Fairness of Pursuit Races?

[Kings Gambit]

My wife and I crewed in a pursuit race recently. Pursuit races are PHRF-handicapped races where the time handicaps are applied at the start of the race. Yachts with higher PHRF (e.g., 150) ratings will start earlier than yachts with lower (e.g., 105) ratings. The number of minutes earlier is determined by the seconds-per-mile owed the slower yacht multiplied by the distance of the race, & that product then divided by 60. In a 25 n.mi. race the yacht at PHRF 150 would start (45 sec/mile x 25 miles)/60 sec/min = 18.75 minutes earlier than the yacht at PHRF 105. If the handicaps are "fair" the yachts theoretically could finish at the same time. Sometimes it actually works when at the finish line as the yachts of a class correct out, there's great excitement as you work frantically to stay ahead of a faster yacht just long enough to cross the finish line before he can overtake!! Really heart-throbbing stuff!

My question arises, however, when the differences in start times, wide or narrow, bracket changes in conditions, such that they are not equivalent at the respective starts. For example, the earlier starter has to "go" in a lull while the later starter receives benefit of a freshening wind, or vice-versa. In that case the pursuit time handicap might be "erased" in the first few miles of a long race (now, not so exciting). I suppose it could be argued that it's no different than when a fast boat finishes a race earlier on a dying wind, leaving the slower yachts to wallow in much later. Is this why "classes" should be tight (i.e., narrow range of PHRFs)?

 

[Jackdaw]

Well first we have to accept that ANY handicap race is going to be unfair. It just a question to what degree. Pursuit races are no different.

The case you mention is the worst, at the first start time the breeze has not filled in and the first boats sit 100 yards off the line with the clock running. Then breeze fills in for the fast boat starts and they pass the slow boats within the first mile, and the race for them is over. In pursuit once you're passed you're pretty much toast.


Anything you can do? Well our SIs allow for the RC to move to standard start and race time-on-time PHRF if the breeze at the start is below 4 knots. That at least makes it fun and eliminates a preventable situation. Breeze dying at the end however; that's just racing.

Bands can help but now you're adding anther arbitrary rating on top of an existing one. MORE controversy! ;^)

 

[Sandy Stone]

Well, handicap races are never really "fair", especially with PHRF, which attempts to even out different boats with a single number across all conditions. In reality, some boats do better in light conditions, some in heavy, some upwind, some downwind. If you happen to get "your conditions" in a handicap race, you're golden. I can testify to that. So a pursuit race is really no worse than any other type of course. And people complain about their handicaps, or those of other boats, but in my experience a race is seldom decided by the amount of time allowed by the handicap system.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Breeze dying at the end however; that's just racing.

Could not that be applied at ANY time during a race? I understand the concept. But we tend to have nice long races here because the breeze is "usually" there here in San Francisco. But during our winter races, it's flukey, and we have seen what most of the rest of you see on a regular basis: wind holes, fickle winds, changing direction.

It would seem to me, from a purely statistical approach, that for any given day, whether the race was normal or pursuit, with the same boats on the same course, would it make any difference at all? Help me understand, thanks.

 

[Jackdaw]

Could not that be applied at ANY time during a race? I understand the concept. But we tend to have nice long races here because the breeze is "usually" there here in San Francisco. But during our winter races, it's flukey, and we have seen what most of the rest of you see on a regular basis: wind holes, fickle winds, changing direction.

It would seem to me, from a purely statistical approach, that for any given day, whether the race was normal or pursuit, with the same boats on the same course, would it make any difference at all? Help me understand, thanks.

That is kinda my point. ;^) Once you start a race what happens happens, and there is little an RC can do no matter what kind of race. Thats what I meant by 'Thats racing'.

But comparing the two types, with pursuit racing wind dying at the finish is actually more fair as all the boats in contention should be there at the same time. In typical gun starts, a fading breeze favors faster boats that finish in it. Slower boats that can only hope to correct over them are hosed as they drift in 30 minutes after a fast boat finished in breeze.

