scoop, you need to re-evaluate your decision. But, they really should want and CHERISH you business. My sailmaker did the same thing to me. I wanted two full and two partial battens and got four full!?*%$. I paid $2000 for a full batten, double reef point, Dutch Flaking System and Dutchman cars, 9oz. Challenger cloth. They came and measure and install the sail and the Dutchman too. This was for a H'31 (2 years ago). They DO NOT need your dimensions for most boats for a quote. They really only need to get the dimensions at the time they cut the sails. If you are going with a local sailmaker, they will probably want to take their own measurements if the boat is close by. This site does not have sails listed for your boat, but I bet if you call Bly, she can get you some prices that are middle of the road and good quality. You will also not get any better service for a mail-order product ANYWHERE!
Sails
Bob you are absolutely correct. I purchased a Lee sail which was built offshore but supported by the local distributer. Excellent sail for the money. Less than 1/2 price of a major U.S. loft. Most products we consume in the USA have some kind of foreign investment incorporated in them.
Bob you are absolutely correct. I purchased a Lee sail which was built offshore but supported by the local distributer. Excellent sail for the money. Less than 1/2 price of a major U.S. loft. Most products we consume in the USA have some kind of foreign investment incorporated in them.
I feel your pain, Steve...
They really just don't get it. Give me what I want. You may be the sailmaker, but that doesn't make me an idiot. When I called Chuck Allen at Cruising Direct, he did exactly what I wanted. Sure, he made a couple of suggestions, but nothing that amounted to mega-bucks. Just a change in the type of hardware for my reefing point. I was treated fairly and professionally and not like someone who didn't know what he was talking about. What I ended up with was a beautiful set of sails and a terrific gennaker, snuffer, launch bag and sheets to boot! All at a most reasonable price that would make these other guys choke. And you're right, Dave, I know several people who purchased from Lee Sails and are very happy. However, it took off-shore companies selling cut-rate sails for one of the heavy-hitters in the US (North) to give them a run for their money by forming CD Sails. Now I get fair pricing AND local service. What I really enjoy is a forum like this where we can exchange thoughts and ideas on the subject freely. Cheers all, Bob
They really just don't get it. Give me what I want. You may be the sailmaker, but that doesn't make me an idiot. When I called Chuck Allen at Cruising Direct, he did exactly what I wanted. Sure, he made a couple of suggestions, but nothing that amounted to mega-bucks. Just a change in the type of hardware for my reefing point. I was treated fairly and professionally and not like someone who didn't know what he was talking about. What I ended up with was a beautiful set of sails and a terrific gennaker, snuffer, launch bag and sheets to boot! All at a most reasonable price that would make these other guys choke. And you're right, Dave, I know several people who purchased from Lee Sails and are very happy. However, it took off-shore companies selling cut-rate sails for one of the heavy-hitters in the US (North) to give them a run for their money by forming CD Sails. Now I get fair pricing AND local service. What I really enjoy is a forum like this where we can exchange thoughts and ideas on the subject freely. Cheers all, Bob
After all guys... its a world market place
Seems like we are truely in a world wide market with the world getting smaller every day. I love supporting local sail makers as well as other suppliers for my boat needs. However, we are all squeezed by this slow down and as a person in business for myself, I have to protect my assets. This means either doing without (in most cases) or shopping hard and trying to make the best choice based on my gut feelings. I want a cruising spinaker really bad, but I decided I would use it less than I would a autopilot at near the same price. The spinaker will have to wait for another season. I purchased the autopilot online, out of state, saving by price, rebate coupon from purchase and no sales tax and no shipping charges. No brainer for me.
Seems like we are truely in a world wide market with the world getting smaller every day. I love supporting local sail makers as well as other suppliers for my boat needs. However, we are all squeezed by this slow down and as a person in business for myself, I have to protect my assets. This means either doing without (in most cases) or shopping hard and trying to make the best choice based on my gut feelings. I want a cruising spinaker really bad, but I decided I would use it less than I would a autopilot at near the same price. The spinaker will have to wait for another season. I purchased the autopilot online, out of state, saving by price, rebate coupon from purchase and no sales tax and no shipping charges. No brainer for me.
Thanks for the lively debate, but....
Apparently, none of us has any personal experience with this company. I can always ask the company for references. I too am sensitive to the issues that were raised in this discussion. Let me throw in my two cents worth. First, if you have ever bought a new sailboat, or if it was used and still had factory sails on it, chances are they were made overseas. And they were probably made overseas in a factory that used sweat labor. I think it also should be pointed out that not all overseas manufacturers, be they sailmakers or otherwise, treat their employees poorly. We cannot assume that because it comes from Asia, exploitation of labor was involved. Plus, where do you draw the line? Nearly every item for sale in America today has connections to Asia or Southeast Asia. Made in USA still makes a difference to me, but often there is no choice. Good sailmakers do make good neighbors, and I just spent over $300.00 with mine, doing some much needed repairs. If budget were no issue, I would gladly let them make my new sails. Unfortunately, it is an issue. I have combed the used sail market in hopes of finding something to replace my hopelessly worn out rags, but to no avail. Personally, I too think we have to accept that it is a world market and we should use all of the resources available to us to be informed, smart shoppers.
Apparently, none of us has any personal experience with this company. I can always ask the company for references. I too am sensitive to the issues that were raised in this discussion. Let me throw in my two cents worth. First, if you have ever bought a new sailboat, or if it was used and still had factory sails on it, chances are they were made overseas. And they were probably made overseas in a factory that used sweat labor. I think it also should be pointed out that not all overseas manufacturers, be they sailmakers or otherwise, treat their employees poorly. We cannot assume that because it comes from Asia, exploitation of labor was involved. Plus, where do you draw the line? Nearly every item for sale in America today has connections to Asia or Southeast Asia. Made in USA still makes a difference to me, but often there is no choice. Good sailmakers do make good neighbors, and I just spent over $300.00 with mine, doing some much needed repairs. If budget were no issue, I would gladly let them make my new sails. Unfortunately, it is an issue. I have combed the used sail market in hopes of finding something to replace my hopelessly worn out rags, but to no avail. Personally, I too think we have to accept that it is a world market and we should use all of the resources available to us to be informed, smart shoppers.
Some Things to Consider
A couple of years ago I did some extensive shopping for a new jib at the Pacific Sail Expo. I talked to every sail maker imaginable from the top of the line down to the offshore "internet" sailmaker. The problem with an off market vendor is you just don't know what you are getting in terms of quality. Dacron comes in many different grades as well as weights and can you be sure of getting the appropriate density in the weave? One sailmaker was willing to make me a radial cut jib - in Dacron! Dacron, having the wrong stretch properties was the worst possible material for that kind of sail. Needless to say, it wasn't a confidence builder for the sailmaker not to understand his materials. For that matter will you be getting Dupont Dacron or some other brand? Will your sail have the proper design? I talked to one vendor who made the exact same jib for both a C34 (130%) and a C30 tall rig (155%). I was told that this was a good thing as they could "economize". I know one of us would have had problems passing muster getting a PHRF measurement with that sail. Is the sail designed for your local conditions or is it designed around an "average" cord? A deeply cut jib won't do you much good if you have predominately windy conditions. Will it be constructed well? I wasn't that impressed with the internet company's workmanship. Seams were either single or double stitched when they should have been double and triple stitched. Threads weren't tied off. The reinforcements around the tack, clew and head felt flimsy. This sail was about half the cost of one from a top tier company and to me, was only half as good. I was thankful that he brought that sail to the show and not something that was "dolled up" as I know I would have been disappointed if I went with that maker. I think that pretty much all the national as well as many local sail makers build new sails offshore, utilizing their local lofts for mainly repairs. What you are getting, IMHO, from a domestic sail, is good design work, high standards in construction, good craftsmanship and a company that will stand behind their work So if something goes wrong, they will be there to fix it. My sailmaker has been to the boat several times, sailed with me, made adjustments and even took pictures of the sailshape. With offshore vendors, once that check clears, you are pretty much on your own. I must confess that I am on the performance side of the spectrum. I am willing to spend the extra money for a sail maker to make one custom to my boat's unique measurements. You would be surprised how much variation there is in production boat building. While the basic sail plan measurements are usually pretty close, there can be big differences in things like stay/shroud placement and where the fairlead track is bolted. Having someone throw those measurements into the computer and come up with the right sail is important to me. I would still go domestic if I was looking for a cruising sail, I might go to a second tier type sailmaker to save costs, but I definitely wouldn't go offshore.
A couple of years ago I did some extensive shopping for a new jib at the Pacific Sail Expo. I talked to every sail maker imaginable from the top of the line down to the offshore "internet" sailmaker. The problem with an off market vendor is you just don't know what you are getting in terms of quality. Dacron comes in many different grades as well as weights and can you be sure of getting the appropriate density in the weave? One sailmaker was willing to make me a radial cut jib - in Dacron! Dacron, having the wrong stretch properties was the worst possible material for that kind of sail. Needless to say, it wasn't a confidence builder for the sailmaker not to understand his materials. For that matter will you be getting Dupont Dacron or some other brand? Will your sail have the proper design? I talked to one vendor who made the exact same jib for both a C34 (130%) and a C30 tall rig (155%). I was told that this was a good thing as they could "economize". I know one of us would have had problems passing muster getting a PHRF measurement with that sail. Is the sail designed for your local conditions or is it designed around an "average" cord? A deeply cut jib won't do you much good if you have predominately windy conditions. Will it be constructed well? I wasn't that impressed with the internet company's workmanship. Seams were either single or double stitched when they should have been double and triple stitched. Threads weren't tied off. The reinforcements around the tack, clew and head felt flimsy. This sail was about half the cost of one from a top tier company and to me, was only half as good. I was thankful that he brought that sail to the show and not something that was "dolled up" as I know I would have been disappointed if I went with that maker. I think that pretty much all the national as well as many local sail makers build new sails offshore, utilizing their local lofts for mainly repairs. What you are getting, IMHO, from a domestic sail, is good design work, high standards in construction, good craftsmanship and a company that will stand behind their work So if something goes wrong, they will be there to fix it. My sailmaker has been to the boat several times, sailed with me, made adjustments and even took pictures of the sailshape. With offshore vendors, once that check clears, you are pretty much on your own. I must confess that I am on the performance side of the spectrum. I am willing to spend the extra money for a sail maker to make one custom to my boat's unique measurements. You would be surprised how much variation there is in production boat building. While the basic sail plan measurements are usually pretty close, there can be big differences in things like stay/shroud placement and where the fairlead track is bolted. Having someone throw those measurements into the computer and come up with the right sail is important to me. I would still go domestic if I was looking for a cruising sail, I might go to a second tier type sailmaker to save costs, but I definitely wouldn't go offshore.
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