 

[uncledom]

The one bonus in a slower boat starting first given any other variable can make or break you is that you have an opportunity at strategy including holding a line while fetching the mark to force a competitor to your leward side. At least it makes the race more exciting! Occasionally we beat the A fleet to the first mark and it creates absolute chaos having us in the mix.

 

[Davidasailor26]

It would seem to me, from a purely statistical approach, that for any given day, whether the race was normal or pursuit, with the same boats on the same course, would it make any difference at all? Help me understand, thanks.

The timing of the lulls and puffs does make a difference in a handicapped race. In general, the faster rated boats will complete the course in less time, so there's some amount of time when the slower boats are on the course and the faster ones aren't. In a pursuit race that's at the start, and in a traditional race it's at the end. If there is a lull during that extra time, then the slower boats are forced to sail the same distance in less wind, leaving them disadvantaged. I crewed on a boat that was rated on the faster side of our fleet, in a climate that tended to have dying winds as evenings progressed - that was fun.

 

[Kings Gambit]

The timing of the lulls and puffs does make a difference in a handicapped race. In general, the faster rated boats will complete the course in less time, so there's some amount of time when the slower boats are on the course and the faster ones aren't. In a pursuit race that's at the start, and in a traditional race it's at the end. If there is a lull during that extra time, then the slower boats are forced to sail the same distance in less wind, leaving them disadvantaged. I crewed on a boat that was rated on the faster side of our fleet, in a climate that tended to have dying winds as evenings progressed - that was fun.

Yachts forming a class where the spread of PHRF ratings is narrow would be better insulated from variation of conditions. The boats would all be on the course together more of the time, especially in a short race. In a PHRF class with a range of say, 99 to 111, in a 25 n.m. race, the slowest would start only 5 min ahead of the fastest. In an 8 mile race, it would start less than 2 min ahead. If you stretched JD's rule to say no starting of the sequence in air less than 4 kt, you would, I believe, increase the sporting competitiveness of that race. Narrow-range classes would likely have to be small, however; perhaps only two yachts in each!!

Why even do a pursuit race? They work well if going far from harbor, e.g., with a long outbound leg and then inbound leg the next day, b/c a race committee boat does not have to travel the distance to start an inbound leg. Just give everyone a start time (or delay interval) and a starting line/position, even if an imaginary GPS "line." (This is far less stressful to new racers than a rabbit start.)

http://opcyc.org/sites/default/files/Rabbit Start_0.pdf

 

[capta]

After racing seven seasons in Frisco Bay, I found that the winners usually won consistently over the season, be it division or class sailing.
Of course there are going to be those bad days, like having zero wind with the current driving you right at Alcatraz, in the days when the guards would actually shoot at you if you got too close, but that's what gives one the incentive to be inventive, right? Nobody carried a "rule satisfier' anchor and ground tackle in those days!

 

[Jackdaw]

Yachts forming a class where the spread of PHRF ratings is narrow would be better insulated from variation of conditions. The boats would all be on the course together more of the time, especially in a short race. In a PHRF class with a range of say, 99 to 111, in a 25 n.m. race, the slowest would start only 5 min ahead of the fastest. In an 8 mile race, it would start less than 2 min ahead. If you stretched JD's rule to say no starting of the sequence in air less than 4 kt, you would, I believe, increase the sporting competitiveness of that race. Narrow-range classes would likely have to be small, however; perhaps only two yachts in each!!

Why even do a pursuit race? They work well if going far from harbor, e.g., with a long outbound leg and then inbound leg the next day, b/c a race committee boat does not have to travel the distance to start an inbound leg. Just give everyone a start time (or delay interval) and a starting line/position, even if an imaginary GPS "line." (This is far less stressful to new racers than doing a rabbit start.)

http://opcyc.org/sites/default/files/Rabbit Start_0.pdf

Banding CAN help, but like all things PHRF it depends. Its very common for two boats with identical ratings to have vastly different sailing capabilities, most often a short very weatherly boat vs a longer crusier.

Our fleet has several rating groups that interest us; 5 of us at 72-75, all 35 foot-ish mostly racers that go to weather very well. And then we have a group in the 110-120 range, 40+ cruisers that are sailed pretty well but don't have nearly the weather performance. But they waterline us.

Our biggest pursuit race is a 38NM affair across Lake Superior (narrow at this point) to Silver Bay MN. It's mostly NW, and if there is a typical NW breeze the 75ers simply crush the 110s, both on the water and on handicap.

But if we see a NE breeze, we've got a problem. the 75s tight-reach up with crew on the rail and spinnakers on the very edge, while chugging right next to us are the 110s, genoa-reaching while drinking coffee in the cockpit. And we owe them almost a minute a mile. PHRF racing!

 

[Jackdaw]

Oh two other things:
Our SIs allow for the RC to start the race ON TIME with an all-go gun start. We don't push back the start for breeze (but you could, but why wait?). That's the beauty of distance racing; unlike a W/L race you can start it in any breeze from any direction. Even none from nowhere!

Totally agree about the RC not having to travel to distance shores to finish the race. That's the big attraction for us at Silver Bay. It would be 100s of dollars in gas, and crossing the open lake in a small cabin cruiser. Doable but you would not want to make a habit out of it. That plus we invite anyone to race (and enjoy the party). We pick up a new fleet member a year this way.

 

[druid]

The race I've done most (RNSA Nanaimo Single-handed) is a "group start": they group the boats by PHRF, and stagger the start by group. So you get your starting-line madness but don't get the situation where the fast boats take off and are never seen again by us slow folks. I've also done the "pursuit" style, where they let you do your own start based on PHRF, and the first one across the line is the winner (the computer-geeks hate this one cuz there's no fancy calculations to do mid-race!)
The Pursuit is best for "fun" races, but I think the "serious" racers prefer the group start.

As for "fairness", others have pointed out that pursuit style is not really any more or less fair than any other handicap system. I was "hosed" one year when the wind died at the finish: all the fast boats (even with the staggered group start) got across the line before the wind died, and I ended up 2 miles from the finish, cursing Aeolus for betraying me even after I gave him rum! Another time the wind was 25+ and I was doing pretty well in my Cal 25 when a guy in a Maple Leaf 48 came STEAMING by - I got a look at his face and all I could see was sunglasses and a BIG grin - this was HIS wind! (he won).

druid

 

[Jackdaw]

I was "hosed" one year when the wind died at the finish: all the fast boats (even with the staggered group start) got across the line before the wind died, and I ended up 2 miles from the finish, cursing Aeolus for betraying me even after I gave him rum!

In a pursuit race if you're two miles away from the finish line when the first boat finishes you are going to lose by a half and hour even if the wind stays up! This IS the nice part of pursuit races; if you're actually in the race you're RIGHT THERE at the finish. Everyone in contention has the same breeze at the end.

 

[BarryL]

Hey,
One of the things I like about a pursuit race is there is no waiting around to see who wins. You don't need to worry about finishing first and then some boat that finishes 10 minutes after you corrects in front. If you finish in front of someone you beat them. Also this way everyone should be at the party at about the same time too!

 

[william24424]

Great thread and ideas. I vote for narrow bands, even if your class turns into a match race. Pursuits are fun, but add the traditional start, once in a while, if possible, for a complete program. Sailboat racing is a fantastic way to sharpen your skills. PHRF doesn't handicap on boats condition, so it also motivates owners to tune rig, clean bottom, check systems, ect.

Good luck & keep racing....here is a same rated (153secs), Pearson 36 leading my Cal 33-2 after an hour of racing, sometimes he has the advantage of being heavier, other times, not so much....basically evens out over the season.

 

[Randy Rohrbeck]

It's a handicapped sailboat race. You're on the water with some friends. Enjoy the day and don't worry if it's fair or not.

 

[Kings Gambit]

As for "fairness", others have pointed out that pursuit style is not really any more or less fair than any other handicap system.

That may be true, but the handicapping system itself may be only part of "the problem" IMHO. PHRF handicapping is area-wide (e.g., Southern California PHRF area "C") to accommodate the prevailing (average?) conditions over the year. In Southern California conditions are on average--light. So, a yacht carrying a PHRF 105 in Southern California might get rated at PHRF 99 if racing in the Bay area of San Francisco. Clubs, however, tend to run the same courses over and over. These are typically courses that are convenient for RCs working out of nearby yacht clubs to apply, but they are also constrained by the physical geography of the region. The conditions (wind strength) expected along defined courses might vary from light (e.g., 3-5 kt) to moderate (e.g. 10-15 kt) and back again. A large, relatively heavy, boat on those courses will usually lose on corrected time to a smaller, lighter one b/c it rarely sees conditions all along the course favoring him, or that even match the area-wide average. More favorable conditions may occur in his rating area generally, but not evenly on that set of courses that his club uses. He's stuck w/ the overall area rating but where his courses raced mostly experience only the light to moderate end of the spectrum. The only solutions: buy a boat that does well in light conditions where your club races, or pick a set of courses to race on (i.e., of a yacht club or sailing club) somewhere where your boat will see its best performance chances. Otherwise, see yourself stuck at the inshore leeward mark in < 5 kt while the lighter guys drift by you and on to the finish line, time and time again!! There's no "evening out" here.

 

[Jackdaw]

It's always important, but with single-number PHRF it's critical to have a boat that sails well in all conditions if you want to do consistently well. It's no surprise you see J/35s, First367s, Express 37s consistently in the winners circle. These boats always sail to their rating and takes that out of the equation. They are also very quick for their length, which helps them get off the course as fast as possible. The other side is also true, the best racers typically end up in good boats. If you don't, frustration sets in. You rarely see the fleets hot skipper in a Catalina 355.

 

[Stu Jackson]

You rarely see the fleets hot skipper in a Catalina 355.

Too true!

And I know you meant that in a realistic and nice way.

What Jack says is a reality.

There is also another way to do it, since KG's last post discussed the larger issues of PHRF. And since the C355 is the successor to our C34s.

Except for the first few years of production and racing, the ONLY C34s that race regularly are those here in San Francisco. We've hosted the National Regatta more than any other fleets, the east coast sailors choose to NOT race, and we have both our own yearly SF Cup (Racing & Cruising one design divisions) and have enough racers to have our own one design divisions within the summer and winter series of other yacht clubs (winter: Golden Gate Yacht Club; summer Interclub Series hosted by a half dozen YCs around the Bay).

As a result, over the years we have developed very fair one design handicapping ratings. By this time, all but one of our regular racing boats all have the same handicaps, based on sails, props and other details. The one that doesn't is the only one with a tall rig among them.

So, the racing is left essentially only to the sailor's qualifications. One could argue that this isn't really PHRF anymore, since there aren't any corrections left to make for our one design fleets.

But until the final tweaks were made maybe five years ago, there always was some handicapping going on even in our one design fleet. I was fortunate enough to beat one of our other boats one race on corrected time, which is why we let him scream by us on a close encounter at the last mark before the finish.

It's been a very successful 28 years!

 

[Jackdaw]

Too true!

And I know you meant that in a realistic and nice way.
What Jack says is a reality.
There is also another way to do it, since KG's last post discussed the larger issues of PHRF. And since the C355 is the successor to our C34s.

Stu you're absolutely right. And I could have just as easily said Beneteau Oceanus 34. Same deal.

While unlikely to attract the best racers, going to One Design (or close) really changes the game and allows almost ANY boat to race at a high and fun level. That's where the frustration can set in for PHRF racers, getting beat because their boat is not up to it.

Good race boats sail to their rating in the widest ranges of wind, conditions, and courses. That takes a hull and rig and sailplan optimized for racing. It why and Oceanus 34 is 144 PHRF, and we're 75.

To your point, we have a huge fleet of Capri 25s at WYC. The biggest in the galaxy. 27 boats. They are just OK race boats, and the J/boat guys sniff at them, but they have an absolute BLAST while racing OD. Their sails are worth more than their hulls, and the races look like something out of NASCAR. If it's not rubbin' it's not racin'!

I feel like a total orphan with the First 260, she's the only one in the North America. Last spring I got an email inviting BlueJ to come to the First 260 OD championships in France. I wish!